God's Conditional Grace

[smaller]

Somebody that says they are a believer can be delusional....

Yeah, Jesus was told the same thing. I might consider similar statements to be complimentary:

Mark 3:
21 And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.

Paul, same deal:

Acts 26:24
And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.

Jesus gave believers many measures to know if they are 'in truth.' Here is my all time favorite:

Luke 6:26
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

followed closely by this one:

Luke 21:17
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

s

 

[BornAgain]

Do you know how many different baptism's are depicted in the scriptures???

Several. Fire, Spirit, Tongues, Prophesy, Water, Incantation etc.

Some have whittled it down to SEVEN.

And all different types via all kinds different ways.

Yet we also know there is but One Lord, one faith and One Baptism.

These kinds of contradictions, or so they may appear on the surface, are intentionally placed in the scriptures so that believers who read them take A CLOSER LOOK.

Paul for example experienced a form of Direct Visitation baptism by the Light of God in Christ AND HIS VOICE that put scales over his eyes and blinded him. Yet for the most part the others who were with him had a much different experience from that same event.

Peter experienced a form of baptism when Satan entered him and spoke through him and he didn't even realize it. Yet a key to the kingdom was put to him and to us right there in that matter.

Many have had unscheduled baptisms (as they won't perceive it coming in advance or schedule it into the next baptism service at the assembly) like the above. They really are Divinely Directed 'appointments' given at the proper time from above that are quite unique to each individual believer.

Jesus for example did a Baptism of DEATH. And this is part of what water baptism 'symbolizes.' But we all do experience a real DEATH baptism in our own lives too. The water part is just a preamble to account ourselves that way until the real deathly baptism arrives. And the water is also symbolic of WORD which washes US clean yet simultaneously CONDEMNS the sin we have and carry. But to say the dip itself means much of anything in and of itself may be a misnomer. So, some say 'this is what it means' and some say 'that is what it means' when in fact it means a tremendous number of things. More than I can count myself. And so certain ones 'lock and load' on a particular slant and they turn a beautiful matter into an ugly matter of self justifications and condemnation to everyone else who doesn't cotton up only to their slants.

Jesus warned us about wolves in sheep cloth. It was a very worthy and real warning. Sacraments that are used to divide and destroy are peddled by wolves.

s

How did you come to a conclusion that Jesus did a baptism of death?

 

[rrowell]

Do you know how many different baptism's are depicted in the scriptures???

Several. Fire, Spirit, Tongues, Prophesy, Water, Incantation etc.

Some have whittled it down to SEVEN.

I would like you to show biblical proof of more than three.

Water, Holy Spirit, and Fire, and the last two ONLY Christ can do.

 

[rrowell]

Yeah, Jesus was told the same thing. I might consider similar statements to be complimentary:

Mark 3:
21 And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.

Paul, same deal:

Acts 26:24
And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.

Jesus gave believers many measures to know if they are 'in truth.' Here is my all time favorite:

Luke 6:26
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

followed closely by this one:

Luke 21:17
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

s

And he said many will call me Lord Lord:

Matthew 7:22 (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

You know who he is talking about? those who CALLED themselves Christians...

 

[smaller]

I would like you to show biblical proof of more than three.

Water, Holy Spirit, and Fire, and the last two ONLY Christ can do.

Well, at least you notched it up to three...

 

[rrowell]

All believers tend to focus on certain matters and revolve their understandings around those matters.

I might see and say there is much to consider and do in everything He said and did. Some things He said I fully accept and even find much incredible joy where other believers quake in fear.

Just some?

Well of course you did. And now you have ascended into your judgment seat for everyone else. I can only shake my head at that kind of statement because for me that would be an outright lie.

I would say the same for you, however I would not call you a liar, I would say you just let doctrine of men tell you what the Bible says...

I generally reject that type of stance just so you know and in life I tend to avoid such people as they have qualities I don't care for that I see are commanded to avoid by Jesus. It would be much more higher up on my own scale to not be a hypocrite than to be baptized by full immersion water, for example.

This is exactly why there is division, "your way or the highway", I see that in your posts...

I might even say a hypocrite could be baptized, fully immersed in water, every correct word uttered by all parties and that believer could still be a hypocrite and that water didn't do a spot of good.

I like to say they just got wet.

John the baptist for example refused to baptize certain 'religious folk' because 'internally' they were VIPERS and instead he condemned them. Jesus did the same things and more so.

Yep, Jesus said it here:

Matthew 7:22 (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(This was to people that called them selves Christians)

I inclined to take a closer look at those kinds of matters myself because I really don't want to be that kind of person. And when I did I factually found myself to be a hypocrite and a modern day pharisee by many of the things taught by sectarian christianity.

This was the start of my own personal convictions that was put on me by the scriptures: When my wife and I were offered 'elder' positions in my then current church with seats up in front with purple covers. This scripture immediately thundered in my head:

Luke 11:43
Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues

Even though I knew right there on the spot I had to reject that purple covered seat up front I told the pastor I'd pray about it just to be polite. And I later rejected the offer and not too long after left that assembly by other thundering convictions. Ultimately a believer has to move with his convictions. There is no other way. To go against them is to sin for me. When Jesus speaks, I really try to listen closely.

I agree, so why do you think one does not have to do ALL he commands and not just some of them?

I am quite fond of both studying and avoiding the WOE'S. Any serious student will find these matters quite ripe in nearly every assembly. Few however will take notice to avoid even with outright and direct warnings from God in Christ Himself not to do such things.
I try my best too. And I still can't say "I have no sin" if I desire to be 'in Truth.' Sometimes spiritual life can come at a person at entirely different directions than what others may find. Some may actually be led to prefer honesty.

If I honesty thought water baptism would make me sinless I might be able to delude myself for awhile but the effects wear off soon enough when the reality of sin comes a knockin. Then they 'revert' to other formulas such as yours above to avoid confrontations with their sin and let themselves off the hook awhile longer. And that cycle can go on for quite a long time. Especially if it's performed in front of an assembly where other believers can see that you did their requirements and you feel good about yourself in front of everybody.

Water baptism (if done faithfully) will make you sinless, but if you think it will keep you that way, then your doing the right thing by not being baptized until you fully understand what it gives you. (like forever repentance and forgiveness by the once only sacrifice of our Lord for example)

 

[smaller]

And he said many will call me Lord Lord:

Matthew 7:22 (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

You know who he is talking about? those who CALLED themselves Christians...

I fully expect to hear those Words, "depart from me, I never knew you," and will rejoice. And you may scratch your head the rest of your life and never understand how that can be. I expect you will hear those same Words. And there is sound reasoning behind 'why' you will that you don't know or understand.

For me it is a matter of faith in His Words:

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Now go find LIFE in the Words of God in Christ you don't like. Better yet, ask Him 'how' that is so. You might get taught if you are sincere.Only God in Christ can tune any believers ears to hear. To others it will remain unknowable.

s

 

[smaller]

Water baptism (if done faithfully) will make you sinless, but if you think it will keep you that way, then your doing the right thing by not being baptized until you fully understand what it gives you. (like forever repentance and forgiveness by the once only sacrifice of our Lord for example)

quite funny. quite.

 

[rrowell]

Originally Posted by rrowell
I would like you to show biblical proof of more than three.

Water, Holy Spirit, and Fire, and the last two ONLY Christ can do.

Well, at least you notched it up to three...

Your forgot something, like answering the question?

 

[smaller]

How did you come to a conclusion that Jesus did a baptism of death?

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ

 

[rrowell]

Originally Posted by rrowell
Water baptism (if done faithfully) will make you sinless, but if you think it will keep you that way, then your doing the right thing by not being baptized until you fully understand what it gives you. (like forever repentance and forgiveness by the once only sacrifice of our Lord for example)

quite funny. quite.

What I find "funny" is how you take a commandment from Jesus and call it "funny":

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[smaller]

Your forgot something, like answering the question?

you can reflect however you are led. I certainly don't condemn you for your reflections. can't say the measure is reciprocal but whatever.

Different sights are ordained.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Were we all hearts the same there would be only singular reflection.

s

 

[smaller]

What I find "funny" is how you take a commandment from Jesus and call it "funny":

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Water will make you sinless? Perhaps living in the ocean would be beneficial to make everyone sinless?

 

[smaller]

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

 

[rrowell]

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ

That's how you get it? taking apart scripture? lets Finnish it:

Romans 6:4 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The writer here is explaining that when you are "water baptized" you are representing his death burial and resurrection, and when you come up out of the water you are (like Christ resurrected he walked in newness of life) so too do we...

Picking the part of the scripture only leads to false teaching...

 

[rrowell]

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

Again, lets Finnish it:

1 Corinthians 10:1-6 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 6 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

I could go on with all you left out, you pick apart scripture making a false teaching.

 

[smaller]

That's how you get it? taking apart scripture? lets Finnish it:

Romans 6:4 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The writer here is explaining that when you are "water baptized" you are representing his death burial and resurrection, and when you come up out of the water you are (like Christ resurrected he walked in newness of life) so too do we...

Picking the part of the scripture only leads to false teaching...

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

???

 

[rrowell]

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

???

Your twisting still, "that so many of us were baptized "into Jesus Christ"",

Water baptism puts you "into Jesus Christ":

Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

I suppose you will say this was a baptism of "death" too? or was it one of the other concocted baptisms you spoke of?

 

[smaller]

Your twisting still, "that so many of us were baptized "into Jesus Christ"",

Water baptism puts you "into Jesus Christ":

John 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

I suppose you will say this was a baptism of "death" too? or was it one of the other concocted baptisms you spoke of?

You notched up to 3. Some can read and will see more. Some can have it right in front of their noses and still not see it.

Hebrews 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[rrowell]

John 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Now what does this have to do with baptism? no wonder you came up with so many, here the writer tells us it is the word of God that produces the first fruits:

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

You notched up to 3. Some can read and will see more. Some can have it right in front of their noses and still not see it.

Hebrews 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms

And some will make some up, but there are only three, Water, Holy Spirit, and Fire = baptisms

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Again, this is not a "baptism", it is much like John 15:3 and James 1:18, it shows how Children of God become such by being begotten through the word, a word which is preached, believed, and obeyed. An example of the manner in which individuals are begotten and born again may be seen in the events of Pentecost when Peter, for the first time in the name of the risen Lord (Acts 2:1-47), preached the conditions of salvation, and three thousand souls in obedience thereto were born of the Word.