Grailhunter
Member
This is not about you agreeing with me. And frankly I could not care less.
Just saying I am wrong carries no weight or significance. If you think I am wrong....prove me wrong.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Grailhunter's Classroom
- Thread starter Grailhunter
- Start date
This is not about you agreeing with me. And frankly I could not care less.
Just saying I am wrong carries no weight or significance. If you think I am wrong....prove me wrong.
Tenchi
Member
I have done already. That you can't recognize this indicates just how ill-equipped to be a teacher you are.
Grailhunter
Member
You have not proven anything.
You want to give it another try?
Beliefs, Truths, Facts.
Pick a topic and prove me wrong.
Just being condesending does not prove anything.
Consecrated Life
Member
Back to my question you have yet to answer then ( again)
According to what you have taught, the sex act being the accepted formation of the marriage , what possible basis then would the religious authorities have to condemn Christ's conception ?
The timing of any post-formation public celebration of a couple 1 month or 8 months pregnant having no bearing on an already established Marriage formation?
The physical proof of the marriage formation being the pregnancy.
Jhn 8:41
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Grailhunter
Member
I did answer this.....
Some times the answer is we do not know. Here we do not know "what possible basis then would the religious authorities have to condemn Christ's conception" Again we do not know what they knew or what they thought they knew?
Did they know that she was found to be pregnant while yet betrothed to Joseph? If Miriam and Joseph would have had sex they would be married, not betrothed.
Do the scriptures say there was a public celebration? For their betrothal? Or their marriage and when would it have occurred?.....Before Yeshua was born or after. The reason I say this is because one scripture says that Joseph took her as his wife and another says that she was still betrothed when they were traveling for the census in Bethlehem.
Consecrated Life
Member
The Mechanism of the betrothal being ended and the Marriage beginning is the sex act .
The sex act constituting the establishment of the marriage as you have taught , how would her pregnancy prove anything other than the betrothal had been terminated by sex and the marriage begun ?
The betrothal advancing to marriage would be cause for celebration not scandal .
Based on that fact the Pharisees would have zilch with which to accuse Christ's conception to be illicit .
Correct?
"..they went into a tent and had sexual relations - no wedding ceremony required. Rebekah being given to Isaac as his wife follows exactly the way in which Adam and Eve were united to each other as man and wife."
(Grailhunter)
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Grailhunter
Member
If I am understanding you correctly...
The reason I keep saying that "they were betrothaled" .... is because the scriptures keep referring to Miriam and Joseph as being betrothaled.
And it is a reason for us to celebrate but the scriptures do not denote that they celebrated their betrothal or their marriage.
Assuming things can cause false beliefs. Speculation is great, but you have to keep it in the column of speculation.
Consecrated Life
Member
So then the cycle of their Betrothal to Marriage, as described in scripture could not support the Pharisees claim of Jesus's illicit conception?
Given the fact that we know from scripture they were faithful to each other, what possibility does that leave for the Pharisees to base their claim of Jesus's illicit birth on ?
"..they went into a tent and had sexual relations - no wedding ceremony required. Rebekah being given to Isaac as his wife follows exactly the way in which Adam and Eve were united to each other as man and wife."
(Grailhunter)
Jhn 8:41
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Last edited:
Grailhunter
Member
Like I said we do not know what they knew.
We don't know how they knew it.
Was it a rumor? Did they know someone in the family?
Who is said what and when?
And the scriptures do not describe the cycle from betrothal to marriage in detail.
Consecrated Life
Member
What's to know ?
You have a man and a woman going thru what you have claimed to be the standard process, betrothal and then sex constituting marriage
The only two people who knew the real origin of Jesus's conception were Mary and Joseph.
And they were not talking.
We are told in scripture that Joseph was a " just man" who, even before being made aware of the Divine power at work in dream , kept the matter to himself, "privily".
Mat 1:19
Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example,
Grailhunter
Member
A standard process? LOL
How much of this do you consider "a standard process?" LOL Sure they could have kept it a secret for a while....and you know how many lies have to told to keep something like that a secret.
There is really nothing about this that is standard....
A God impregnating a woman and then 30 years later how many people knew about this? Did the Apostles and disciples know the real origin of Yeshua's conception? Does the scriptures say they did not tell people. And if they told people, how many believed them. By that time there are all kinds of rumors going around about Christianity. So again what did these Jews know? How did they know it?
I am just trying to stick with scriptures and not adding to them. If you dig into this further a whole lot of questions come up.
Consecrated Life
Member
You are doing nothing but adding to the scripture"
The scripture says that Joseph kept it private.
You are the one speculating & adding to what is not there
In addition there is scriptural proof in the same chapter that far as the pharisees were concerned Jesus was not from God and was conceived normally of a human father:
Jhn 8:57
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Grailhunter
Member
I do not add to the scriptures. You are the one that is trying to read things into the scriptures. LOL
I did not say that Joseph did not keep it private, but how long?
Like I said, Did the Apostles and the disciples know what happened? It is a rhetorical question because they wrote about it.
Consecrated Life
Member
Nothing says Joseph did anything but keep it private .
" but how Long" ( Grailhunter) did he do so is just another example of you adding to scripture what is not there, that Joseph did something other than exactly what the scripture says he did.
Keep it to himself to his grave.
There is no account of the apostles and Jesus discussing the subject of His conception in the Gospels.
And if you had modicum of spiritual discernment you would know why there would be no need to in the company of the Lord who needed never to do anything more than point to the scriptures concerning such questions of Himself.
The prophesy of His coming being clearly understood by the Apostles.
Unlike the learned Pharisees who did not have a clue of the prophesy concerning the manner of the Messiah's birth, as their foul accusation of illicit human conception makes clear.
Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Grailhunter
Member
I can go with this. For one I don't think he lived that long.
Do you think the Apostles guessed?
And do you think they kept it a secret from the disciples?
Just when and where the Apostles were told about this is not in the Gospels....but then again I don't think they wrote the Gospels using guess work.
Consecrated Life
Member
if you had modicum of spiritual discernment you would know why there would be no need to in the company of the Lord who needed never to do anything more than point to the scriptures concerning such questions of Himself.
The prophesy of His coming being clearly understood by the Apostles.
Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Grailhunter
Member
IN BETWEEN THE TESTAMENTS
AND THE STAGING FOR YESHUA’S MINISTRY
There was a time that we knew very little about what went on in between the testaments and we still do not know everything but a lot has been discovered.
My essay on this is nearly 300 pages….way too much for this forum so I have had to condense it and it was written back in the mid 90’s so I had to consider new information.
And since I condensed it, with less background the storyline is a little choppy, put it does gives the reader an overview of the overall history with a lot of the names of the players involved. So they can look them up themselves.
Still it is only for those that are interested in this time period because it is what some would call “dry history” even though I bring up some surprising topics. And it is long and there are people that have issues reading large topics for different reasons.
I am going to start at a point in the OT and move on into the time between the testaments and the circumstances at the start of Yeshua’s ministry.
So here we go…..
So the Jews were defeated in the Jewish-Babylonian War and the destruction of Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem occurred in 586 BC. An event that is known to be historical, and is described in the Hebrew Bible/OT in addition to archaeological and extra-biblical sources.
To setup the precursors to the destruction of the Temple…
After the Battle of Carchemish in 605 BCE, the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II besieged Jerusalem, which resulted in tribute being paid by the Judean king Jehoiakim. In the fourth year of Nebuchadnezzar II's reign, Jehoiakim refused to pay further tribute, which led to another siege of the city in Nebuchadnezzar II's seventh year (598/597 BCE) that culminated in the death of Jehoiakim and the exile to Babylonia of his successor Jeconiah, his court, and many others; Jeconiah's successor Zedekiah and others were exiled when Nebuchadnezzar II destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in his 18th year (587-586 BCE), and later deported the Jews which occurred in Nebuchadnezzar II's 23rd year (582 BCE). However, the dates of the deported groups and the sequence of group deportations, and the number of deportees vary depending on the source.
The cruelty of the Babylonians goes beyond modern comprehension and if described would seem like an empire that was insane. And this is true of a lot of the Pagan Empires, Kingdoms, and Dynasties ….that seem to be insane by our standards …..but not so unusual for the time period. That is why I say that if we were to go back to those time periods they would seem like an alien world to us.
But they deployed something that was very common in the ancient world and that was to erase your enemy and all memory of them by enslave your enemy and work the men to death and take their women and kill the older ones and impregnate the younger ones to have Babylonian children.….Known as breeding your enemy out of existence which could account for the lost tribes of Israel.
The Jews were taken to Babylonian and the ones that lived remained there from around 582 BCE and 539 BCE. This captivity lasted until they were freed by the Persian King Cyrus the Great.
Babylon fell to Persian King Cyrus in 539 B.C. As recorded in 2 Chronicles 36:22–23 and Ezra 1:1–11, Cyrus decreed throughout his empire that the Jews could return to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple.
Ezra 1:1–11
In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and also to put it in writing:
“This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:
‘The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Any of his people among you may go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the Lord, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem, and may their God be with them. And in any locality where survivors may now be living, the people are to provide them with silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with freewill offerings for the temple of God in Jerusalem.’” Then the family heads of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and Levites—everyone whose heart God had moved—prepared to go up and build the house of the Lord in Jerusalem. All their neighbors assisted them with articles of silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with valuable gifts, in addition to all the freewill offerings.
Moreover, King Cyrus brought out the articles belonging to the temple of the Lord, which Nebuchadnezzar had carried away from Jerusalem and had placed in the temple of his god. Cyrus king of Persia had them brought by Mithredath the treasurer, who counted them out to Sheshbazzar the prince of Judah.
This was the inventory:
In all, there were 5,400 articles of gold and of silver. Sheshbazzar brought all these along with the exiles when they came up from Babylon to Jerusalem.
And also….
2 Chronicles 36:22–23 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and also to put it in writing: “This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:“‘The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Any of his people among you may go up, and may the Lord their God be with them.’”
Besides all this the Persian King recovered some of the Temple’s gold. Over all it appears the Jews enjoyed a peaceful life under Persian rule. It was not that the Persians were not cruel and ruthless. History shows they were plenty cruel to their enemies it is just that you did not have to be one of their own for them to be kind to you. As the Bible indicates the Persian King was respectful of the Jewish God and likewise was respectful to His people.
The primary religion of the Persians was Zoroastrianism. Now the Zoroastrian god was not Yahweh but the religion itself had religious concepts that were similar to Christianity. Where as Judaism does not believe in a devil or Hell or Heaven as a destination for humans ….these concepts were in the Zoroastrian religion, so too the beliefs of the spiritual realm and the ministry of Angels. And it appears that the Jews became somewhat familiar with these beliefs because when Yeshua was referring to such things the Jews understood.
And the similarities of the character of their primary god…Ahura Mazda and Yahweh and the mystical reading of the Jewish prophecies maybe why the Magi were interested in Yeshua and were tracking His arrival. The connections between the Magi and the Media in Persia are historic….Media pronounced Medi.
And so it was for the Jews from 539 BC until 312 BC when Alexander the Greek conquered Persia…..
AND THE STAGING FOR YESHUA’S MINISTRY
There was a time that we knew very little about what went on in between the testaments and we still do not know everything but a lot has been discovered.
My essay on this is nearly 300 pages….way too much for this forum so I have had to condense it and it was written back in the mid 90’s so I had to consider new information.
And since I condensed it, with less background the storyline is a little choppy, put it does gives the reader an overview of the overall history with a lot of the names of the players involved. So they can look them up themselves.
Still it is only for those that are interested in this time period because it is what some would call “dry history” even though I bring up some surprising topics. And it is long and there are people that have issues reading large topics for different reasons.
I am going to start at a point in the OT and move on into the time between the testaments and the circumstances at the start of Yeshua’s ministry.
So here we go…..
So the Jews were defeated in the Jewish-Babylonian War and the destruction of Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem occurred in 586 BC. An event that is known to be historical, and is described in the Hebrew Bible/OT in addition to archaeological and extra-biblical sources.
To setup the precursors to the destruction of the Temple…
After the Battle of Carchemish in 605 BCE, the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II besieged Jerusalem, which resulted in tribute being paid by the Judean king Jehoiakim. In the fourth year of Nebuchadnezzar II's reign, Jehoiakim refused to pay further tribute, which led to another siege of the city in Nebuchadnezzar II's seventh year (598/597 BCE) that culminated in the death of Jehoiakim and the exile to Babylonia of his successor Jeconiah, his court, and many others; Jeconiah's successor Zedekiah and others were exiled when Nebuchadnezzar II destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in his 18th year (587-586 BCE), and later deported the Jews which occurred in Nebuchadnezzar II's 23rd year (582 BCE). However, the dates of the deported groups and the sequence of group deportations, and the number of deportees vary depending on the source.
The cruelty of the Babylonians goes beyond modern comprehension and if described would seem like an empire that was insane. And this is true of a lot of the Pagan Empires, Kingdoms, and Dynasties ….that seem to be insane by our standards …..but not so unusual for the time period. That is why I say that if we were to go back to those time periods they would seem like an alien world to us.
But they deployed something that was very common in the ancient world and that was to erase your enemy and all memory of them by enslave your enemy and work the men to death and take their women and kill the older ones and impregnate the younger ones to have Babylonian children.….Known as breeding your enemy out of existence which could account for the lost tribes of Israel.
The Jews were taken to Babylonian and the ones that lived remained there from around 582 BCE and 539 BCE. This captivity lasted until they were freed by the Persian King Cyrus the Great.
Babylon fell to Persian King Cyrus in 539 B.C. As recorded in 2 Chronicles 36:22–23 and Ezra 1:1–11, Cyrus decreed throughout his empire that the Jews could return to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple.
Ezra 1:1–11
In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and also to put it in writing:
“This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:
‘The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Any of his people among you may go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the Lord, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem, and may their God be with them. And in any locality where survivors may now be living, the people are to provide them with silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with freewill offerings for the temple of God in Jerusalem.’” Then the family heads of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and Levites—everyone whose heart God had moved—prepared to go up and build the house of the Lord in Jerusalem. All their neighbors assisted them with articles of silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with valuable gifts, in addition to all the freewill offerings.
Moreover, King Cyrus brought out the articles belonging to the temple of the Lord, which Nebuchadnezzar had carried away from Jerusalem and had placed in the temple of his god. Cyrus king of Persia had them brought by Mithredath the treasurer, who counted them out to Sheshbazzar the prince of Judah.
This was the inventory:
| gold dishes | 30 |
| silver dishes | 1,000 |
| silver pans | 29 |
| 10 gold bowls | 30 |
| matching silver bowls | 410 |
| other articles | 1,000 |
In all, there were 5,400 articles of gold and of silver. Sheshbazzar brought all these along with the exiles when they came up from Babylon to Jerusalem.
And also….
2 Chronicles 36:22–23 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and also to put it in writing: “This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:“‘The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Any of his people among you may go up, and may the Lord their God be with them.’”
Besides all this the Persian King recovered some of the Temple’s gold. Over all it appears the Jews enjoyed a peaceful life under Persian rule. It was not that the Persians were not cruel and ruthless. History shows they were plenty cruel to their enemies it is just that you did not have to be one of their own for them to be kind to you. As the Bible indicates the Persian King was respectful of the Jewish God and likewise was respectful to His people.
The primary religion of the Persians was Zoroastrianism. Now the Zoroastrian god was not Yahweh but the religion itself had religious concepts that were similar to Christianity. Where as Judaism does not believe in a devil or Hell or Heaven as a destination for humans ….these concepts were in the Zoroastrian religion, so too the beliefs of the spiritual realm and the ministry of Angels. And it appears that the Jews became somewhat familiar with these beliefs because when Yeshua was referring to such things the Jews understood.
And the similarities of the character of their primary god…Ahura Mazda and Yahweh and the mystical reading of the Jewish prophecies maybe why the Magi were interested in Yeshua and were tracking His arrival. The connections between the Magi and the Media in Persia are historic….Media pronounced Medi.
And so it was for the Jews from 539 BC until 312 BC when Alexander the Greek conquered Persia…..
Last edited:
Grailhunter
Member
Sidenote….
The Greek Empire! Nope!
The Roman Empire! Nope
I am copying a common historical statement here….
Starting in 358 BC, Philip II of Macedonia took on nearby city-states to expand his own territory. He ultimately unified Greece. When Philip was killed, his son, Alexander the Great, took power and then built Greece into an empire. Alexander conquered first Asia Minor and then Egypt and the eastern Mediterranean.
Most of this is inaccurate and it is a good example of how loosely historians use terms, maybe because they do not think people will understand the complexity of the time period.
Why is the statement inaccurate?
1. No person unified Greece. Greece was never unified. Greece was never an Empire. Greece existed as separate City States, each city was like it own country….with its own leadership. Here are a few of the Greek communities Ptolemaic, Seleucid, Macedonian, Antipatrid, and Antigonid….None of them really where ever kingdoms or empires. Now the term dynasty might fit to some degree. Do you remember the series Dallas and Dynasty? Something like that….most of the Greek City States were ruled by the family that the city and or territory was founded by.
And it was pretty much the first of it kind. It was like a diamond surrounded by mud….that is the nice way of putting it. What set them apart was the belief in the human intellect, individualism, self worth, and the importance of freedom….they were the ones that invented the concept of democracy and organized higher learning.
Although the Greek City States were independent of each other, they were held together by mutual respect and the Greek culture that was admired by all of them. Still humans being humans, they got along most of the time and sometimes they did not and of course a sprinkling of intrigue.
Some historians will tell you that the Greeks and Romans were best of buds….then they will tell you that the Roman Empire conquered the Greek Empire in 146 BC. Well for one it was a soft conquer and more of an absorption of the City States. Battles…Yes…Complete
Annihilation and destruction of architecture? No…It was never the intent to annihilate the Greeks or their culture. The Greeks and Roman shared a similar culture and in fact adopted most of it. It was mostly about expand Roman territory and a soft rule over them.
And the Roman Empire did not conquer the Greek Empire. At the time Rome was a Republic, the Empire status does not occur until around 27 BC. And the Greeks never had an Empire….The City States were their own entities and had their own interests and initiatives but still militarily they could combine forces.
2. Alexander the Great did not build Greece into an Empire….no Empire…if you want to call it a dynasty….it is a family thing with more than one family and more than one territory. They had common interests, a common culture, but no central command.
3. The conquering of Egypt was another soft conquer. Alexandra became the location of Greek schools and it was the home of the Great Library of Alexandra, and one of the wonders of the ancient world, the Great lighthouse of Alexandra of which Archimedes designed.
4. Greeks and Romans shared a similar, even common culture.
These are some of the things that you have to keep in mind as you read here or go to look it up for yourself. You are going to see Greeks from different territories involved with Israel and Romans from the Roman Republic involved with Israel….and then the Roman Empire after 27 BC.
The relationship between the Jews and the Greeks…..it is the whole Hellenistic thing. A lot of the Jews liked the Persian culture and here a lot of the Jews liked the Greek culture and adapted to their culture which is called Hellenized. Hellenized does not mean Hell ….Hellen means Greek. And Hellenistic applies to both the Greeks and Romans. A lot of Jews became Greek…so there is a term called Greek Jews.
And a lot of the conservative Jews hated this and feared this. They were afraid the Jews would become Pagans and the Jewish religion would disappear. In the 2nd century most Jews could not read or speak Hebrew…which means they could not read their own scriptures. This is one of the reasons the Greeks organized the writing of the Septuagint….initially for the Alexandrian Library. And probably one of the reasons the New Testament was written mostly in Greek.
The conservative Jews hated being ruled over by anybody, even if they were being treated fairly. Which was kind of a catch 22 because as we will see the Jews were not that good at self-rule.
So anyway the conservative Jews started to make trouble and sew discord and they were apparently successful. So much trouble that the Seleucid Greek King Antiochus took control of Jerusalem and had a pig sacrificed on the Temple altar and set up a statue of Zeus in the Temple in 168 BC, effectively shutting the Temple down. Then a Greek army setup the occupation of Jerusalem.
At which point the Jews started planning a violent response. The main phase of the Jewish response to all this lasted from 167–160 BC, and is called the Maccabean Revolt. The Jews organized as a small army and was lead by Judah Maccabee, hence the name Maccabean Revolt. The account of which is chronicled later in the books of 1 and 2 Maccabees.
The rebellion started as a guerrilla movement in the Judean countryside, raiding towns and terrorizing the Greek officials and upper class. But the Jews eventually developed a larger more organized army capable of attacking the fortified Greek Seleucid Cities States. The Jews learned from the Greeks that it was not just about battle, it was about the fear and shock factor….making grouse displays of agony of those that lost the battle and a unrelenting intent to win no matter what the cost. Impaling someone without hitting vital organs was a skill and a common practice…fields full of impaled, dead and dying Greek soldiers and civilians.
In 164 BC, the Maccabees captured Jerusalem, a significant early victory. The cleansed the temple and rededicate the altar on 25 Kislev which is the source of the Festival of Hanukkah.
Judah Maccabee was killed in 160 BC at the Battle of Elasa against the Greek General Bacchides, and afterwards the Greek Seleucids reestablished direct control over Jerusalem, but remnants of the Maccabees under Judas's brother Jonathan Apphus’ continued war from the countryside. And in 141 BC the Jewish military commander Simon Thassi succeeded in expelling the Greeks from their citadel in Jerusalem and running them out of Jerusalem.
So why were the Greeks and then Romans so interested in Jerusalem? There nothing beneficial in the Jerusalem area for them ….it really did not produce anything that they needed. No special skills, no precious metals, no products or produce. The one things that the Jerusalem area did have was trade routes, one of which was the famed “spice route” which included a nearby seaport for commerce, so the peaceful movement of trade through that area was of vital importance. (Note to the reader: In this era spices were a commodity similar to silver and because they usually could not be made by most people, something as simple as pots and pans and kettles were of value to.)
Eventually, internal division among the Greeks and problems elsewhere on other fronts in their territories as well as the horrendous losses of the upper classes that left whole families impaled in their own front yards had an impact. The Greeks decided to remove the ban on Judaism, but for the Maccabees, that was not enough…. they saw being ruled over as a curse….a punishment from God, so they wanted to make things right with God and shed themselves of Paganism and wanted to reestablish the Israelite nation….self rule.
The Greeks had had enough, so the they agreed to letting the Jews establish self rule in the area and the Hasmonean Kingdom was allowed to form. This was all allowed on the terms that the Jews would keep the peace….the area calm and the trade routes unmolested. This requirement and concern for keeping the peace will be seen as the history unfolds.
The Greek Empire! Nope!
The Roman Empire! Nope
I am copying a common historical statement here….
Starting in 358 BC, Philip II of Macedonia took on nearby city-states to expand his own territory. He ultimately unified Greece. When Philip was killed, his son, Alexander the Great, took power and then built Greece into an empire. Alexander conquered first Asia Minor and then Egypt and the eastern Mediterranean.
Most of this is inaccurate and it is a good example of how loosely historians use terms, maybe because they do not think people will understand the complexity of the time period.
Why is the statement inaccurate?
1. No person unified Greece. Greece was never unified. Greece was never an Empire. Greece existed as separate City States, each city was like it own country….with its own leadership. Here are a few of the Greek communities Ptolemaic, Seleucid, Macedonian, Antipatrid, and Antigonid….None of them really where ever kingdoms or empires. Now the term dynasty might fit to some degree. Do you remember the series Dallas and Dynasty? Something like that….most of the Greek City States were ruled by the family that the city and or territory was founded by.
And it was pretty much the first of it kind. It was like a diamond surrounded by mud….that is the nice way of putting it. What set them apart was the belief in the human intellect, individualism, self worth, and the importance of freedom….they were the ones that invented the concept of democracy and organized higher learning.
Although the Greek City States were independent of each other, they were held together by mutual respect and the Greek culture that was admired by all of them. Still humans being humans, they got along most of the time and sometimes they did not and of course a sprinkling of intrigue.
Some historians will tell you that the Greeks and Romans were best of buds….then they will tell you that the Roman Empire conquered the Greek Empire in 146 BC. Well for one it was a soft conquer and more of an absorption of the City States. Battles…Yes…Complete
Annihilation and destruction of architecture? No…It was never the intent to annihilate the Greeks or their culture. The Greeks and Roman shared a similar culture and in fact adopted most of it. It was mostly about expand Roman territory and a soft rule over them.
And the Roman Empire did not conquer the Greek Empire. At the time Rome was a Republic, the Empire status does not occur until around 27 BC. And the Greeks never had an Empire….The City States were their own entities and had their own interests and initiatives but still militarily they could combine forces.
2. Alexander the Great did not build Greece into an Empire….no Empire…if you want to call it a dynasty….it is a family thing with more than one family and more than one territory. They had common interests, a common culture, but no central command.
3. The conquering of Egypt was another soft conquer. Alexandra became the location of Greek schools and it was the home of the Great Library of Alexandra, and one of the wonders of the ancient world, the Great lighthouse of Alexandra of which Archimedes designed.
4. Greeks and Romans shared a similar, even common culture.
These are some of the things that you have to keep in mind as you read here or go to look it up for yourself. You are going to see Greeks from different territories involved with Israel and Romans from the Roman Republic involved with Israel….and then the Roman Empire after 27 BC.
The relationship between the Jews and the Greeks…..it is the whole Hellenistic thing. A lot of the Jews liked the Persian culture and here a lot of the Jews liked the Greek culture and adapted to their culture which is called Hellenized. Hellenized does not mean Hell ….Hellen means Greek. And Hellenistic applies to both the Greeks and Romans. A lot of Jews became Greek…so there is a term called Greek Jews.
And a lot of the conservative Jews hated this and feared this. They were afraid the Jews would become Pagans and the Jewish religion would disappear. In the 2nd century most Jews could not read or speak Hebrew…which means they could not read their own scriptures. This is one of the reasons the Greeks organized the writing of the Septuagint….initially for the Alexandrian Library. And probably one of the reasons the New Testament was written mostly in Greek.
The conservative Jews hated being ruled over by anybody, even if they were being treated fairly. Which was kind of a catch 22 because as we will see the Jews were not that good at self-rule.
So anyway the conservative Jews started to make trouble and sew discord and they were apparently successful. So much trouble that the Seleucid Greek King Antiochus took control of Jerusalem and had a pig sacrificed on the Temple altar and set up a statue of Zeus in the Temple in 168 BC, effectively shutting the Temple down. Then a Greek army setup the occupation of Jerusalem.
At which point the Jews started planning a violent response. The main phase of the Jewish response to all this lasted from 167–160 BC, and is called the Maccabean Revolt. The Jews organized as a small army and was lead by Judah Maccabee, hence the name Maccabean Revolt. The account of which is chronicled later in the books of 1 and 2 Maccabees.
The rebellion started as a guerrilla movement in the Judean countryside, raiding towns and terrorizing the Greek officials and upper class. But the Jews eventually developed a larger more organized army capable of attacking the fortified Greek Seleucid Cities States. The Jews learned from the Greeks that it was not just about battle, it was about the fear and shock factor….making grouse displays of agony of those that lost the battle and a unrelenting intent to win no matter what the cost. Impaling someone without hitting vital organs was a skill and a common practice…fields full of impaled, dead and dying Greek soldiers and civilians.
In 164 BC, the Maccabees captured Jerusalem, a significant early victory. The cleansed the temple and rededicate the altar on 25 Kislev which is the source of the Festival of Hanukkah.
Judah Maccabee was killed in 160 BC at the Battle of Elasa against the Greek General Bacchides, and afterwards the Greek Seleucids reestablished direct control over Jerusalem, but remnants of the Maccabees under Judas's brother Jonathan Apphus’ continued war from the countryside. And in 141 BC the Jewish military commander Simon Thassi succeeded in expelling the Greeks from their citadel in Jerusalem and running them out of Jerusalem.
So why were the Greeks and then Romans so interested in Jerusalem? There nothing beneficial in the Jerusalem area for them ….it really did not produce anything that they needed. No special skills, no precious metals, no products or produce. The one things that the Jerusalem area did have was trade routes, one of which was the famed “spice route” which included a nearby seaport for commerce, so the peaceful movement of trade through that area was of vital importance. (Note to the reader: In this era spices were a commodity similar to silver and because they usually could not be made by most people, something as simple as pots and pans and kettles were of value to.)
Eventually, internal division among the Greeks and problems elsewhere on other fronts in their territories as well as the horrendous losses of the upper classes that left whole families impaled in their own front yards had an impact. The Greeks decided to remove the ban on Judaism, but for the Maccabees, that was not enough…. they saw being ruled over as a curse….a punishment from God, so they wanted to make things right with God and shed themselves of Paganism and wanted to reestablish the Israelite nation….self rule.
The Greeks had had enough, so the they agreed to letting the Jews establish self rule in the area and the Hasmonean Kingdom was allowed to form. This was all allowed on the terms that the Jews would keep the peace….the area calm and the trade routes unmolested. This requirement and concern for keeping the peace will be seen as the history unfolds.
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Grailhunter
Member
The Hasmonean Kingdom
The leadership of the Hasmoneans was established by a resolution document adopted in 141-142 BC, at a large assembly of the priests and the people and of the elders of the land. A Jewish military leader named Simon was voted in to be their leader and high priest. Simon was one those that made the Jewish people’s independent of the Seleucid Greeks possible, and he reigned from 142 to 135 BC and he organized the Hasmonean dynasty.
Simon led the people in peace and prosperity, until in February 135 BC, when he was assassinated in a coup organized by his son-in-law Ptolemy, son of Abubus, who had been named governor of the region by the Seleucids. Simon's eldest sons, Mattathias and Judah, were also murdered in this coup. So effectively this is a Greek coup attempting to sabotage Jewish rule. Ptolemy’s efforts made him infamous and a place in Dante Alighieri’s The Divine Comedy which described Hell and the punishment of the people there
Character introduction
Flavius Josephus (37-100) Jewish military leader turned historic chronicler and researcher. A lot of the history of this period comes from this man. His own writings survive in The Jewish War (c. 75) and Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94). Books about Josephus can be found online.
It is difficult to state at what time the Pharisees, as a “political religious” party arose. Josephus first mentions them in connection with Jonathan, the successor of Judah Maccabee. One of the factors that distinguished the Pharisees from other groups prior to the destruction of the Temple in 586 BC was their belief that all Jews had to observe the purity laws, which applied to the Temple should be observed outside the Temple. As a “historical chronicler” Josephus noted, the Pharisees were considered experts in interpreting the Mosaic Law. But the Pharisees were not of the Levite tribe so it is amazing, because without a media to broadcast propaganda they fooled people into thinking that they could and had the authority to interpret the Law and knew what was right.
During the Hasmonean period, the Sadducees and Pharisees functioned primarily as opposing political parties. The Sadducees supported King Alexander Jannaus’ efforts for expansion and the Pharisees did not. But the political rift between the two sects became wider when Pharisees demanded that the Hasmonean king Alexander Jannaeus had to choose between being king or being a High Priest. In response, the king openly sided with the Sadducees, removed them from their administrative duties in the Temple and gave this position and authority to selected Sadducees. This was like a slap in the face for the Pharisees.
Relations between King Alexander and the Pharisees deteriorated to a violent level and Pharisees publicly ridiculed the King and incited riots of which threatened to draw the attention of the Greeks. The King’s General Diogeenes of Judea who hated the Pharisees, convinced the King to take drastic action and the King had 800 of the Pharisees crucified. His actions caused a riot and a brief internal civil war that ended with a bloody repression of the Pharisees by the Jewish military. The King supposedly recanted on his deathbed calling for a reconciliation between the two parties. The situation for the Pharisees dramatically changed for the better when King Alexander proclaimed his wife Salome Queen and sole ruler of Israel.
The Queen of Israel
Josephus attests that the Jewish Queen Salome Alexandra was very favorably inclined toward the Pharisees and that their political influence grew tremendously under her reign, and she reinstated them as priests and administrators of the Sanhedrin. Later texts like the Mishnah and the Talmud record a host of rulings ascribed to the Pharisees concerning sacrifices and other ritual practices in the Temple, criminal law, and governance. The influence of the Pharisees over the lives of the common people greatly increased and their rulings on Jewish law were deemed authoritative.
Queen Salome Alexandra (139-67),
(Hebrew שלומציון Shelomtzion or ShlomTzion meaning “peace to Zion”) was the only Jewish Queen of Israel. Her husband’s mother held the title of Queen but it was only honorary holding no power at the request of King Alexander’s father. Queen Salome’s reign 76-67 BC
Under Queen Salome’s rule Israel was a fully independent Jewish state, the last time this occurred until the formation of the modern State of Israel, and she was a member of the Hasmonean Dynasty. Salome Alexandra is the historical person that made the name Salome popular in the first century.
Queen Salome succeeded for a time in quieting the vexatious internal dissensions of the kingdom that existed at the time of Alexander's death; and she did this peacefully and without political purging.
Salome installed her son Hyrcanus II as high priest a man who was devoted to the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin.
But once the Pharisees gained power they were out for vengeance, and they turned on the Sadducees and had General Diognes assassinated. Because the Pharisees had taken to employing assassins the Sadducees were moved to petition the Queen for protection against the ruling party of Pharisees. Salome, who desired to avoid all party conflicts, more or less separated the two parties….removing the Sadducees from Jerusalem and assigning them to certain fortified towns. Fortified? This meant military protection from the Pharisees.
Queen Salome increased the size of her army and carefully manned numerous fortified sites so that neighboring monarchs understood the strength of the Israeli army. She had put her son Aristobulus in charge of her army about the time the relations between Israel and Damascus deteriorated and she found out why. Roman General Pompey and a Roman garrison was there and he was trying to set up a military staging area. (Pompey in English, Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus in the Greek)
So she sent her son to take Damascus but he was defeated which caused her some embarrassment, but it sent notice to Rome that she was paying attention. And she was right that the Roman Republic had a growing interest in Jerusalem.
The Queen in legend
Rabbinical legend still further magnifies the prosperity which Judea enjoyed under Queen Salome. The Jewish Haggadah prayer relates that during her rule, as a reward for her piety, rain fell only on Sabbath (Friday) nights; so that the working class suffered no loss of pay through the rain falling during their work-time. The fertility of the soil was so great that the grains of wheat grew as large as kidney-beans; oats as large as olives; and lentils as large as gold denarii. The sages collected specimens of these grains and preserved them to show future generations the reward of obedience to the Law.
While the reign of Queen Alexandra Salome was one of great political wisdom and religious observance which earned her the respect of not only the Pharisees and the Sadducees, but also the people of Israel and their allies. But she did not train her sons to be leaders because in this era, if you did they would likely kill you and take your throne. Near her death, she confirmed the position of high priest to John Hyrcanus II and placed Aristobulus II in the position of king. The two brothers would probably have functioned well together, and the Jewish kingdom would have enjoyed peace and prosperity if where not for Antipater “the conniver” He saw the Queen’s death as a opportunity to sew discord within the ruling dynasty and gain wealth and power.
The leadership of the Hasmoneans was established by a resolution document adopted in 141-142 BC, at a large assembly of the priests and the people and of the elders of the land. A Jewish military leader named Simon was voted in to be their leader and high priest. Simon was one those that made the Jewish people’s independent of the Seleucid Greeks possible, and he reigned from 142 to 135 BC and he organized the Hasmonean dynasty.
Simon led the people in peace and prosperity, until in February 135 BC, when he was assassinated in a coup organized by his son-in-law Ptolemy, son of Abubus, who had been named governor of the region by the Seleucids. Simon's eldest sons, Mattathias and Judah, were also murdered in this coup. So effectively this is a Greek coup attempting to sabotage Jewish rule. Ptolemy’s efforts made him infamous and a place in Dante Alighieri’s The Divine Comedy which described Hell and the punishment of the people there
Character introduction
Flavius Josephus (37-100) Jewish military leader turned historic chronicler and researcher. A lot of the history of this period comes from this man. His own writings survive in The Jewish War (c. 75) and Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94). Books about Josephus can be found online.
It is difficult to state at what time the Pharisees, as a “political religious” party arose. Josephus first mentions them in connection with Jonathan, the successor of Judah Maccabee. One of the factors that distinguished the Pharisees from other groups prior to the destruction of the Temple in 586 BC was their belief that all Jews had to observe the purity laws, which applied to the Temple should be observed outside the Temple. As a “historical chronicler” Josephus noted, the Pharisees were considered experts in interpreting the Mosaic Law. But the Pharisees were not of the Levite tribe so it is amazing, because without a media to broadcast propaganda they fooled people into thinking that they could and had the authority to interpret the Law and knew what was right.
During the Hasmonean period, the Sadducees and Pharisees functioned primarily as opposing political parties. The Sadducees supported King Alexander Jannaus’ efforts for expansion and the Pharisees did not. But the political rift between the two sects became wider when Pharisees demanded that the Hasmonean king Alexander Jannaeus had to choose between being king or being a High Priest. In response, the king openly sided with the Sadducees, removed them from their administrative duties in the Temple and gave this position and authority to selected Sadducees. This was like a slap in the face for the Pharisees.
Relations between King Alexander and the Pharisees deteriorated to a violent level and Pharisees publicly ridiculed the King and incited riots of which threatened to draw the attention of the Greeks. The King’s General Diogeenes of Judea who hated the Pharisees, convinced the King to take drastic action and the King had 800 of the Pharisees crucified. His actions caused a riot and a brief internal civil war that ended with a bloody repression of the Pharisees by the Jewish military. The King supposedly recanted on his deathbed calling for a reconciliation between the two parties. The situation for the Pharisees dramatically changed for the better when King Alexander proclaimed his wife Salome Queen and sole ruler of Israel.
The Queen of Israel
Josephus attests that the Jewish Queen Salome Alexandra was very favorably inclined toward the Pharisees and that their political influence grew tremendously under her reign, and she reinstated them as priests and administrators of the Sanhedrin. Later texts like the Mishnah and the Talmud record a host of rulings ascribed to the Pharisees concerning sacrifices and other ritual practices in the Temple, criminal law, and governance. The influence of the Pharisees over the lives of the common people greatly increased and their rulings on Jewish law were deemed authoritative.
Queen Salome Alexandra (139-67),
(Hebrew שלומציון Shelomtzion or ShlomTzion meaning “peace to Zion”) was the only Jewish Queen of Israel. Her husband’s mother held the title of Queen but it was only honorary holding no power at the request of King Alexander’s father. Queen Salome’s reign 76-67 BC
Under Queen Salome’s rule Israel was a fully independent Jewish state, the last time this occurred until the formation of the modern State of Israel, and she was a member of the Hasmonean Dynasty. Salome Alexandra is the historical person that made the name Salome popular in the first century.
Queen Salome succeeded for a time in quieting the vexatious internal dissensions of the kingdom that existed at the time of Alexander's death; and she did this peacefully and without political purging.
Salome installed her son Hyrcanus II as high priest a man who was devoted to the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin.
But once the Pharisees gained power they were out for vengeance, and they turned on the Sadducees and had General Diognes assassinated. Because the Pharisees had taken to employing assassins the Sadducees were moved to petition the Queen for protection against the ruling party of Pharisees. Salome, who desired to avoid all party conflicts, more or less separated the two parties….removing the Sadducees from Jerusalem and assigning them to certain fortified towns. Fortified? This meant military protection from the Pharisees.
Queen Salome increased the size of her army and carefully manned numerous fortified sites so that neighboring monarchs understood the strength of the Israeli army. She had put her son Aristobulus in charge of her army about the time the relations between Israel and Damascus deteriorated and she found out why. Roman General Pompey and a Roman garrison was there and he was trying to set up a military staging area. (Pompey in English, Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus in the Greek)
So she sent her son to take Damascus but he was defeated which caused her some embarrassment, but it sent notice to Rome that she was paying attention. And she was right that the Roman Republic had a growing interest in Jerusalem.
The Queen in legend
Rabbinical legend still further magnifies the prosperity which Judea enjoyed under Queen Salome. The Jewish Haggadah prayer relates that during her rule, as a reward for her piety, rain fell only on Sabbath (Friday) nights; so that the working class suffered no loss of pay through the rain falling during their work-time. The fertility of the soil was so great that the grains of wheat grew as large as kidney-beans; oats as large as olives; and lentils as large as gold denarii. The sages collected specimens of these grains and preserved them to show future generations the reward of obedience to the Law.
While the reign of Queen Alexandra Salome was one of great political wisdom and religious observance which earned her the respect of not only the Pharisees and the Sadducees, but also the people of Israel and their allies. But she did not train her sons to be leaders because in this era, if you did they would likely kill you and take your throne. Near her death, she confirmed the position of high priest to John Hyrcanus II and placed Aristobulus II in the position of king. The two brothers would probably have functioned well together, and the Jewish kingdom would have enjoyed peace and prosperity if where not for Antipater “the conniver” He saw the Queen’s death as a opportunity to sew discord within the ruling dynasty and gain wealth and power.
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Grailhunter
Member
Antipater, the father of Herod the Great, took the opportunity to cause chaos and discord so as to attain for himself power and wealth. Antipater was the son of a powerful governor of Idumea who connived his way into positions to gain power and wealth after the Maccabean Revolt. During the time of prosperity and peace, the governor and his son taxed caravans that passed through their territory, especially along the famed spice route that was between the Dead Sea and the modern Israeli city of Eilat. Antipater instructed his son Herod how to manipulate the political affairs of the Romans and Greeks and Parthians
Concerning the Hasmonean brothers Antipater played the brothers against each other. Antipater played both ends circulating rumors to Aristobulus and Hyrcanus indicating that each was plotting against the other. Soon Aristobulus revolted against his older brother and announced that he was both high priest and king of Judah. At which point a Civil War broke out but neither felt strong enough to win a victory. So Aristobulus, with the support of the Sanhedrin, went east and attempted to secure military strength from the expanding Parthian Empire, while John Hyrcanus went west and secured the same from the Romans. Soon Israel would become the central focus of three competing world powers, the Romans and Greeks and Parthians. Jewish Civil war 67-63 BC. As a whole this era looks like everybody fighting everybody plus in fighting and family feuds….Chaos.
(Note to the reader….the dates of the start and end of the Roman Empire can be confusing. Technically historians agree that Rome as an empire did no occur until 31 BC. But there is more to it than that, more accurately it was an evolving and growing entity, that its main strength came from its growing organization with a central power structure. So from the 300’s it was the Greeks then Greco-Roman and then the Roman Republic and then Roman Empire. So during this time period the Greeks and the Romans were both powerful with the edge given to the Romans, but then again, most everything that Rome was came from the Greeks, including the people. Did Rome conquer the Greeks? There were battles like the Pyrrhic War (280–275 BC) and the Battle of Corinth in 146 B.C but mostly it was a matter of absorption. Rome had no interest in destroying the Greeks. Greek and Roman involvement with Israel overlapped while at the same time having deputes with each other.)
So anyway because the Civil War disrupted the trade routes, Rome decided to intervene and make a full scale effort to end the Civil War by taking possession of Jerusalem and surround area as well as securing the trade routes. Rome sent Roman Generals Marcus Aemilus Scaurus and Pompey to take charge.
In 63 BC Jerusalem was sieged for 3 months and it was a full scale siege….with siege towers, catapults, and ram machines. The Roman method of siege was a horrible thing. Captured Jews, men, women, and children were raped, tortured and crucified in full view of those inside the walls. Reports vary but supposedly there were two thousand crucifixes that circled the city of Jerusalem with no telling how many times they were reused. The specifics of all this is way to gruesome to explain, just know that it is more horrific than most could imagine. And the type of people that could do this had to be demonically insane by our standards. The demonic insane vs Israel….as it is today.
From around 63 BC until 37 BC Jerusalem and the surrounding area was under military occupation by the Greeks and the Romans. Afterwards in 37 BC the Romans placed Herod as a puppet king of Jerusalum. King Herod---Herod the Great 72- 4 BC Reined 37-4 BC.
In 41 BC the Roman leader Mark Antony (Most pronounce it Mark Anthony) named Herod and his brother Phasael as tetrarchs.
They were placed in this role to support John Hyrcanus II. In 40 BC Antigonus--- John Hyrcanus' nephew, took the Judean throne from his uncle with the help of the Parthians. (The Parthian Empire also known as the Arsacid Empire was a major Iranian political and cultural power in ancient Iran from 247 BC to 224 AD.)
Eventually, Herod married the granddaughter of Hyrcanus II, Mariamne to gain favor of the political arena and Rome. Herod did this in an attempt to gain power and Jewish favor. However, Herod already had a wife, Doris, and a young son, named after Antipater, and chose therefore to banish Doris and her child.
Herod went to Rome to ask the Romans to restore Hyrcanus II to power. In Rome, Herod was unexpectedly appointed an actual King of Judea. Herod went back to Judea to win public opinion from Antigonus, which never happened. But his kingship did solve Herod’s problem. In 37 BC now King Herod handed Antigonus over to the Romans for execution and put Hyrcanus II in his place.
Keeping the Antipaters straight….
[Antipater (400 to 319 BC) was a Macedonian general and statesman under the successive kingships of Philip II of Macedon and his son, Alexander the Great.
Antipater I the Idumaean (114 to 43 BC ) was the father of Herod the Great.
Antipater….Herod the Great's first-born son, his only child by his first wife Doris. He was named after his paternal grandfather Antipater the Idumaean. He and his mother were exiled after Herod divorced her between 43 BC and 40 BC? to marry Mariamne I who he later murdered.]
King Herod? With Roman backing he was the sole ruler of Judea, ushering in the Herodian Dynasty and removing the reminisce of the Hasmonean Dynasty power structure, but did not kill all the family members. Then he cleaned house and executed several members of the “royal court” and members of his own family, including his wife Mariamne I.
At this time (27 BC) Rome was a full Empire and had taken over the Greek City States and territories.
The first years of Herod's reign were troubled by hostility between the two Jewish sects, the Sadducees and Pharisees. Contention still existed with the surviving members of the Hasmonaean house, who had secured a friend with Cleopatra, Queen of Egypt. In which they were hoping to remove Roman support from King Herod. But this effort failed when Cleopatra and Mark Antony where defeated in September of 31 AD at the hands of Caesar Augustus and they committed suicide. Learning a lesson from this King Herod doubled his efforts to suppress his political enemies but it did him little good because his enemies grew like weeds.
King Herod the Great!?? (LOL How do historians come up with titles like this? LOL) Herod was a mentally deranged homicidal idot! But he did have his builders plan and build some great architecture. Magnificent architecture…in Jerusalem, Jericho, and Caesarea and the seaports which included several amphitheaters and the expansion of the Temple area to a complex taking input from the Jewish leadership.
To protect the Judean frontier against incursions, he had a chain of fortresses refurbished, which were later to prove of great value to the Jews in their insurrection against Rome. The final years of Herod's reign were embittered by the ceaseless and complicated political intrigues within his royal court and family.
Concerning the Hasmonean brothers Antipater played the brothers against each other. Antipater played both ends circulating rumors to Aristobulus and Hyrcanus indicating that each was plotting against the other. Soon Aristobulus revolted against his older brother and announced that he was both high priest and king of Judah. At which point a Civil War broke out but neither felt strong enough to win a victory. So Aristobulus, with the support of the Sanhedrin, went east and attempted to secure military strength from the expanding Parthian Empire, while John Hyrcanus went west and secured the same from the Romans. Soon Israel would become the central focus of three competing world powers, the Romans and Greeks and Parthians. Jewish Civil war 67-63 BC. As a whole this era looks like everybody fighting everybody plus in fighting and family feuds….Chaos.
(Note to the reader….the dates of the start and end of the Roman Empire can be confusing. Technically historians agree that Rome as an empire did no occur until 31 BC. But there is more to it than that, more accurately it was an evolving and growing entity, that its main strength came from its growing organization with a central power structure. So from the 300’s it was the Greeks then Greco-Roman and then the Roman Republic and then Roman Empire. So during this time period the Greeks and the Romans were both powerful with the edge given to the Romans, but then again, most everything that Rome was came from the Greeks, including the people. Did Rome conquer the Greeks? There were battles like the Pyrrhic War (280–275 BC) and the Battle of Corinth in 146 B.C but mostly it was a matter of absorption. Rome had no interest in destroying the Greeks. Greek and Roman involvement with Israel overlapped while at the same time having deputes with each other.)
So anyway because the Civil War disrupted the trade routes, Rome decided to intervene and make a full scale effort to end the Civil War by taking possession of Jerusalem and surround area as well as securing the trade routes. Rome sent Roman Generals Marcus Aemilus Scaurus and Pompey to take charge.
In 63 BC Jerusalem was sieged for 3 months and it was a full scale siege….with siege towers, catapults, and ram machines. The Roman method of siege was a horrible thing. Captured Jews, men, women, and children were raped, tortured and crucified in full view of those inside the walls. Reports vary but supposedly there were two thousand crucifixes that circled the city of Jerusalem with no telling how many times they were reused. The specifics of all this is way to gruesome to explain, just know that it is more horrific than most could imagine. And the type of people that could do this had to be demonically insane by our standards. The demonic insane vs Israel….as it is today.
From around 63 BC until 37 BC Jerusalem and the surrounding area was under military occupation by the Greeks and the Romans. Afterwards in 37 BC the Romans placed Herod as a puppet king of Jerusalum. King Herod---Herod the Great 72- 4 BC Reined 37-4 BC.
In 41 BC the Roman leader Mark Antony (Most pronounce it Mark Anthony) named Herod and his brother Phasael as tetrarchs.
They were placed in this role to support John Hyrcanus II. In 40 BC Antigonus--- John Hyrcanus' nephew, took the Judean throne from his uncle with the help of the Parthians. (The Parthian Empire also known as the Arsacid Empire was a major Iranian political and cultural power in ancient Iran from 247 BC to 224 AD.)
Eventually, Herod married the granddaughter of Hyrcanus II, Mariamne to gain favor of the political arena and Rome. Herod did this in an attempt to gain power and Jewish favor. However, Herod already had a wife, Doris, and a young son, named after Antipater, and chose therefore to banish Doris and her child.
Herod went to Rome to ask the Romans to restore Hyrcanus II to power. In Rome, Herod was unexpectedly appointed an actual King of Judea. Herod went back to Judea to win public opinion from Antigonus, which never happened. But his kingship did solve Herod’s problem. In 37 BC now King Herod handed Antigonus over to the Romans for execution and put Hyrcanus II in his place.
Keeping the Antipaters straight….
[Antipater (400 to 319 BC) was a Macedonian general and statesman under the successive kingships of Philip II of Macedon and his son, Alexander the Great.
Antipater I the Idumaean (114 to 43 BC ) was the father of Herod the Great.
Antipater….Herod the Great's first-born son, his only child by his first wife Doris. He was named after his paternal grandfather Antipater the Idumaean. He and his mother were exiled after Herod divorced her between 43 BC and 40 BC? to marry Mariamne I who he later murdered.]
King Herod? With Roman backing he was the sole ruler of Judea, ushering in the Herodian Dynasty and removing the reminisce of the Hasmonean Dynasty power structure, but did not kill all the family members. Then he cleaned house and executed several members of the “royal court” and members of his own family, including his wife Mariamne I.
At this time (27 BC) Rome was a full Empire and had taken over the Greek City States and territories.
The first years of Herod's reign were troubled by hostility between the two Jewish sects, the Sadducees and Pharisees. Contention still existed with the surviving members of the Hasmonaean house, who had secured a friend with Cleopatra, Queen of Egypt. In which they were hoping to remove Roman support from King Herod. But this effort failed when Cleopatra and Mark Antony where defeated in September of 31 AD at the hands of Caesar Augustus and they committed suicide. Learning a lesson from this King Herod doubled his efforts to suppress his political enemies but it did him little good because his enemies grew like weeds.
King Herod the Great!?? (LOL How do historians come up with titles like this? LOL) Herod was a mentally deranged homicidal idot! But he did have his builders plan and build some great architecture. Magnificent architecture…in Jerusalem, Jericho, and Caesarea and the seaports which included several amphitheaters and the expansion of the Temple area to a complex taking input from the Jewish leadership.
To protect the Judean frontier against incursions, he had a chain of fortresses refurbished, which were later to prove of great value to the Jews in their insurrection against Rome. The final years of Herod's reign were embittered by the ceaseless and complicated political intrigues within his royal court and family.
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