God's Conditional Grace

[BornAgain]

As stated prior, many sects suffer under delusions of perfect systems and they damn other believers not in their systems.

Such show who they are, to be avoided by others. It's also why a common and blinded unbeliever can 'truthfully' see such practitioners are hypocrites.

Christianity is rightfully mocked by unbelievers for these things. Unbelievers are more truthful. What a shame.

s

How can an unbeliever have a truth about anything? One who lacks belief or faith, especially in a particular religion; a nonbeliever. unbeliever. They are ignorant...not in a demeaning way but to the truth.

 

[smaller]

How is taking the Word as ritualistic? Nothing Jesus says has anything to do with rituals. I say a heart that is obedient to Christ is a good heart...

I could recite several dozens of variations on the matter of baptism alone, each sect thinking only their system is right and everyone else's entirely wrong, the matters ranging from major to minor, sometimes down to a single word or the mere pronunciation of a single word.

There is really only one thing common among them all though. They all damn each others either outright or potentially to hell.

So there is your common doctrine and the revealing of what is 'really' within their hearts. So many direct attributes of the Pharisees revisted within christiandom.

s

 

[smaller]

How can an unbeliever have a truth about anything?

Because they truthfully see a load of hypocrisy.

One who lacks belief or faith, especially in a particular religion; a nonbeliever. unbeliever. They are ignorant...not in a demeaning way but to the truth.

Truth is they are right to avoid the sectarianism too.

s

 

[BornAgain]

I could recite several dozens of variations on the matter of baptism alone, each sect thinking only their system is right and everyone else's entirely wrong, the matters ranging from major to minor, sometimes down to a single word or the mere pronunciation of a single word.

There is really only one thing common among them all though. They all damn each others either outright or potentially to hell.

So there is your common doctrine and the revealing of what is 'really' within their hearts. So many direct attributes of the Pharisees revisted within christiandom.

s

You are wrong...I do not judge or condemn anybody. That is up to God...I am just saying what I believe to be the truth. It is up to one's one decision whether they want to follow it or not and be accountable in the end. You have a choice, God is a giver to free will...you can be a sheep or a goat. I am not going to throw scripture around to prove my point. If you have a bible you can read it for yourself.

 

[BornAgain]

Because they truthfully see a load of hypocrisy.



Truth is they are right to avoid the sectarianism too.

s

Right, to avoid "groups." I don't blame them for being denominational, I am not either.

 

[smaller]

You are wrong...I do not judge or condemn anybody. That is up to God.

That's what every believer claims. And then they proceed to insert their exact formulas to damn other believers, that being 'this is what God thinks.'

I think they don't know enough to really say to that extent.

..I am just saying what I believe to be the truth. It is up to one's one decision whether they want to follow it or not and be accountable in the end. You have a choice, God is a giver to free will...you can be a sheep or a goat. I am not going to throw scripture around to prove my point. If you have a bible you can read it for yourself.

If any believer is honest, they will see they themselves do both sheep and goat works. So even in such things you will find a few who can read the scriptures honestly and most who think themselves only 'sheep' workers.

Only one of the facts is true. That all of us never ever do always and only Perfect works or only sheep works. And there is only one 'honest' reflection, a reflection that none of us are Perfect.

s

 

[Adullam]

I could recite several dozens of variations on the matter of baptism alone, each sect thinking only their system is right and everyone else's entirely wrong, the matters ranging from major to minor, sometimes down to a single word or the mere pronunciation of a single word.

There is really only one thing common among them all though. They all damn each others either outright or potentially to hell.

So there is your common doctrine and the revealing of what is 'really' within their hearts. So many direct attributes of the Pharisees revisted within christiandom.

s

You are describing the religious system and the tendency of men to settle for less than the very life of Christ. The way of Christ is hard and few (especially us rich westerners) could be bothered to actually obey or seek to measure up to the words of Christ. To have a better view of true Christianity one would have to visit a poor country.

 

[smaller]

You are describing the religious system and the tendency of men to settle for less than the very life of Christ.

Yes, I would deem a great bulk of those various efforts both legalistic/ritualistic and futile in those who use those practices to the detriment of other believers. It's quite an interesting show.

The way of Christ is hard and few (especially us rich westerners) could be bothered to actually obey or seek to measure up to the words of Christ. To have a better view of true Christianity one would have to visit a poor country.

Indeed. Or even more, to see that we ourselves are in fact in these exact conditions regardless of our so called perfect doctrines and systems.

Revelation 3:17
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

s

 

[farouk]

It is not symbolic. If you say that then you are saying the bible is wrong...

Christine: I do really think that faith in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ at the Cross, when He shed His most precious blood for sinners so that the consciences of those who believe in Him can be purged (Hebrews 9.14), isn't replaced or rendered ineffective by a symbol. The symbol is important, yes, but it's not the actual cleansing and new birth itself.

 

[BornAgain]

Christine: I do really think that faith in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ at the Cross, when He shed His most precious blood for sinners so that the consciences of those who believe in Him can be purged (Hebrews 9.14), isn't replaced or rendered ineffective by a symbol. The symbol is important, yes, but it's not the actual cleansing and new birth itself.

Romans 6:4-8 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Why is this so hard to understand? If you obey one part of the bible you have to obey it all, not just bits and pieces.

"It is probable that the apostle here alludes to the mode of administering baptism by immersion, the whole body being put under the water, which seemed to say: the man is drowned, is dead; and when he came up out of the water, he seemed to have a resurrection to life; the man is risen again; he is alive." Conybeare and Howson: "This passage cannot be understood unless it be borne in mind that the primitive baptism was by immersion."

 

[farouk]

Romans 6:4-8 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Why is this so hard to understand? If you obey one part of the bible you have to obey it all, not just bits and pieces.

"It is probable that the apostle here alludes to the mode of administering baptism by immersion, the whole body being put under the water, which seemed to say: the man is drowned, is dead; and when he came up out of the water, he seemed to have a resurrection to life; the man is risen again; he is alive." Conybeare and Howson: "This passage cannot be understood unless it be borne in mind that the primitive baptism was by immersion."

To use the language of the commentary, the baptism isn't the drowning itself, it represents it. The Cross of Christ and its effectiveness by faith isn't replaced by a rite.

 

[rrowell]

Christine: I do really think that faith in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ at the Cross, when He shed His most precious blood for sinners so that the consciences of those who believe in Him can be purged (Hebrews 9.14), isn't replaced or rendered ineffective by a symbol. The symbol is important, yes, but it's not the actual cleansing and new birth itself.

Baptism is a representation of Christs Death, Burial, and Resurrection, by going down into the water it represents the death and burying of our sinful ways, coming up out of the water represents the resurrection (rebirth) to walk in newness of life "new born babes in Christ"...

She has not said anything different than that to anyone one here of which I agree the Bible teaches.

 

[BornAgain]

To use the language of the commentary, the baptism isn't the drowning itself, it represents it. The Cross of Christ and its effectiveness by faith isn't replaced by a rite.

Disregard the commentary and address scripture....

 

[rrowell]

To use the language of the commentary, the baptism isn't the drowning itself, it represents it. The Cross of Christ and its effectiveness by faith isn't replaced by a rite.

How and where did she say it was other than a "representation" ???

 

[BornAgain]

You are describing the religious system and the tendency of men to settle for less than the very life of Christ. The way of Christ is hard and few (especially us rich westerners) could be bothered to actually obey or seek to measure up to the words of Christ. To have a better view of true Christianity one would have to visit a poor country.

Adullum, what do you mean by the religious systems? Isn't baptism the way of Christ? Do we need to visit a poor country to get a "better view of Christianity?"

 

[farouk]

Romans 6 talks about being alive in Christ and this came about when the believer was born again, exercising faith in the Lord Jesus and His work at the Cross.

Many local churches refers to believer's baptism: that is, those who are baptised are believers already.

 

[BornAgain]

Romans 6 talks about being alive in Christ and this came about when the believer was born again, exercising faith in the Lord Jesus and His work at the Cross.

Many local churches refers to believer's baptism: that is, those who are baptised are believers already.

I don't understand why the bible tells us to be baptized if all we have to do is say I have faith and through God's grace we are saved. Then we are all going to heaven...that puts into question why is there a hell? Another thread I guess.

 

[Mike S]

It is not a matter of being correct...it is a matter of truth.

I'm sorry. Your having an opinion does not constitute the "truth." You read the Bible and think you know what it says, and you're absolutely wrong. You're as wrong with your understanding of the will of God as were the Pharisees.

So, unless you're willing to let us see you get babtized, and let me nail you to the cross and bleed you out with a spear to the chest, and let me put you in the ground, and have you hope to be physically raised after three days, the babtism you experienced is symbolic.

 

[BornAgain]

I'm sorry. Your having an opinion does not constitute the "truth." You read the Bible and think you know what it says, and you're absolutely wrong. You're as wrong with your understanding of the will of God as were the Pharisees.

So, unless you're willing to let us see you get babtized, and let me nail you to the cross and bleed you out with a spear to the chest, and let me put you in the ground, and have you hope to be physically raised after three days, the babtism you experienced is symbolic.

It is not an opinion...it is spread throughout the gospel. And you just called me a hypocrite.

 

[rrowell]

I'm sorry. Your having an opinion does not constitute the "truth." You read the Bible and think you know what it says, and you're absolutely wrong. You're as wrong with your understanding of the will of God as were the Pharisees.

So, unless you're willing to let us see you get babtized, and let me nail you to the cross and bleed you out with a spear to the chest, and let me put you in the ground, and have you hope to be physically raised after three days, the babtism you experienced is symbolic.

I don't know where your coming from, nobody said you actually die when being baptized?

Nobody on this forum has said that, not that I am aware of?