Grace - Old & New Testament

[Klee shay]

I thought that when you said "Jesus and I are world's apart", that you meant that you and Jesus were not of this world (and therefore leaving me as "wordly" and without Messiah to know the truth).

Now I see, LOL, my humble apologies. That could be read either way, couldn't it? Sorry for the misunderstanding. Yes, I meant that Jesus and I are world's apart - probably just as you and I are world's apart. :wink:

 

[wavy]

You are saying the new covernant can only be with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

Meaning that all who join and become part of the Olive Tree of Israel are considered Israel, regardless of heritage.

My point being; where else has God made promises in the bible with the lips of his son, sealed in his blood; to those whom believe upon Him? You are not incorrect, but didn't the life of Jesus and the sacrifice plus resurrection broaden the field to so much more?

The life of the Messiah was to teach, rebuild, restore, redeem, and reconcile Israel (through his death).

Through this mission (which was continued in the apostles and will be completed at the end of the age), all have opportunity to become part of the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2:12), whereas we were aliens from it and from the covenants before.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Romans 4:6-25

Amen!

 

[Klee shay]

Meaning that all who join and become part of the Olive Tree of Israel are considered Israel, regardless of heritage.

Yes but the belief in God Abraham possessed was counted as righteousness. Therefore it is not Israel that we become part of; but God. :wink:

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Isn't Jesus Israel? When we are place in Christ do we not become Israel along with Christ?

That's what being adopted into the vine (the vine being Jesus) means. We are adopted as Israel because we are in Christ and Christ is Israel.

I could be wrong here. Many people have told me I am wrong. Not that I care, because it's the my belief in Jesus that matters for my salvation not my understanding of 'adoption' etc.

 

[wavy]

But that's the whole point of being blessed with Abraham. Because through Abraham, Isaac was born. Through Isaac was born Jacob, and Jacob was the last man to receive Yahweh's covenant blessings of multiplicity, collectively called Israel.

So indeed, it is Yahweh we join ourselves to. And there is only one people Yahweh has chosen to place his Name on, and that is his people Israel.

His Moshiach is King of Israel. His Moshiach is even called Israel in a few places (Isaiah 49:3, for example).

Therefore, being mixed with Abraham through whom Messiah and the blessed nation Israel came, we are also considered part of this family.

There can't be anything else. Not unless we want to violate scripture. Isaiah 56:3 makes it clear that YHWH does not want divisions within his people.

The law of mixture shows us that you can't sow a field with different seeds, or mate two types of cattle together, or wear a mingling of different fabrics in one garment (see Leviticus 19:19).

All must be of the same substance and all are considered the same substance in the eyes of Yahweh through Messiah. We see in Matthew 13:24-30, that the world is a field. The children of the kingdom are of one seed (wheat). It is the enemy which secretly plants seed of another kind (weeds/tares) in this field (which is why all separate entity and dispensationalist theology are lies and doctrines of satan).

Yahshua gathers the tares through his messengers and they are thrown into the fire.

He also divides the sheep and the goats.

All the kidushim (holy ones/saints) wear white robes, all of linen.

So, let's take heed to this calling.

 

[wavy]

Isn't Jesus Israel? When we are place in Christ do we not become Israel along with Christ?

I didn't even know you wrote this (probably while I was writing above). You are correct. See above.

That's what being adopted into the vine (the vine being Jesus) means. We are adopted as Israel because we are in Christ and Christ is Israel.

Yes, Isaiah 5:1-7, which Yahshua refers to in that scripture in John 15:1-6 tells us who that husband of the vineyard is, and who the vineyard is. All of us are individual branches within that vineyard.

I could be wrong here. Many people have told me I am wrong. Not that I care, because it's the my belief in Jesus that matters for my salvation not my understanding of 'adoption' etc.

No, you are right on the money. Glad you brought the vineyard thing up.

And before I forget, compare Matthew 21:33-45 and compare with that Isaiah chapter 5.

 

[Klee shay]

Can you point me in the direction of the scriptures where it says Christ is Israel? I have always perceived him as the Son of God and therefore find it hard to equate him to the things of this Earth. Israel and the people thereof being a grain in the sands of the ocean in comparrison to the people Christ will call in his name. I didn't realise his name was exclusively Israel. I mean that seriously, not sarcastically which is why I would like scriptures to contemplate further.

 

[wavy]

Can you point me in the direction of the scriptures where it says Christ is Israel?

Isaiah 49:3 is the only one I can think of now. But then again, for something to do b true in Yahweh's Word, it only has to appear once.

I have always perceived him as the Son of God and therefore find it hard to equate him to the things of this Earth.

Israel is to set our hearts on the things above, as Yahshua declared:

Matthew 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Matthew 6:32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Messiah, speaking to all Israel, contrasts them with the rest of the nations: the pagan gentiles.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

These are none other than the elect: Israel, the firstborn of all the world:

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Israel is Yahweh's national son. I believe Messiah is Israel personified as all Israel should be. This is being conformed to his image.

Israel and the people thereof being a grain in the sands of the ocean in comparrison to the people Christ will call in his name.

Nope. Israel is basically all the sands of the ocean, although many today do not understand this.

I didn't realise his name was exclusively Israel.

Messiah? Not exclusively, no. But these are they whom he indentifies himself with. These are his brothers. "I will declare your Name unto my brothers. In the midst of the congregation I will praise you".

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Can you point me in the direction of the scriptures where it says Christ is Israel? I have always perceived him as the Son of God and therefore find it hard to equate him to the things of this Earth. Israel and the people thereof being a grain in the sands of the ocean in comparrison to the people Christ will call in his name. I didn't realise his name was exclusively Israel. I mean that seriously, not sarcastically which is why I would like scriptures to contemplate further.

Jesus is the seed of Jacob and Jacob was Israel.

Isaiah 65 v 9

And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

I have seen more but I forgot where they were - sorry.

 

[wavy]

Yes, to Merry you listen (I'm a Star Wars nerd :-D ).

 

[Klee shay]

What has been quoted is truth but it was required to bring about Christ. If Abraham was not promised from his seed would come a great inheritance, what hope would he have? If Jacob was not promised from his seed would come a great inheritance, what hope would he have? Why would they need to beleive if God didn't give them something big enough to beleive in?

These were promises made by God in the OT so that people would believe in the thing that was coming. Jesus was that which was coming. On this earth he neither proclaimed himself to be God, or to be good or even that he was a King of any nation. God pointed to the vessel in the OT, Jesus pointed it back to God in the NT and what does this teach us? Does it teach us that Israel is God or that Israel is good or that Israel is the only nation God will inherit?

If Christ did not pick up the crown of King by choice in life, but was given a crown of thorns to mock him in death - what does this say about God's will?

In our faith are we to continue to see Jesus through worldly vestiges, or has he truly ascended to the right-hand side of God?

What has been quoted in the OT is truth, but it was to point to the one that was coming. When Jesus came, who did he point to - his inheritance on Earth which God promised his forefathers, or God his father in heaven? God came through with his promise to mankind; they did get a King, but did Christ acknowledge it as what he wanted to inherit on Earth?

If Christ gave up the things of this world to join his father in heaven, what does that say we must do also?