Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Grailhunter's Classroom

First, there are two words translated as "virgin" in the OT--bethulah and almah. Second, both words have more than one meaning. Bethulah clearly means a woman who hasn't had sexual intercourse (our modern definition) as seen in Deut 22:17-21. But it can also mean simply a young woman who is not married, a "maiden"; the idea is that of virility, not virginity.

Almah also clearly means one who hasn't had sexual intercourse (Gen 24:43, bearing in mind bethulah in 24:16), and also has the idea of maiden.

I cannot find any evidence that either word refers to a married woman who hasn't had a child. In the case of Isaiah 7:14, the virgin cannot refer to Isaiah's wife, if that's what the discussion is about, since Isaiah had a son with him at the time:

Isa 7:3 And the LORD said to Isaiah, “Go out to meet Ahaz, you and Shear-jashub your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Washer's Field. (ESV)

Regarding marriage:

"The legal codes of the Torah provided for marriage and divorce and required the marriage bond as a prerequisite for sexual relations."

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jewish-marriage-and-family-in-the-ancient-world/

Given the legal requirements around a man taking or asking for woman to be his wife, it seems unlikely that marriage was the act of consummation. I think the weight of the biblical testimony is against such an idea.

"The marriage was official when the betrothal took place. "Therewas no religious rite that was performed with the concluding ofthe marriage, although there was a feast at the conclusion ofthe festivities (Gen 29:27, Judg 14:10)"(Preuss, p. 104).A betrothed woman was, in the eyes of the people, legally married.When the marriage itself was consumated the husband received thewife and the family of the wife received a "dowry" (Pedersen,p. 68)."

https://www.theology.edu/marriage.htm
 
Again the term virgin in itself has no negative.....


I think I have already explained this.
Isaiah is married to his wife.....they could not have been married without having sex. Why is this?
Marriages back then were consummated by sex....no sex? No marriage.
No Hebrew process for platonic marriages.
You, despite your 1000 + word offering , are still void any explanation how a married Hebrew woman who had not conceived after a passage of time in duration to be of glaring notice by the community could feel anything positive in being identified in the local gossip columns by a word declaring her to be STILL childless ?
 
I cannot find any evidence that either word refers to a married woman who hasn't had a child. In the case of Isaiah 7:14, the virgin cannot refer to Isaiah's wife, if that's what the discussion is about, since Isaiah had a son with him at the time:
Prove that it did not refer to Isaiah wife.
And I have already covered hind sight prophetic interpretation.
 
You, despite your 1000 + word offering , are still void any explanation how a married Hebrew woman who had not conceived after a passage of time in duration to be of glaring notice by the community could feel anything positive in being identified in the local gossip columns by a word declaring her to be STILL childless ?
Where do you see glaring notice....in the scriptures and what gossip columns?
 
"The marriage was official when the betrothal took place. "Therewas no religious rite that was performed with the concluding ofthe marriage, although there was a feast at the conclusion ofthe festivities (Gen 29:27, Judg 14:10)"(Preuss, p. 104).A betrothed woman was, in the eyes of the people, legally married.When the marriage itself was consumated the husband received thewife and the family of the wife received a "dowry" (Pedersen,p. 68)."
The scriptures that you site do not say betrothal equal marrage.
 
First, there are two words translated as "virgin" in the OT--bethulah and almah. Second, both words have more than one meaning. Bethulah clearly means a woman who hasn't had sexual intercourse (our modern definition) as seen in Deut 22:17-21. But it can also mean simply a young woman who is not married, a "maiden"; the idea is that of virility, not virginity.
Yes I know there are two words for virgin and they have debating it for centuries. You can look them up and you can look the debate up.
 
The primary religion of the Persians was Zoroastrianism. Now the Zoroastrian god was not Yahweh but the religion itself had religious concepts that were similar to Christianity. Where as Judaism does not believe in a devil or Hell or Heaven as a destination for humans ….these concepts were in the Zoroastrian religion, so too the beliefs of the spiritual realm and the ministry of Angels. And it appears that the Jews became somewhat familiar with these beliefs because when Yeshua was referring to such things the Jews understood.
Was Jesus Jewish , didn't Jesus practice Judaism ? The bible Jesus used would have been the Tanakh .

Do Jews Believe in Satan?
 
Prove that it did not refer to Isaiah wife.
And I have already covered hind sight prophetic interpretation.
I did. Isaiah had his son with him prior to the prophecy. I'm curious how "virgin" can apply to Isaiah's wife when she's clearly had at least one child. Referring to it as "hind sight prophetic interpretation" is without warrant, other than to justify your particular interpretation of "virgin" which, as far as I can see, appears nowhere in Scripture.

Isa 7:3 And the LORD said to Isaiah, “Go out to meet Ahaz, you and Shear-jashub your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Washer's Field.
Isa 7:4 And say to him...
...
Isa 7:10 Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz:
Isa 7:11 “Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven.”
Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, and I will not put the LORD to the test.”
Isa 7:13 And he said, “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also?
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (ESV)

Clearly, God is using Isaiah to speak to Ahaz. God tells Ahaz to "ask a sign" of him, but when Ahaz refuses, God says he will give him a sign--"the virgin shall conceive and bear a son." That is future prophecy; I don't see how it can be otherwise.

The scriptures that you site do not say betrothal equal marrage.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/465162/jewish/The-Jewish-Marriage-Ceremony.htm

Notice before and after Sinai:

"Before the revelation (at Sinai), a man would meet a woman on the street and if both desired marriage, he would bring her into his home and have intercourse privately [without the testimony of witnesses] and she would become his wife. When the Torah was given, the Jews were instructed that in order to marry a woman, the man should "acquire her" in the presence of witnesses and then she would become his wife. As the Torah says, "when a man takes a woman and has intercourse with her." This taking is a positive commandment and is performed in one of three ways—with money, by contract, or by cohabitiation... and it is everywhere called kiddushin or erusin. And a woman who is "acquired" in one of these three ways is called mc'kudeshet or arusah [a betrothed woman]. And as soon as she is "acquired" and becomes betrothed, even though she has not cohabited and did not even enter the groom's home, she is a married woman."
 
Prove that it did not refer to Isaiah wife.
And I have already covered hind sight prophetic interpretation.
We have interlocking verses to give us understanding and leave little doubt of what was said in Isaiah 7:14.
Not speaking of Isaiah's wife .

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
 
Teacher,
You, despite your 1000 + word offering , are still void any explanation how a married Hebrew woman who had not conceived after a passage of time in duration to be of glaring notice by the community could feel anything positive in being identified in the local gossip columns by a word declaring her to be STILL childless ?
 
I did. Isaiah had his son with him prior to the prophecy. I'm curious how "virgin" can apply to Isaiah's wife when she's clearly had at least one child. Referring to it as "hind sight prophetic interpretation" is without warrant, other than to justify your particular interpretation of "virgin" which, as far as I can see, appears nowhere in Scripture.

Isa 7:3 And the LORD said to Isaiah, “Go out to meet Ahaz, you and Shear-jashub your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Washer's Field.
Isa 7:4 And say to him...
...
Isa 7:10 Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz:
Isa 7:11 “Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven.”
Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, and I will not put the LORD to the test.”
Isa 7:13 And he said, “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also?
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (ESV)

Clearly, God is using Isaiah to speak to Ahaz. God tells Ahaz to "ask a sign" of him, but when Ahaz refuses, God says he will give him a sign--"the virgin shall conceive and bear a son." That is future prophecy; I don't see how it can be otherwise.


https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/465162/jewish/The-Jewish-Marriage-Ceremony.htm

Notice before and after Sinai:

"Before the revelation (at Sinai), a man would meet a woman on the street and if both desired marriage, he would bring her into his home and have intercourse privately [without the testimony of witnesses] and she would become his wife. When the Torah was given, the Jews were instructed that in order to marry a woman, the man should "acquire her" in the presence of witnesses and then she would become his wife. As the Torah says, "when a man takes a woman and has intercourse with her." This taking is a positive commandment and is performed in one of three ways—with money, by contract, or by cohabitiation... and it is everywhere called kiddushin or erusin. And a woman who is "acquired" in one of these three ways is called mc'kudeshet or arusah [a betrothed woman]. And as soon as she is "acquired" and becomes betrothed, even though she has not cohabited and did not even enter the groom's home, she is a married woman."
I guess my Jewish grandparents conducted grail here when they signed the marriage contract in 1937 in Aramaic and also married under the choopa . I have photos of my grandpa declaring his love for his wife while using the cup of whine and also the breaking of the plates and the other traditions .

You are using chassidic sources which is Orthodox.
 
Was Jesus Jewish , didn't Jesus practice Judaism ? The bible Jesus used would have been the Tanakh .

Do Jews Believe in Satan?
To keep things in the realm of accuracy…

Lets straighten some stuff out…..don’t be offended….
1. Was Yeshua Jewish , didn't Yeshua practice Judaism? The answer to both is He is a God practicing Judaism. But what He was preaching is not Judaism…..Christianity is not Judaism.

There is no J’s in the Bible and no one knows where the word Jesus came from….it does not translate from anything in the scriptures….Its closest phonic similarity in the Greek is Zeus it closest translation means Hey horse! Christ’s name is Yeshua…..and the rest of them that have J’s in there name like Job, Jacob, Joseph, James, Jericho, Jerusalem…. put a Y in front of their name and that will be correct….they removed the Y’s and replaced them with J’s

In the OT God did not threaten the Israelites with Hell and Satan is not designated as the devil. So the Jews do not believe in Hell or Satan or a Heavenly reward…..not then and not today.
 
did. Isaiah had his son with him prior to the prophecy. I'm curious how "virgin" can apply to Isaiah's wife when she's clearly had at least one child. Referring to it as "hind sight prophetic interpretation" is without warrant, other than to justify your particular interpretation of "virgin" which, as far as I can see, appears nowhere in Scripture.
You read it....his son....not hers....
I did. Isaiah had his son with him prior to the prophecy. I'm curious how "virgin" can apply to Isaiah's wife when she's clearly had at least one child. Referring to it as "hind sight prophetic interpretation" is without warrant, other than to justify your particular interpretation of "virgin" which, as far as I can see, appears nowhere in Script
I did. Isaiah had his son with him prior to the prophecy. I'm curious how "virgin" can apply to Isaiah's wife when she's clearly had at least one child. Referring to it as "hind sight prophetic interpretation" is without warrant, other than to justify your particular interpretation of "virgin" which, as far as I can see, appears nowhere in Scripture.
 
I did. Isaiah had his son with him prior to the prophecy. I'm curious how "virgin" can apply to Isaiah's wife when she's clearly had at least one child. Referring to it as "hind sight prophetic interpretation" is without warrant, other than to justify your particular interpretation of "virgin" which, as far as I can see, appears nowhere in Scripture.

Isa 7:3 And the LORD said to Isaiah, “Go out to meet Ahaz, you and Shear-jashub your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Washer's Field.
Isa 7:4 And say to him...
...
Isa 7:10 Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz:
Isa 7:11 “Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven.”
Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, and I will not put the LORD to the test.”
Isa 7:13 And he said, “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also?
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (ESV)

Clearly, God is using Isaiah to speak to Ahaz. God tells Ahaz to "ask a sign" of him, but when Ahaz refuses, God says he will give him a sign--"the virgin shall conceive and bear a son." That is future prophecy; I don't see how it can be otherwise.


https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/465162/jewish/The-Jewish-Marriage-Ceremony.htm

Notice before and after Sinai:

"Before the revelation (at Sinai), a man would meet a woman on the street and if both desired marriage, he would bring her into his home and have intercourse privately [without the testimony of witnesses] and she would become his wife. When the Torah was given, the Jews were instructed that in order to marry a woman, the man should "acquire her" in the presence of witnesses and then she would become his wife. As the Torah says, "when a man takes a woman and has intercourse with her." This taking is a positive commandment and is performed in one of three ways—with money, by contract, or by cohabitiation... and it is everywhere called kiddushin or erusin. And a woman who is "acquired" in one of these three ways is called mc'kudeshet or arusah [a betrothed woman]. And as soon as she is "acquired" and becomes betrothed, even though she has not cohabited and did not even enter the groom's home, she is a married woman."

I never said the Jews did not have a process......they had a process for sure and the bride was treated as property. No ceremony....no vows....no requirement for a ceremony.
 
We have interlocking verses to give us understanding and leave little doubt of what was said in Isaiah 7:14.
Not speaking of Isaiah's wife .

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Would you believe I know the scriptures?
Read the story in Isaiah and tell me what it is about.

The NT… Miriam, she was in fact a virgin type as in “had not known a man”…..and most Hebrews wives were virgins before they were married. The phrase “a virgin will have a child” is shocking to us.
But back then young ladies were considered virgins until they had a child. So a virgin having a child would be the normal sequence to not being a virgin anymore.

Likewise Miriam was a virgin before she conceived….but never called a virgin afterward.
 
Last edited:
I guess my Jewish grandparents conducted grail here when they signed the marriage contract in 1937 in Aramaic and also married under the choopa . I have photos of my grandpa declaring his love for his wife while using the cup of whine and also the breaking of the plates and the other traditions .

You are using chassidic sources which is Orthodox.

Great for your grandparents....glad you have photos of it.

We are not talking about 1937 here.

But other than that I am missing your point.
 
Great for your grandparents....glad you have photos of it.

We are not talking about 1937 here.

But other than that I am missing your point.
That's an old tradition. .they do that based on old traditions ,very old .

Jews speak Hebrew ,why is the contract in Aramaic to this day ? Answer the Babylonian diaspora
 
That's an old tradition. .they do that based on old traditions ,very old .

Jews speak Hebrew ,why is the contract in Aramaic to this day ? Answer the Babylonian diaspora
I would say mostly correct considering the origins of the Jewish wedding ceremony.
 
Back
Top