God's Conditional Grace

[farouk]

I don't understand why the bible tells us to be baptized if all we have to do is say I have faith and through God's grace we are saved. Then we are all going to heaven...that puts into question why is there a hell? Another thread I guess.

It's more a question of loving obedience to the Lord Jesus, in being baptised, as He asked His followers to do.

 

[Mike S]

I don't know where your coming from, nobody said you actually die when being baptized?

Nobody on this forum has said that, not that I am aware of?

The you agree, babtism is a symbolic act.

bornagain has made the comment "It is not symbolic. If you say that then you are saying the bible is wrong..."

 

[Mike S]

It is not an opinion...it is spread throughout the gospel. And you just called me a hypocrite.

No, I said you don't understand the truth of the bible. And, yes, your opinion is just that, an opinion. You basically made the argument "I've read the bible, I know the truth of the bible."

How's this work for you? "I"VE read the bible, I know the truth, and it's not YOUR truth."

Jesus made the point to the Pharisees that their obsession with the letter of the law led them to completely misunderstand the spirit of the law.

I'm making the same point to you. Your obsession with quoting scripture demonstrates the same kind of misunderstanding. If I was so inclined as to engage you in dueling scriptures, you'd see that there is not just one way of understanding them, and we would both most certainly be as guilty as the Pharisees.

God will save whom He will save, Christ will save whom He will save. Baptism is neither essential to, nor sufficient for, salvation, but it is the “ordinary means” that God has designated for applying the benefits of the work of Christ in our human lives. It is faith that is the basis of our salvation. "Betwixt the stirrup and the ground, mercy I asked and mercy I found."

 

[BornAgain]

No, I said you don't understand the truth of the bible. And, yes, your opinion is just that, an opinion. You basically made the argument "I've read the bible, I know the truth of the bible."

How's this work for you? "I"VE read the bible, I know the truth, and it's not YOUR truth."

Jesus made the point to the Pharisees that their obsession with the letter of the law led them to completely misunderstand the spirit of the law.

I'm making the same point to you. Your obsession with quoting scripture demonstrates the same kind of misunderstanding. If I was so inclined as to engage you in dueling scriptures, you'd see that there is not just one way of understanding them, and we would both most certainly be as guilty as the Pharisees.

God will save whom He will save, Christ will save whom He will save. Baptism is neither essential to, nor sufficient for, salvation, but it is the “ordinary means†that God has designated for applying the benefits of the work of Christ in our human lives.

Then I need to go back and reflect on myself..

 

[Mike S]

Then I need to go back and reflect on myself..

We all need to do that. Christ taught us, among other things, humility.

 

[rrowell]

The you agree, babtism is a symbolic act.

bornagain has made the comment "It is not symbolic. If you say that then you are saying the bible is wrong..."

It is what she said, but I know what she meant by it, and she can correct me if I am wrong...

She was saying it is not "an outward showing of an inward grace" as many attest to...

"an outward showing" is what she meant when she said "symbolic"...

She knows it "representation" of the death burial and resurrection" but it is NOT an "outward showing of an inward grace" (also "symbolic") of which I agree...

 

[smaller]

No, I said you don't understand the truth of the bible. And, yes, your opinion is just that, an opinion. You basically made the argument "I've read the bible, I know the truth of the bible."

How's this work for you? "I"VE read the bible, I know the truth, and it's not YOUR truth."

Jesus made the point to the Pharisees that their obsession with the letter of the law led them to completely misunderstand the spirit of the law.

I'm making the same point to you. Your obsession with quoting scripture demonstrates the same kind of misunderstanding. If I was so inclined as to engage you in dueling scriptures, you'd see that there is not just one way of understanding them, and we would both most certainly be as guilty as the Pharisees.

God will save whom He will save, Christ will save whom He will save. Baptism is neither essential to, nor sufficient for, salvation, but it is the “ordinary means†that God has designated for applying the benefits of the work of Christ in our human lives. It is faith that is the basis of our salvation. "Betwixt the stirrup and the ground, mercy I asked and mercy I found."

A truthful remark prior was that most who are baptized are already believers. Baptism didn't 'add' to their situation. It is largely symbolic and recognition of a change that already transpired.

When symbolism is applied all sorts of symbolism can come 'rightfully' into play. How much of it is accurate or what it means is also then open to question, observe or even 'fight' about as the case may be.

It's a disservice to baptism to claim that the belief of the believer is eliminated because they don't do so or that they are somehow incomplete via simple faith in not doing so. Most believers who spend any time in the scriptures will be baptized but I know a few who haven't or were infant baptized (obviously prior to belief via faith) and don't see the need for a re-do, and they still believe. It didn't effect their faithful belief one way or another. And I doubt the baptism as infants would have made any difference whether they'd believe or not other than that their parents hoped they would. In the end it's still up to God in Christ to call them or they wouldn't and couldn't hear regardless.

Many have taken a step in baptism that is bizarre, making that performance a hinge point of their salvation. The SBC is infamous for this, claiming those who were infant baptized are not saved or those who are not fully immersed with a certain incantation are not saved.

and on and on it goes.

If there is a way to throw stumbling blocks to the faith of others, christianity seems very apt to find every way there is available to do so.

Those who make salvation contingent upon baptism, speaking in tongues, any number of other scenario's seem to have transformed these matters into one of saving their own hides in their actions, somehow thinking that makes them safe, and that then gives them license to seek and make others 'un'safe and to shake them up and coagulate them into various camps. As if the difference in Miller Light beer is that it tastes great or is less filing. It's still Miller Light regardless.

And so is simple faith.

From the perspective of most believers almost ZERO of them had any intimate knowledge about the fantastical details of any of these matters or sacraments. They only believed, and then perhaps took an interest post salvation.

30 plus years ago I knew that God in Christ loved me, personally. A thousand believers may have told me prior but I didn't and couldn't hear them, couldn't relate to what they were saying, didn't have any understanding and could most of the time prior, care less.

When Jesus Himself tells you, it's a totally different matter. That was all I needed to know.

Conditional Grace? Never. His Grace was always there. Just not perceived, heard, believed or felt.

Those who witness to any extent see the same things in play. You can say all you want but until Jesus calls it doesn't seem to matter and it will be perceived as largely irrelevant to them. Like water off a ducks back. But to those who are awakened, they can't get enough.

s

 

[BornAgain]

A truthful remark prior was that most who are baptized are already believers. Baptism didn't 'add' to their situation. It is largely symbolic and recognition of a change that already transpired.

When symbolism is applied all sorts of symbolism can come 'rightfully' into play. How much of it is accurate or what it means is also then open to question, observe or even 'fight' about as the case may be.

It's a disservice to baptism to claim that the belief of the believer is eliminated because they don't do so or that they are somehow incomplete via simple faith in not doing so. Most believers who spend any time in the scriptures will be baptized but I know a few who haven't or were infant baptized (obviously prior to belief via faith) and don't see the need for a re-do, and they still believe. It didn't effect their faithful belief one way or another. And I doubt the baptism as infants would have made any difference whether they'd believe or not other than that their parents hoped they would. In the end it's still up to God in Christ to call them or they wouldn't and couldn't hear regardless.

Many have taken a step in baptism that is bizarre, making that performance a hinge point of their salvation. The SBC is infamous for this, claiming those who were infant baptized are not saved or those who are not fully immersed with a certain incantation are not saved.

and on and on it goes.

If there is a way to throw stumbling blocks to the faith of others, christianity seems very apt to find every way there is available to do so.

Those who make salvation contingent upon baptism, speaking in tongues, any number of other scenario's seem to have transformed these matters into one of saving their own hides in their actions, somehow thinking that makes them safe, and that then gives them license to seek and make others 'un'safe and to shake them up and coagulate them into various camps. As if the difference in Miller Light beer is that it tastes great or is less filing. It's still Miller Light regardless.

And so is simple faith.

From the perspective of most believers almost ZERO of them had any intimate knowledge about the fantastical details of any of these matters or sacraments. They only believed, and then perhaps took an interest post salvation.

30 plus years ago I knew that God in Christ loved me, personally. A thousand believers may have told me prior but I didn't and couldn't hear them, couldn't relate to what they were saying, didn't have any understanding and could most of the time prior, care less.

When Jesus Himself tells you, it's a totally different matter. That was all I needed to know.

Conditional Grace? Never. His Grace was always there. Just not perceived, heard, believed or felt.

Those who witness to any extent see the same things in play. You can say all you want but until Jesus calls it doesn't seem to matter and it will be perceived as largely irrelevant to them. Like water off a ducks back. But to those who are awakened, they can't get enough.

s

So what is your way to "salvation?"

 

[smaller]

So what is your way to "salvation?"

He has a call and it comes to those He chooses to call.

There are no formulas.

For a New Testament believer there is only one thing that counts.

Faith working through love.

That walk will be unique to each of us to the last one. And very special.

s

 

[Mike S]

So what is your way to "salvation?"

bornagain, I apologize for my rudeness, it seems I misunderstood your position on baptism.


In my denomination, we believe salvation comes through faith alone, justification by God's grace when we accept Jesus as our savior. There are times when we hit bottom in life and admit we can't do it on our own, and we finally turn to God. For me, it was falling to my knees, crying and pleading "Jesus, save me!"

 

[BornAgain]

He has a call and it comes to those He chooses to call.

There are no formulas.

For a New Testament believer there is only one thing that counts.

Faith working through love.

That walk will be unique to each of us to the last one. And very special.

s

I don't want this to be an argument but when you state He has a call and it comes to those He chooses does not make sense to me. That is like the doctrine of being chosen or elected....We have to seek Him.

Faith working through love...1 Thessalonians 1:3 (KJV)

 

[smaller]

I don't want this to be an argument but when you state He has a call and it comes to those He chooses does not make sense to me. That is like the doctrine of being chosen or elected....We have to seek Him.

Faith working through love...1 Thessalonians 1:3 (KJV)

Any of us can focus on any number of matters and use those matters to condemn other believers.

I take no light from that path as it is unproductive for me. I don't care to place stumbling blocks. Not my yob.

There are many matters to reflect on, endlessly and joyfully.

And if any believer wants to peer into the darkness, they would do themselves well to peer into their own darkness. They might be surprised by what God will show them in His Word and by His Spirit.

s

 

[BornAgain]

bornagain, I apologize for my rudeness, it seems I misunderstood your position on baptism.


In my denomination, we believe salvation comes through faith alone, justification by God's grace when we accept Jesus as our savior. There are times when we hit bottom in life and admit we can't do it on our own, and we finally turn to God. For me, it was falling to my knees, crying and pleading "Jesus, save me!"

Thank you mark, I had that moment, too. I know what that feels like and I believe my calling to baptism was true...I had a true internal feeling in my heart last summer and was called to be baptized. It was out of no where one day. It truly changed my life...for the better. I am a new person, selfless, caring and compassionate to the point where it hurts my heart to see people suffer, in need, hurt, etc. When I sin or do wrong it physically hurts my heart...I guess that is why I feel so passionate about baptism because I feel that it is surrendering to a will that is so much more powerful than our own.

 

[rrowell]

A truthful remark prior was that most who are baptized are already believers. Baptism didn't 'add' to their situation. It is largely symbolic and recognition of a change that already transpired.

What should have already transpired is one "heard" the gospel, one "believed" the gospel, one "repents" and "confesses Jesus Christ" with the mouth, and then one is "baptized" for the remission of sins.

Your correct, if they do all he commands, they are believers, (and baptism is a command).

 

[smaller]

What should have already transpired is one "heard" the gospel, one "believed" the gospel, one "repents" and "confesses Jesus Christ" with the mouth, and then one is "baptized" for the remission of sins.

Your correct, if they do all he commands, they are believers, (and baptism is a command).

When you follow every Perfect Step that Jesus did give me a hollar.

s

p.s. for the official record Jesus baptized NO ONE

John 4:
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

 

[rrowell]

When you follow every Perfect Step that Jesus did give me a hollar.

s

p.s. for the official record Jesus baptized NO ONE

John 4:
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

So if Jesus tells you to do something he didn't do you don't have to do it?

BTW: I already followed every perfect step that he commanded me to do, now I try my best to keep doing what he commanded me to do, and when I make my mistakes, I repent, try my best to not make mistakes again (and I will), I ask for his forgiveness and he does forgive me and cleanses me with his precious blood...

 

[BornAgain]

When you follow every Perfect Step that Jesus did give me a hollar.

s

p.s. for the official record Jesus baptized NO ONE

John 4:
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Why do you think that was?

 

[smaller]

So if Jesus tells you to do something he didn't do you don't have to do it?

All believers tend to focus on certain matters and revolve their understandings around those matters.

I might see and say there is much to consider and do in everything He said and did. Some things He said I fully accept and even find much incredible joy where other believers quake in fear.

BTW: I already followed every perfect step that he commanded me to do,

Well of course you did. And now you have ascended into your judgment seat for everyone else. I can only shake my head at that kind of statement because for me that would be an outright lie.

I generally reject that type of stance just so you know and in life I tend to avoid such people as they have qualities I don't care for that I see are commanded to avoid by Jesus. It would be much more higher up on my own scale to not be a hypocrite than to be baptized by full immersion water, for example.

I might even say a hypocrite could be baptized, fully immersed in water, every correct word uttered by all parties and that believer could still be a hypocrite and that water didn't do a spot of good.

John the baptist for example refused to baptize certain 'religious folk' because 'internally' they were VIPERS and instead he condemned them. Jesus did the same things and more so.

I inclined to take a closer look at those kinds of matters myself because I really don't want to be that kind of person. And when I did I factually found myself to be a hypocrite and a modern day pharisee by many of the things taught by sectarian christianity.

This was the start of my own personal convictions that was put on me by the scriptures: When my wife and I were offered 'elder' positions in my then current church with seats up in front with purple covers. This scripture immediately thundered in my head:

Luke 11:43
Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues

Even though I knew right there on the spot I had to reject that purple covered seat up front I told the pastor I'd pray about it just to be polite. And I later rejected the offer and not too long after left that assembly by other thundering convictions. Ultimately a believer has to move with his convictions. There is no other way. To go against them is to sin for me. When Jesus speaks, I really try to listen closely.

I am quite fond of both studying and avoiding the WOE'S. Any serious student will find these matters quite ripe in nearly every assembly. Few however will take notice to avoid even with outright and direct warnings from God in Christ Himself not to do such things.

now I try my best to keep doing what he commanded me to do, and when I make my mistakes, I repent, try my best to not make mistakes again (and I will), I ask for his forgiveness and he does forgive me and cleanses me with his precious blood...

I try my best too. And I still can't say "I have no sin" if I desire to be 'in Truth.' Sometimes spiritual life can come at a person at entirely different directions than what others may find. Some may actually be led to prefer honesty.

If I honesty thought water baptism would make me sinless I might be able to delude myself for awhile but the effects wear off soon enough when the reality of sin comes a knockin. Then they 'revert' to other formulas such as yours above to avoid confrontations with their sin and let themselves off the hook awhile longer. And that cycle can go on for quite a long time. Especially if it's performed in front of an assembly where other believers can see that you did their requirements and you feel good about yourself in front of everybody.

And a lot of times God in Christ gives newbies a breather. I enjoyed a very nice breather post salvation myself.

But sooner or later in the course of a lifetime all matters really are put to test and then life in faith really starts to get more interesting as Jesus Himself starts to bear down on you.

If a person is being dealt with by God in Christ they should expect chastisements of various sorts and the ones I've experienced are not all that fun quite frankly.

There is not a single sacrament that could have avoided the chastisements. If a believer doesn't have experience in these matters I might even say they are bastards and not sons.

s

 

[BornAgain]

All believers tend to focus on certain matters and revolve their understandings around those matters.

I might see and say there is much to consider and do in everything He said and did. Some things He said I fully accept and even find much incredible joy where other believers quake in fear.



Well of course you did. And now you have ascended into your judgment seat for everyone else. I can only shake my head at that kind of statement because for me that would be an outright lie.

I generally reject that type of stance just so you know and in life I tend to avoid such people as they have qualities I don't care for that I see are commanded to avoid by Jesus. It would be much more higher up on my own scale to not be a hypocrite than to be baptized by full immersion water, for example.

I might even say a hypocrite could be baptized, fully immersed in water, every correct word uttered by all parties and that believer could still be a hypocrite and that water didn't do a spot of good.

John the baptist for example refused to baptize certain 'religious folk' because 'internally' they were VIPERS and instead he condemned them. Jesus did the same things and more so.

I inclined to take a closer look at those kinds of matters myself because I really don't want to be that kind of person. And when I did I factually found myself to be a hypocrite and a modern day pharisee by many of the things taught by sectarian christianity.

This was the start of my own personal convictions that was put on me by the scriptures: When my wife and I were offered 'elder' positions in my then current church with seats up in front with purple covers. This scripture immediately thundered in my head:

Luke 11:43
Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues

Even though I knew right there on the spot I had to reject that purple covered seat up front I told the pastor I'd pray about it just to be polite. And I later rejected the offer and not too long after left that assembly by other thundering convictions. Ultimately a believer has to move with his convictions. There is no other way. To go against them is to sin for me. When Jesus speaks, I really try to listen closely.

I am quite fond of both studying and avoiding the WOE'S. Any serious student will find these matters quite ripe in nearly every assembly. Few however will take notice to avoid even with outright and direct warnings from God in Christ Himself not to do such things.


I try my best too. And I still can't say "I have no sin" if I desire to be 'in Truth.' Sometimes spiritual life can come at a person at entirely different directions than what others may find. Some may actually be led to prefer honesty.

If I honesty thought water baptism would make me sinless I might be able to delude myself for awhile but the effects wear off soon enough when the reality of sin comes a knockin. Then they 'revert' to other formulas such as yours above to avoid confrontations with their sin and let themselves off the hook awhile longer. And that cycle can go on for quite a long time. Especially if it's performed in front of an assembly where other believers can see that you did their requirements and you feel good about yourself in front of everybody.

And a lot of times God in Christ gives newbies a breather. I enjoyed a very nice breather post salvation myself.

But sooner or later in the course of a lifetime all matters really are put to test and then life in faith really starts to get more interesting as Jesus Himself starts to bear down on you.

If a person is being dealt with by God in Christ they should expect chastisements of various sorts and the ones I've experienced are not all that fun quite frankly.

There is not a single sacrament that could have avoided the chastisments. If a believer doesn't have experience in these matters I might even say they are bastards and not sons.

s

Somebody that says they are a believer can be delusional....

 

[smaller]

Why do you think that was?

Do you know how many different baptism's are depicted in the scriptures???

Several. Fire, Spirit, Tongues, Prophesy, Water, Incantation etc.

Some have whittled it down to SEVEN.

And all different types via all kinds different ways.

Yet we also know there is but One Lord, one faith and One Baptism.

These kinds of contradictions, or so they may appear on the surface, are intentionally placed in the scriptures so that believers who read them take A CLOSER LOOK.

Paul for example experienced a form of Direct Visitation baptism by the Light of God in Christ AND HIS VOICE that put scales over his eyes and blinded him. Yet for the most part the others who were with him had a much different experience from that same event.

Peter experienced a form of baptism when Satan entered him and spoke through him and he didn't even realize it. Yet a key to the kingdom was put to him and to us right there in that matter.

Many have had unscheduled baptisms (as they won't perceive it coming in advance or schedule it into the next baptism service at the assembly) like the above. They really are Divinely Directed 'appointments' given at the proper time from above that are quite unique to each individual believer.

Jesus for example did a Baptism of DEATH. And this is part of what water baptism 'symbolizes.' But we all do experience a real DEATH baptism in our own lives too. The water part is just a preamble to account ourselves that way until the real deathly baptism arrives. And the water is also symbolic of WORD which washes US clean yet simultaneously CONDEMNS the sin we have and carry. But to say the dip itself means much of anything in and of itself may be a misnomer. So, some say 'this is what it means' and some say 'that is what it means' when in fact it means a tremendous number of things. More than I can count myself. And so certain ones 'lock and load' on a particular slant and they turn a beautiful matter into an ugly matter of self justifications and condemnation to everyone else who doesn't cotton up only to their slants.

Jesus warned us about wolves in sheep cloth. It was a very worthy and real warning. Sacraments that are used to divide and destroy are peddled by wolves.

s