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Grailhunter's Classroom

I would say I disagree with you on all counts.
Of course, and without addressing the points. I even used your own reasoning to show that you are being arbitrary in choosing where and when it applies. I've also shown that Isaiah's second son wasn't name Immanuel; not even close.

And I have explained the virgin thing several times and if you cannot grasp it, I don't want to explain it to you again.
Then please point me to a post where it is stated clearly and succinctly.

And I am beginning to catch on to Free’s method of scriptural interpretation,
That's good because it's based off accepted principles of interpretation.

so there is no telling what you believe.
Sure there is. I've told you what I believe.

But I do have a sense of humor…..so you go ahead explain what you think….and I will keep laughing at you.
Of course you will. edit
 
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Then please point me to a post where it is stated clearly and succinctly.
You probably need to start from the beginning.

That's good because it's based off accepted principles of interpretation.
There is no possibility of that.

Sure there is. I've told you what I believe.
That is why I am skeptical. edit

Of course you will. That's evidence of pride and a false teacher.

edit.
 
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You probably need to start from the beginning.


There is no possibility of that.


That is why I am skeptical that you can understand the simplest of things



No its evidence that you are just hilarious.
At least now it’s clear to everyone.

Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. (ESV)
 
At least now it’s clear to everyone.

Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. (ESV)
You probably need to start from the beginning.


There is no possibility of that.


That is why I am skeptical that you can understand the simplest of things



No its evidence that you are just hilarious.
Dang I'm late, what did I miss?
 
At least now it’s clear to everyone.

Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. (ESV)
You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers!!!
 
Dang I'm late, what did I miss?
Not much. Grailhunter believes Isa 7:14 is speaking about Isaiah’s wife, based on a couple of assumptions, which also leads to an incorrect definition of “virgin” (which seems only to be defined in these passages by circular reasoning). I simply pointed out that his reasoning is circular and 7:14 can’t be speaking about Isaiah’s wife for a couple of obvious reasons.
 
You probably need to start from the beginning.


There is no possibility of that.


That is why I am skeptical. edit



edit.
PLEASE ADDRESS THE TOPIC AND NOT THE MEMBER.
TOS 1.1 AND 1.3 ARE BEING BROKEN.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST IN THIS THEAD.
USE TALK WITH STAFF IF NECESSARY.
THANKS.
 
Did you know that God knows our thoughts and our hearts ?

1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Matthew 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

1 Chronicles 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

When I pray and say the name Jesus or cry out I know that I am heard by the Almighty God because He knows my thoughts and my heart .

Does HaShem know the thoughts of your heart @Grailhunter ?
Your reply to my post of above Grailhunter .
The bug a boo about the names are important because Yahweh and Yeshua deserve to have their names known and in the Bible.

Some people know the names Yahweh and Yeshua but few know the details.

Do you like the name HaShem? HaShem and EL where the more casual names for Yahweh.
Let us revisit earlier in this thread because I did not get an answer to my question .
I don't think it was too much of a question to ask , so I will ask it again with a name change .

Grailhunter does YAHWEH know your thoughts and your heart ?
 
our reply to my post of above @Grailhunter .

Did you know that God knows our thoughts and our hearts ?

1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Matthew 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

1 Chronicles 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

When I pray and say the name Jesus or cry out I know that I am heard by the Almighty God because He knows my thoughts and my heart .

Does HaShem know the thoughts of your heart Grailhunter ?

Knows your heart and mind. Yes.
Are the names of Yahweh and Yeshua sacred?
What does it mean to us to know the names of Yahweh and Yeshua?
What does it mean to Yahweh and Yeshua for us to know their names?
What does it matter if their names are in the Bible?
Is their power in their names?
Can we call them just anything?
Can we pray to Bill and George and does it matter?
Can we worship Bill and George?
God Bill and God George....does that make these names sacred?
Is their salvation in the name of George?
Ask anything in my name.....what is George going to do for us?
If you know their names is it ok to call them something different?
What does it mean if you call them something different?
How about whatz is name?
 
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Knows your heart and mind. Yes.
Yes , thank you for the answer .
Are the names of Yahweh and Yeshua sacred?
What does it mean to us to know the names of Yahweh and Yeshua?
What does it mean to Yahweh and Yeshua for us to know their names?
What does it matter if their names are in the Bible?
Is their power in their names?
Have you ever heard the expression " Don't fix what ain't broke ." ? So what works for me .

I know in my walk as a Christian if I call on the name of Jesus things happen . Are angels dispatched to help ? Could be . Is it the very finger of God that saves me from destruction ? Could be . Results from my prayers and petitions that I request from the LORD in Jesus's name . Example , and I have more :) .
This happened @ 1989 . Me my wife and young son were eating at the kitchen table and storm started with very loud thunder . My son was getting scared and we said God will protect us and about a minute later BOOM ! The house was struck , the breaker popped on the window air conditioner that was right next to us . All of our electronics were blown up and the drain trap on the bath tub had all debris blown out and stuck to the ceiling . Outside the house we found a hole blown in the cast iron septic tank pipe and about 6 feet away the gas line to our propane tank had about 4 inchs of it that were melted and misshaped from the lightning .We later found out the ground was NOT hooked up at our power meter . Many years later a large hickory tree died that was in our front yard and upon getting it cut down we found out it was all burned down inside of the center of the tree . Praise the Lord we are still here !
 
Have you ever heard the expression " Don't fix what ain't broke ." ? So what works for me .

I know in my walk as a Christian if I call on the name of Jesus things happen . Are angels dispatched to help ? Could be . Is it the very finger of God that saves me from destruction ? Could be . Results from my prayers and petitions that I request from the LORD in Jesus's name . Example , and I have more :) .

I am not denying any of that. But is broken the right word.....or is it more accurate to say that Christianity has some serious false beliefs that can cause serious issues.
That is why I answered your questions with questions.
Does it matter? And that gets to mission purpose of my ministry.
I believe Christians deserve to have been told the Truth. Not my ministry to get you to believe the Truth. That is between you and God.

I expose false beliefs and provide the Truth. Employing the seeds method ....scatter the seeds and walking way....Just as Christ explained. What happens to it is between people and God. Some people do not care.....Some people are not going to check it out.

Would you believe preachers have a stressful job? I worship with several denominations at several churches. I get involved and I hang with preachers and do things like gulf, hunting, camping and have regular lunches with them. Between the personal disagreements in the churches and their desire for people to believe them, their jobs can be very stressful. You want to help a preacher, lend him a confidential ear.

My ministry does not have any of that.....I tell yea and I don't care if you believe. My talent and skills the Lord gave me so that someone was telling the Truth. It is a labor of love but I have literally spent my life researching these Truths but that end my responsibility....letting Christians know the Truth.

Most of the Truths are not a go or no go situation for salvation. Some may affect salvation....again that is up to Christ at Judgment Day. Some of these false beliefs can lead people to criticize or condemn people unjustly and if they turn them away from Christianity and their souls are lost.....will they be held responsible on Judgment Day. Again I do not know....that is up to Christ.

So if you do not agree with me or do not believe me.....no harm no foul between you and me.....But you might consider if God notices what you do with Truth.
 
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and I have more
This happened @ 1989 . Me my wife and young son were eating at the kitchen table and storm started with very loud thunder . My son was getting scared and we said God will protect us and about a minute later BOOM ! The house was struck , the breaker popped on the window air conditioner that was right next to us . All of our electronics were blown up and the drain trap on the bath tub had all debris blown out and stuck to the ceiling . Outside the house we found a hole blown in the cast iron septic tank pipe and about 6 feet away the gas line to our propane tank had about 4 inchs of it that were melted and misshaped from the lightning .We later found out the ground was NOT hooked up at our power meter . Many years later a large hickory tree died that was in our front yard and upon getting it cut down we found out it was all burned down inside of the center of the tree . Praise the Lord we are still here !

Good story.
 
You might be surprised how complicated this topic is….centuries of discussions and I will try to condense it here…

Virgin….the meaning….the ramifications and perceptions and cogitations are all deep topics in relation to cultures and time periods. Here are some of the talking points….

The meaning of virgin in language verses the use of the word virgin as it is applied.
In modern times we have a tendency to perceive virginity as clinical virginity…. Hymen intact. Or the physical status of a female’s genitalia in relation to her involvement with a man or men.

In ancient times….LOL….everything was from the male perspective. And in ancient times virgin was a loose term….put it was a term that only applied to females because it all hinged on access to the womb. If it had been accessed or if access was proper. Marriages were formed by joining so that was proper access….proper access was limited to one man. So this meaning can be as God and Miriam phrased it “have not known a man” or it could mean a married or unmarried young lady that had not had a baby.

Why the focus on the status of the womb?

1.In a strictly patriarchal society it had to do with legitimate bloodlines.

2. Disease….In ancient times biological diseases were not that well understood…. thinking more along the lines of curses or divine punishment or at the other end demonic. They thought of it as…..involvement with female genitalia that had been improperly accessed could kill you!….LOL…pretty crude but not entirely wrong, it just that it includes males and females. Typically a couple that only had sex with each other would not/will not encounter disease. They might not have understood correctly but in practice it worked out that way.

From all this came the concepts of clean and pure….purity, which tracked off into off the wall beliefs that were harmful. Because the genitalia is clean does not mean it is not diseased. Not having known a man does not make a woman pure and having sex does not make a person impure….pure women can have babies….I will put my money on mothers most of the time.
I'd like to explore this meaning more since I think it's important to understand.
It comes up in Christian conversation (theology) a lot.

This is from Wiki, what do you think of it?

For the word ALMAH

despite its importance to the account of the virgin birth of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew, scholars agree that it refers to a woman of childbearing age and has nothing to do with virginity.[2][3][1] It occurs nine times in the Hebrew Bible[4] and in every usage the word is either used for a woman who is indicated to be a virgin or as indeterminate.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah#:~:text=The Hebrew Bible uses an,, betulim (‏בְּתוּלִים).

Then there's the word BETULAH:
The Hebrew Bible uses an unrelated word, betulah (‏בְּתוּלָה), to refer to a virgin,[12] as well as the idea of virginity

So almah is any woman of child-bearing age.
Betulah is what we would understand as "virgin" in our time.


Do you agree with the above?
In simple terms please.
 
So now the topic turns to sex, women, and marriage!
Oh Noooo! The devil is coming! The devil is coming! Lock the doors and hide the children!
The Truth is shocking so buckle up and hang on to your hats!

Those dadgum women!
Women! Can’t live with’em………….….…pass the peanuts.

Women caused the fall of man and made it necessary that even the Son of God had to be tortured and die on the cross! Guilt and shame should be heavy on their hearts and first in their minds for as long as they all shall live!

It started with the curse on Eve…. I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.
Genesis 3:16

So as it was women were treated like property and their breeding became husbandry and a man could have a herd of women. Their self worth being defined by the status of their crouch and thereby their place in society and religion as 2nd rate human beings….as property….always something less than men in God’s eyes. When the Israelites were preparing to meet God at Mt. Sinai God said to the men......“Be ready for the third day; do not go near a woman.” Exodus 19:15

First the property of her father and then she would be sold to another man as his property….wife. The father was expected to deliver a “virgin” daughter. If not, she was damaged goods and could be killed and her body laid at her father’s door step in accordance with the Mosaic Law. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 As a continuing qualifier a woman’s crouch defined her self worth and character….and future. No such conditions for men. And when she married she could find herself as part of the herd. Her primary importance was to produce male children. Importance yes….women did not have a member to be circumcised to be part of the Covenant with God….it appears that they had to have a male child to be part of the Covenant. If you notice it seemed very important to them.

When a man’s wife or wives grew older and could not produce children he could write her or them a letter of divorcement and marry a younger wife or wives. A divorced wife did not take her children or any property and in the Jewish culture it was almost a death sentence….Most Jewish men would not have her and if she married a Pagan she could be killed….her other option was prostitution. This cruelty was the main point Christ was objecting to when He was talking to the Jews about divorce….who could have had several wives. He was saying that if they divorced one of them they could not replace them.

Men could take wives or concubines. Fathers could sell their daughters as concubines….Effectively concubines are sex slaves. And they had even less rights and privileges than wives. Blood lineages through concubines is another topic.

Old Testament scriptures and Mosaic Laws pertaining to polygamy and concubinage. Genesis 4:19, Genesis 3:9, Genesis 30:1-43, Genesis 16:1-16, Genesis 25:6, Genesis 26:34, Exodus 2:21, Exodus 21:7-10, Leviticus 18:18, Numbers 12:1, Deuteronomy 21:15-17, Deuteronomy 25;2-10, Judges 8:20, 1st Samuel 1:2-2, 2nd Samuel 5:13, 2nd Samuel 12:7-8, Judges 8:20, 1st Chronicles 3:1-9, 1st Chronicles 4:5, 1st Chronicles 14:3, 2nd Chronicles 11:2, 2nd Chronicles 13:21, 2nd Chronicles 24:3, 1st Kings 11:1-43

A spot of perspective before we leave the Old Testament. There is a lot of negativity here but you and I know that there were probably a lot of couples that did not pay much attention to all this malarkey and loved each other and lived their lives in private.

Never the less this all moves into Christianity with the Jewish-Christians and Gentile-Christians, but not as a Law but more as customs. The Jews that had multiple wives were not required to divorce some of them to convert to Christianity. It does appear that early Christian leaders did not endorse polygamy or concubinage, but allowed it. Much like Martin Luther who stated in his article the Estate of Marriage. He could not condemn polygamy because the Bible did not condemn it.

The Jews practiced polygamy for another thousand years after the biblical period and some beyond that. For Jews and Christians concubinage becomes a fuzzy designation…and that is its own topic. But I have met concubines in Christian families.

As far as the second rate status of women in Christianity….this was not done by Christ….this was the reasoning of the Apostles and it is an example of them falling back on Old Testament Jewish beliefs.

1st Corinthians 7:1 The congregation of Corinth brings up this question to the Apostle Paul and he responds…. Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman.

1st Corinthians 11:8 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

1st Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

1st Timothy 2:11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.

1st Timothy 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

1st Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Now scholars say it appears that the Apostle Paul softened his stance on females and church service towards the end of his ministry….and I agree.

But still what the Apostle Paul says about marriage in 1st Corinthians chapter 7 seems to be more of a concession to allow marriage, than an endorsement. Allowing marriage to prevent sinning. Actually what he does endorse is celibacy….linking it to religion….and that will set the stage for some very bad things. Mostly because of how men interpreted the meaning. Actually, Paul may not have recommended marriage because Christ was to return soon….the whole living in the last days thing and also the persecutions that were to come….who would want to watch their wives and children in the Roman arena.

Then we move forward to what people call the Early Church Fathers and after the 5th century Doctors of the Church and what they believed about sex, women, and marriage….

TERTULLIAN 155-245
Tertullian was a prolific early Christian writer from Carthage in the Roman province of North Africa. And here is what he wrote of women…..

And do you not know that you are (each) an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil’s gateway: you are the unsealer of that (forbidden) tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert—that is, death—even the Son of God had to die. And do you think about adorning yourself over and above your tunics of skins?” De Cultu Feminarium

“A beautiful woman is a temple built over a sewer” the very consciousness of their own nature must evoke feelings of shame.

And do you not know that you are Eve? God’s sentence hangs still over all your sex and his punishment weighs down upon you. You are the devil’s gateway; you are she who first violated the forbidden tree and broke the law of God. It was you who coaxed your way around him whom the Devil had not the force to attack. With what ease you shattered that image of God: Man! Because of the death you merited, even the Son of God had to die

In Tertullian’s view, the sin of lust was why God had to send Christ into the world to die and atone for this first sin. As Christ atoned for the sin of Adam, the sin of Eve was atoned for in the life of Mary, Yeshua’s mother. The 2nd century CE produced stories of Mary’s background, that she was raised by priests in the Temple where she never encountered evil, and Mary became elevated as a perpetual virgin and the ideal model for all women.

As a necessary evil, the Church Fathers had rules for human intercourse. Only one position was allowed: man on top, woman on the bottom. Any other form indicated that the goal was not procreation, but lust. When later Christian missionaries encountered indigenous people in the Americas, Africa, and Asia, they taught them the 'correct' way to have sex; this is where the name 'missionary position' comes from. Sexual intercourse could only take place in a legal Christian marriage, and intercourse could only be performed when the woman was fertile. Once a woman entered menopause or if she was barren after several years, all sexual activity had to stop.

(In the interest of accuracy….the statement…”A beautiful woman is a temple built over a sewer.” Is a well known statement that more than one Early Church Father commented on but lesser known is its point of origin.)
 
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EPIPHANIUS 310–403
Bishop of Salamis and Cyprus, Heresiologist, While denouncing the female prophets Quintilla, Maximilla, and Priscilla, Epiphanius makes this remark: “Women are unstable, prone to error, and mean-spirited.”

St Ambrose (339-397)
”..marriage is a crime against God, because it changed the state of virginity that God gave every man and woman at birth....Marriage is a prostitution of the members of Christ, and married people ought to blush at the state in which they live.” ……Written by St. Ambrose

Origen of Alexandria ( c. 185 – c. 253) If you study Origen you will find he was unique. A very imaginative writer in the metaphysical aspects of Christianity and he was well know regarding translations and their comparisons.

Origen actually castrated himself because he thought his penis was tempting him. Ouch! This is after a slue of sexual issues and his statements against the evils of women and sex.

Origen did not approve of the sex….period…Not even in marriage and taught that although widowers can remarry, they are by no means crowned for this. He also argued in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 14:34–35 that female prophets never spoke publicly in the assembly. Origen described women as 'worse than animals' because of their constant state of lust.

Men should not sit and listen to a woman … ‘For it is improper for a woman to speak in an assembly, no matter what she says, even if she says admirable things, or even saintly things, that is of little consequence, since they come from the mouth of a woman………Origen of Alexandria

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM
Archbishop of Constantinople and Doctor of the Church, Born? ---Died September 14, 407 AD

“The woman taught once, and ruined all. On this account therefore he says, let her not teach. But what is it to other women, that she suffered this? It certainly concerns them; for the sex is weak and fickle, and he is speaking of the sex collectively.”

ST. AUGUSTINE Bishop of Hippo Regius in Numidia, Roman North Africa. , Latin Father of the Church and Doctor of the Church in Catholicism, 354–430

“I don’t see what sort of help woman was created to provide man with, if one excludes procreation. If woman is not given to man for help in bearing children, for what help could she be? To till the earth together? If help were needed for that, man would have been a better help for man. The same goes for comfort in solitude. How much more pleasure is it for life and conversation when two friends live together than when a man and a woman cohabitate?” ….. Written by St. Augustine

“… woman was given to man, woman who was of small intelligence and who perhaps still lives more in accordance with the promptings of the inferior flesh than by superior reason. Is this why the apostle Paul does not attribute the image of God to her?” ….. Written by St. Augustine

“Watch out that she does not twist and turn you for the worse. What difference does it make whether it is in a wife or in a mother, provided we nonetheless avoid Eve in any woman?”
…….. Written by St. Augustine

On the topic of sexual desire Augustine had this to say....“Who can control this when its appetite is aroused? No one! In the very movement of this appetite, then, it has no ‘mode’ that responds to the decisions of the will. But when those who delight in this pleasure are not moved to it at their own will, whether they confine themselves to lawful or transgress to a unlawful pleasures; but sometimes this lust importunes them in spite of themselves, and sometimes fails them when they desire to feel it, so that though lust rages in the mind, it stirs not in the body” .....Written by St. Augustine

“This diabolical excitement of the genitals…” (As St. Augustine refers to the act of sex.) …is evidence of Adam’s original sin which is now transmitted “from the mother’s womb,” tainting all human beings with sin, and leaving them incapable of choosing good over evil, or determining their own destiny.” ....Written by St. Augustine

“We must conclude, that a husband is meant to rule over his wife as the spirit rules over the flesh. and “the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.” ....Written by St. Augustine

Referring to the Hell that awaits those sinful women. Augustine in his famous Latin sermon ''Ad Fratres in Eremitate Sermo LXIX.'' He describes how Satan seized the damned female and commanded his fellow devils to “pierce her eyes with forks as she enjoyed looking at unclean things, pierce her mouth as she used them for blasphemy, pierce her heart, as she did not harbor piety, compassion, clemency, and forgiveness there, pierce her hands with the heavy fork forged in Hell since she reached with them at things unclean and did not use them to distribute alms and help her neighbors, use the fiery forks to pierce her legs that she used to dance and meet her lovers.' Then to the gates of Hell she is carried and then '"out steps a hideous, horrible dragon, always ready to devour sinners. The dragon inserts the female into his mouth, full of stench. After chewing and digesting its prey, the dragon vomits the female into a fiery lake, where millions of other sinners wait for their trial by our Lord."
.....Written by St. Augustine

St Jerome 342-420.
St. Jerome obviously preferred the company of women, (Because of the company he kept and most of his followers were women.) He still had this to say about the status of women: “….it is contrary to the order of nature, or of law, that women should speak in the assembly of men……and man should be commanded to love his wife, whereas the wife should fear her husband.” and he also said “Nothing is so unclean as a woman in her periods; what she touches she causes to become unclean.”
.....Written by St. Jerome

“Because Eve caused the fall of Man she and all women were cursed to painfully deliver children between urine and feces.” ....Written by St. Jerome

“He who ardently loves his own wife is an adulterer.” Meaning a man that loves his wife is committing adultery against God.....Written by St. Jerome

In the year 553 A.D. At a Council of bishops in Macon, which is now France, religious leaders debate and voted on whether or not females had souls. By a narrow margin the Bishops decide that females have souls. Like it was their choice.

Penitential regulation laid down in the 7th century by Theodore, Bishop of Canterbury, forbade menstruating women to take communion or even enter the church. At the French Synod of Meraux, menstruating women were specifically forbidden to come to church

We move forward to the year 940 A.D. A well-respected religious leader named Odo, who was the leader of the Monks of Cluny, wrote, “To embrace a woman is to embrace a sack of manure.” And I consider “….the beauty of a woman the greatest of snares.”

Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274 AD) I have the writings….the books that St Augustine and the Doctor of the Church Thomas Aquinas wrote….both were intelligent but in my estimation Thomas was much smarter than Augustine. But even so here are some small examples of what he had to say about women….

As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence; such as that of a south wind, which is moist, as the Philosopher observes (De Gener. Animal. iv, 2).

“the father and mother are loved as principles of our natural origin. Now the father is principle in a more excellent way than the mother, because he is the active principle, while the mother is a passive and material principle. Consequently, strictly speaking, the father is to be loved more.” Summa Theologica, Q. 26, Art. 10

“Therefore, if there were no other natural influence at work tending toward the conception of female offspring, such conception would be wholly outside the design of nature, as is the case with what we call ‘monstrous’ births.” De Veritate Q. 5, Art. IX, Diff. 9

Thomas Aquinas could have done much better and set Christianity on the right path in regard to women….but he did not. And this goes onto the topic of wisdom….what is wisdom? The scriptures say that King Solomon was the wisest of men….so why did he build temples to Pagan Gods and worship in them. What is wisdom? I am particularly suited to explain this because I have worked with a lot of geniuses….Quantum science….Quantum mechanics ….Astrophysics at several sites….
Wisdom is more that just the ability of the brain.
Wisdom is more that just education….data.
Wisdom is more that just experience.
Wisdom is more than just religion.
Wisdom is the ability to take all that and rationalize it out to correct conclusions. The mental function of rationalizing is independent of any topic. It is what brings any topic to a logical conclusion.
 
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Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, Hitler, the Una-bomber, John Wayne Gacy, and Ted Bundy, some of these men were considered very smart and well educated…but their reasoned conclusions were faulty. Of course the ECF’s were not serial killers or mad dictators, but what they preached caused millions of women to endure humiliation, suffering, torture, and death….for centuries. So when you get down to the brass tacks of it....who was worse?

Because the subject matter is so basic, that is the fair treatment of women, and they went so far off the rails to preach hate, harm, and evil….I do not trust anything they said at face value. Because like I said reasoning is not about information, it is the correlation of information formulating a conclusion. It is the processing of the topic and this process, this ability in their minds was flawed, so it could possibly affect their conclusions on any topic.

So I have to question everything they believed and said. Not that they were not right on some things, but the serial killers were also right on some things, but their conclusions that drove their beliefs and actions was clearly wrong…and of course very harmful. It was like these guys thought that God hated women, so they took the ball and ran with it. God made every to do with relationships and procreation, from physical attraction to love to sexual relations to the delivery of babies. These guys disregard the truth and developed conclusions that it was all attributed to Satan and sin. WOW! Christian leaders have to consider the ramifications of what they preach!

MARTIN LUTHER 1483-1546
When he posted his 95 theses, on the door of the castle church in Wittenberg, Germany on October 31 1517…Luther was a thirty-four-year-old Catholic priest and professor of theology at Wittenberg University and later became the key reformer that lead to Protestantism.
And here is what he wrote of women.

“For woman seems to be a creature somewhat different from man, in that she has dissimilar members, a varied form and a mind weaker than man. Although Eve was a most excellent and beautiful creature, like unto Adam in reference to the image of God, that is with respect to righteousness, wisdom and salvation, yet she was a woman. For as the sun is more glorious than the moon, though the moon is a most glorious body, so woman, though she was a most beautiful work of God, yet she did not equal the glory of the male creature.”

The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes. –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546), Works 12.94

Now on a related top Martin Luther wrote an article on marriage called the “Estate of Marriage” written in 1519, It is pretty long, but if you want to read it here it is.


Like I said one of the things he said was that he could not condemn or forbid polygamy because the Bible does not condemn or forbid it. And what he does not say is anything about wedding ceremonies.

Now I am speculating that Christians took note of what Martin said in 1519 and decided that it was time to make wedding ceremonies a requirement to be married. Wedding ceremonies performed in churches by a minister. Because not long after that the Protestant denominations started to make it a requirement. Now again, what I am not saying, is that weddings ceremonies were not popular or were not occurring all along after the biblical era. Even though historically the first Christian wedding is not documented until the 9th century. I am sure there were a lot wedding ceremonies that occurred before that and after that….just not required. And most of this comes from the Gentile side of Christianity because it was part of their culture.

After the 2nd century there were Christian leaders that argued that intercourse existed for one purpose — procreation and anything else was a sin. Therefore, any sexual acts for pleasure were widely condemned. This became predominate with Christian leaders after the 4th century. So we come to Perspectives….I say predominate with Christian leaders because we do not know how many Christians subscribed to these beliefs….

But as time went on as a whole Christian leaders preached that ugly, sadness, and suffering was good and beauty, pleasure, and happiness was bad. And then Christianity developed the belief in Flagellation, where groups would whip themselves and others with the beliefs associated with penance or suffering like Christ suffered and some even allow themselves to be crucified. This practice still exist today….with certain groups.

Thomas Aquinas, warned that if a man slept with his wife just for pleasure, it was akin to treating her like a prostitute. “Sex is not for enjoyment.

Aquinas warned, “It is only for procreation. Taking any pleasure from doing it was essentially the same as prostitution.” And thereby sinful.

Anselm of Canterbury, an 11th-century monk, put it this way: There is one evil, an evil above all other evil, that I am aware is always with me, that grievously and piteously lacerates and afflicts my soul. It was with me from the cradle, it grew with me in childhood, in adolescences, in my youth it always struck me, and it does not desert me even now that my limbs are failing because of my old age. This evil is sexual desire. Anselm described sexual desire as “The storm of lust that has smashed and battered my unhappy soul, emptied it of all strength, and left it weak and empty.”

The Catholic Church went out of its way to limit sexual intercourse — even between married couples. Religious laws and proclamations issued by the Catholic Church tried to restrict when married couples could have sexual relations, and they ended up banning sex for most of the year. The Catholic Church put tons of restrictions on when married couples could have sex, and the conditions thereof. And most of all if you enjoyed it, it was a sin.

“No sex on Sundays!” one rule proclaimed, “That is the Lord’s Day, and it shouldn’t be contaminated by something as dirty, nasty, and sinful as sex! And don’t plan on doing it on Thursdays or Fridays, either, because those days should be spent preparing for communion.

Intercourse was also banned during Lent, before Christmas, and at the Feast of Pentecost, which together added over five months during which it was disallowed. On top of that, early Christians were not supposed to have sex on Feast Days. You might think it was just casual rules but they were watching when women had children and calculating if they conceived during these no sex periods. The stories of the punishment for this get pretty wild so you can look it up if you want.

Many of the monastic fathers saw women as evil, associating man with the spirit and woman with the flesh so that “every act of intercourse was seen as the spirit of man being corrupt with the sinful flesh of women and women were viewed as insatiable and innate temptresses to lead good men to ruin. So the Church therefore exercised degrading, abusive methods to control women’s bodies. (The birth control pill was a nightmare for them. I remember when it came out.)

So next we enter the era of the witch-hunts…Know this for certain, what happened at the Salem Witch Trials are the G-rated version of what went on in Europe. And the Salem Witch Trials were pretty much the extent of the Protestant involvement with the witch-hunts.

In 1231 Pope Gregory the IX officially initiated the Inquisitions and the processes known as auto-da-fe.....torture! The Inquisition or Inquisitors, were a large body of clergy and monks that served in several countries. They were trained by the Church, they were funded by the Church, and under complete control of the Church. Just a few years later Pope Gregory offered the services of the Inquisitors to the witch hunters. In 1244 at the Council of Narbonne he ordered that in the sentencing of witches, no husband should be spared because of his wife, nor wife because of her husband. Children were allowed to be tortured and killed as young as nine and a half years. Many times children were forced to watch their parents die.

In 1484 Pope Innocent VIII issued the Bull Summis Desideranter, authorizing two Dominican Inquisitors, Heinrich Kramer and Jakob Sprenger, to systemize the procedures for the interrogation of witches. Two years later in 1486, they produced a manual called the Malleus Maleficarum, which is Latin for The Hammer Of Witches which was more or less a torture manual for women. The Church financed and supervised the publishing of the manuals that were ordered and sent out to all Inquisitors. This manual was published with 14 editions between 1486 and 1520, and at least 16 other editions between 1574 and 1669. All editions were financed by the Church and printed under the supervision and the authority of the Church and distributed by the Church to the Inquisitors.

Some of the so called truths that the Malleus Maleficarum stated was that the belief in such things as witches was so essential to the Catholic faith that believing otherwise was in itself heresy. The Church believed it had the authority to torture and kill people because people did not own their own bodies.
 
Suspected witches were usually Christian women and many had money or land that could be confiscated in lieu of payment of tortures and executions. They were stripped and the most tender parts of their bodies tortured with priests and monks looking on and documenting everything. The witch-hunts started in the 1100’s and the last witch to be burnt was Janet Horne in 1727.

Now what went on with these witch tortures?…the stories that come forward ….are they exaggerations….or did they limit the horror. You can check it out for yourself….but for me….a military person that has seen blood, guts, and gore in the Middle East….these stories even made me sick!

Now some say that tens of thousands of women were killed during the witch-hunts and some say millions. Since there are accounts of 20,000 being killed in one town and other townships being depopulated and the witch-hunts lasting over 500 years in around 10 countries…I am going to go with upwards to a million. And the Catholic Church was not the only one killing women, some of it was just town’s people killing women they thought were witches. And men were killed to just not as many.

Now perspective and truths….The Catholic Church has made official apologies for the witch-hunt and inquisitions and even the killings of reformists….The reformists drove the Catholic Church to reform itself. And today the Catholic Church is better than it ever has been. Catholic people are wonderful but…but I still would not give you 2 cents for the Vatican and they need to get rid of the celibacy requirement for the clergy because it is a horrid thorn in their side….if they want to be celibate on their own…fine.

So where do we go from here?

When you look at the history of how women have been treated, it is all sad and a despicable thing for Judaism and Christianity. It is a credit to women and their ceaseless love of the Lord that they did not abandon the religion and these hateful idiots. Let the religion that got its kicks being male dominant be a male only religion, with no women, no wives, and no children….it would die out in short order and how many men would be interested in it?

But no, the women stuck with it despite thousands of years of living as 2nd rate members in society and religion…being blamed for everything and slandered as evil. Tortured and killed by evil itself. When you get down to it, all that was wrong with Christianity and that is wrong with it….was done by men.

While all this was going on Christians owned slaves. Christians wrote articles justifying slavery. The Bible was referenced as supporting slavery. Thomas Jefferson was an interesting example; He had slaves but he loved them and it appears he had a slave as a lover. In his book the State of Virginia he both justified slavery and called for an end to it.


Either way Christians learned eventually that slavery was wrong.
We eventually learned that Polygamy and concubinage are wrong.
We eventually learned that Wedding Ceremonies are a good thing.
So now Christians need to learn that women deserve to be equal members in Christianity. They deserve to be treated fairly and women should be able to hold any position in the church. And women definitely make good preachers ….Some of the best pastoral teams that I have seen have been husband and wife and their kids.

Ever hear of the tower of Pisa? It maybe an example of what went wrong to start with. If the foundation of the religion was laid crocked, then as you built on it, it would only get worse.

And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Genesis 2:18

Before we get into these explanations the reference to “they” is a loose reference to those that have worked on the translations of the scriptures over the years.

Now if you look at the different translations no one seems to know how to translate the words that describe Eve. Different translations render it help meet, helpmate, helper, suitable helper, suitable companion, or wife. Actually it is not that difficult, they just do not like what it means. If you look at the actual Hebrew scriptures it appears as two words….ZR ZR…..It can be translated as Azer Azer. But what does that mean? What it translates to, they did not like. So they were grasping at straws to think of something that would not cause too many questions to be asked….ultimately anything would due but the Truth.

This is actually something that happens in the Bible….if people did not understand something or did not like it, they just changed it. Why do we call Christ’s mother Mary? Because Miriam chastised Moses for marrying a Pagan woman and was punished by God and Miriam means bitterness or rebellion in Hebrew. That simply would not due for the name of Christ’s mother….so we call her Mary meaning Star of the sea.

Taking a side bar here….The same thing goes for the Magi…..Magic…. witch …..sorcerer….magikan…no that is not a mis-spelling. If you look in the Strong’s this is what the word Magi means. They could not understand or explain why witches would be interested in Yeshua.

Why would witches worship Yeshua? So they translated the word to Wise Men…We three Kings of orient are….The scriptures do not say they were kings or from the orient or that there was only 3 of them and the gifts were not token gestures….the scriptures refer to the gifts as a treasure. So between changing the scriptures and developing a counter tradition, they pretty much changed everything.

The Magi had a close association with the Media….pronounced Mad-eye.

Not that they had a “mad eye” that is just how it is pronounced. They were out of Tyre and Persia and Alexandria, Egypt. The were tracking a strobe light that moved and was probably a few thousand feet in the air….not a celestial star.

They were probably in Alexandria when they saw the light “in the east” and followed it around the Mediterranean and then the light was headed west and they entered Bethlehem from the east….which would be the normal land route. And then the strobing light stopped over Yeshua and his family. The Magi were not from the orient….but they did entered Bethlehem from the east and they originally saw the light in the east and followed it around the Mediterranean.

The Magi were highly educated and were more less men and women of science that could do things that people could not explain or understand so back then they had a tendency to call such things sorcery. They were actually not witches. So what was their interest in Christ? Why give Him a treasure? Why worship Him? Their origins go back to Melchizedek and if you look in the Book of Hebrews, Christ was of the Order of Melchizedek, a High Priest of the Order of Melchizedek. This is a big deal and the connections are pretty broad. The Magi out of Tyre had connections with King David and Mary Magdalene. Magdalene is not a surname….the scriptures actually say Mary the Magdalene and Magdalene means female of the Magi. It is like Leonardo Da Vinci…the “Da” means “of” ---Vinci....Leanardo was from Vinci. Mag-Da-Lynn….female of the Magi.

The Magi gave Christ and his parents a treasure for financing and Mary supported Christ’s ministry financially. Luke 8:2-3 Now as a theologian I am not Bible Only and as such I give this explanation, admitting that some of it is from the Bible and some of it is from outside sources. So you can take it for what it is worth….

Now back to the help meet…Azer Azer….These words do not appear anywhere else in the scriptures. Imagine that! The words do not mean help or helper. By themselves the words imply the type of protection that rushes to you to protect you and to strengthen you by surrounding you with strength and protection. The duel use of the word in regard to a female implies a much more intimate and powerful meaning. The words imply “a person that strengthens you by an enveloping love.” And the meaning that they hated the most….Redeemer. Does this mean that in the future a woman would deliver the redeemer? Ever hear that the love of a woman can make a man feel ten feet tall and bullet proof …But in the end they were going to translate it any way but the correct way.

Now taking this story at face value and not considering the metaphorical or symbolic meanings…

So then Eve meets a crafty talking serpent….My question is; Could she have been prepared for such an encounter?….How long had she been alive since she was made from Adam’s rib? Was this the first time she had meet this creature? Why would God allow it in Eden? Actually the Paradise of Eden, that is another topic.

So she tells Adam about the encounter and offers him the fruit…(The scriptures do not call it an apple)…and he accepts it. From here on she is forever labeled a tempter and takes the blame for the fall of man.

Still no matter how you cut it, they did not obey God. But is that what actually got them kicked out and what is this “knowledge of good and evil?”
 
But I am thinking the last straw was when Adam blamed God for what had happened. And the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me some of the fruit of the tree, and I ate.” Geneses 3:12 Taking none of the blame himself and even blaming God….inferring that God had given him a defective female which had caused all this. If you look at the history of it all it is clear men don't like taking blame when things go awry. They like the idea of the “escape goat.”

But either way Eve takes all the blame and all women are blamed for the fall of Man and all women are cast in the role as temptresses of men and from then on men should not listen to women. And the rest is history, women were considered as inferior in all things and could very well lead good men to perdition.

So like the tower of Pisa, Judaism and Christianity, was headed the wrong direction from the start and their wrongness became insane evilness as they tortured and killed upwards to a million women during the witch-hunts.

I have not mentioned the scripture in the New Testament that says that we are all equal in Christ….Would it matter….men did not pay any attention to it then or today

So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There

is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.
Galatians 3:26-4:7

Old habits die hard and change moves along at a slow pace.
How many good men lived in the era of slavery and did nothing to end it?
How many good men own slaves?
Slavery was wrong and Christian learned that lesson, but it took a long time.

The fair treatment of women by Christian men.
To me this is an odd statement in that it should be a given.
I can scold the men but historically past performance is indicative of future performance.

If nothing changes….nothing changes.

Women can drive this change. Sometimes I think there needs to be a college course for women on how to pick a man or rather the quality of a man that they would date and entertain a relationship with.

There in no reason to date anything but a mannerly Christian man that knows how to treat a woman fairly and kindly. This craziness can continue for millenniums or women can put and end to it in just a few short years by being selective.
 
I'd like to explore this meaning more since I think it's important to understand.
It comes up in Christian conversation (theology) a lot.

This is from Wiki, what do you think of it?

For the word ALMAH

despite its importance to the account of the virgin birth of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew, scholars agree that it refers to a woman of childbearing age and has nothing to do with virginity.[2][3][1] It occurs nine times in the Hebrew Bible[4] and in every usage the word is either used for a woman who is indicated to be a virgin or as indeterminate.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah#:~:text=The Hebrew Bible uses an,, betulim (‏בְּתוּלִים).

Then there's the word BETULAH:
The Hebrew Bible uses an unrelated word, betulah (‏בְּתוּלָה), to refer to a virgin,[12] as well as the idea of virginity

So almah is any woman of child-bearing age.
Betulah is what we would understand as "virgin" in our time.


Do you agree with the above?
In simple terms please.
Did I miss this?
Some times in my effort to be accurate it gets complicated.
Most of the internet agrees with the definitions you presented.
But like I said scholars have been debating this for centuries.
And some of the confusion has to do with the Septuagint.
And as the Dead Sea scrolls are translated they may shed some light on this.

But....to keep it simple and in general between you and me and the fence post.
I mostly agree with the definitions of the words that you presented.
So almah is any woman of child-bearing age.
Betulah is what we would understand as "virgin" in our time.


But....I want you to be knowledgeable of the topic.....so let me correct them a little bit.
Trying to keep it simple here.....
So almah is any woman of child-bearing age that has not had a baby.
Betulah is what we would understand as "virgin" in our time. But keep in mind we are thinking of hymens....they are thinking of penetration of any orifice, maybe not even a kiss. It is a definition of a word and a concept and then you have to deal with how it is used. If the scriptures use the word betulah it would imply that she had not known a man in any way. But the sticky wicket is....how did they verify that? Is it they, or is God saying it....God would know.
And then you put these terms in motion....even the phrase "has not known a man" can have different meanings in different contexts. For example.....
At times this becomes a very loose concept.
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.
Numbers 31:17-18
At times they are verifying thousands of women. How did they do that? How they did this was not only the way of the Israelites but other cultures also. They would look at their breasts and look for signs of suckling. And as I have explained not all women show signs of suckling when they have and some look like they have suckled when they have not. It is not an accurate method of verifying “virginity”

And I think that for the scholars it is not the definitions of the Hebrew words that throw them off it is how they are applied and actually what physical aspects they are referring to and which words actually appeared in the original scriptures
 
WOW you say. Alrighty then!
What can we agree on?

Is Satan a schemer?
Does Satan tempt us?
Can he put thoughts in our mind?

Hello Grailhunter
I don't remember talking with you before. I noticed you talking about the devil and I think you might enjoy it. Oease syop by and we can fellowship about ut.
It's a bit unirthodox so if you do comment be sure to bring a microscope. 😊
 
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