Bible Study Great Secrets And Revelation Of The Cross.

[Soul man]

Most of Pauls writing are from the "in Christ" perspective.
The way Paul reasons with the Jews in Romans is he knew the law.
Probably better than most, so from the in Christ perspective he told them there was a new and better way.
Paul tells them the promises of father Abraham came by faith. The promises were made before the law came.
They thought the only way to have a relationship with God was through the law, Romans 4, takes a good look at this.
Paul had his work cut out for him, what I see is he was perfectly up for the task.
A deeper look shows even the faith of Abraham could not rid him of the sin-nature.
Only through death could there be any exchange, Romans 7:1-6,
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

 

[billybalke]

Most of Pauls writing are from the "in Christ" perspective.
The way Paul reasons with the Jews in Romans is he knew the law.
Probably better than most, so from the in Christ perspective he told them there was a new and better way.
Paul tells them the promises of father Abraham came by faith. The promises were made before the law came.
They thought the only way to have a relationship with God was through the law, Romans 4, takes a good look at this.
Paul had his work cut out for him, what I see is he was perfectly up for the task.
A deeper look shows even the faith of Abraham could not rid him of the sin-nature.
Only through death could there be any exchange, Romans 7:1-6,
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Are you assuming we are born with a sin nature?

 

[Chopper]

This is my next segment....

2Corinthians 4:10 "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
4:11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh." (KJV)

2Corinthians 4:10 "always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.
4:11 For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh." (ESV)

The suffering of the cross, the suffering of Calvary, you and I need to enter into a fellowship with Christ in his sufferings....Death requires to be wrought in us in a real death fellowship. A strange fellowship right? We think of fellowship as a happy thing, not a suffering thing....Again, Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

I wonder how many folk who "go forward" in, lets say, in a Billy Graham Crusade, would they still go forward if they knew that Salvation includes a cross of suffering of their own?

To go along with Luke 9:23, I feel the following verse has merit.

2Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."....

A new creature or as the ESV says, "creation". 4:11 says "always delivered unto death (Old things)....that the life (New things) of Jesus might be made manifest (would appear). In order for my new creation (nature) or new man to appear, my old creation (nature) must pass away thru the death of the cross.

My next segment will be on....Calvary and Pentecost are inseparable. Calvary always sends a man on to Pentecost; Pentecost is always sending a man back to Calvary....You never can know the power of Pentecost unless the power of the cross is working in you!!

 

[Soul man]

Are you assuming we are born with a sin nature?

Correct, that is my understanding.

 

[billybalke]

Correct, that is my understanding.

My understanding is that one is born into this world with an innocent spirit.

 

[Soul man]

My understanding is that one is born into this world with an innocent spirit.

Completely understand, it's an on going debate.

 

[Soul man]

The suffering of the cross, the suffering of Calvary, you and I need to enter into a fellowship with Christ in his sufferings....Death requires to be wrought in us in a real death fellowship. A strange fellowship right? We think of fellowship as a happy thing, not a suffering thing....Again, Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Romans 8:18, For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

I came to a place in my walk years ago, I knew there was something about suffering I didn't understand.
Believers go through more sometimes than a full blown sinner.
I didn't feel it was my Father that was causing my suffering, regardless it was there. I searched the word looking for the hope that shreds light on circumstances and situations.
Asking the HolySpirit to reveal to me what was going on. If we were to suffer, severely at times, I wanted to know why. I cant tell you if it was the HolySpirit, my search or answered prayer.
I don't hear God like some do, it usually comes a little here and a little there.
I began to understand it in a way that I had never looked for.
I realized everything in life is a build up to getting you exactly where the lord wants you.
I could see where nothing was ever out of His control.
It was like I could see suffering built into creation, and how the Father used it, to our glory.
Paul gloried in his affections, he had suffered awful travesties.
I have to say I don't know if I'm there yet, Paul was just a man. Yea he had revelations but he was still human. He had to learn, he was not superhuman.
God is no respector of any man's person, we will be conformed to the image of His dear Son.
He use's suffering, He uses blessing, He will use all things to conform us. You can not discount anything you have ever been through, good or bad.
I listen too those that say I failed God, I missed it, God can't use me, how sadly their mistaken.

 

[Chopper]

Romans 8:18, For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

I came to a place in my walk years ago, I knew there was something about suffering I didn't understand.
Believers go through more sometimes than a full blown sinner.
I didn't feel it was my Father that was causing my suffering, regardless it was there. I searched the word looking for the hope that shreds light on circumstances and situations.
Asking the HolySpirit to reveal to me what was going on. If we were to suffer, severely at times, I wanted to know why. I cant tell you if it was the HolySpirit, my search or answered prayer.
I don't hear God like some do, it usually comes a little here and a little there.
I began to understand it in a way that I had never looked for.
I realized everything in life is a build up to getting you exactly where the lord wants you.
I could see where nothing was ever out of His control.
It was like I could see suffering built into creation, and how the Father used it, to our glory.
Paul gloried in his affections, he had suffered awful travesties.
I have to say I don't know if I'm there yet, Paul was just a man. Yea he had revelations but he was still human. He had to learn, he was not superhuman.
God is no respector of any man's person, we will be conformed to the image of His dear Son.
He use's suffering, He uses blessing, He will use all things to conform us. You can not discount anything you have ever been through, good or bad.
I listen too those that say I failed God, I missed it, God can't use me, how sadly their mistaken.

O yes my friend, I've seen that my suffering, over these many years, has crushed the enormous pride that was an enemy to my spiritual life.

 

[billybalke]

Completely understand, it's an on going debate.

Hi Soul Man. If your understanding of the sin nature of man is correct it radically changes the nature of your thread in my understanding. Inasmuch as this is not a debate thread would you be willing to discuss this on the one-on-one in a Christian manner? God bless.

 

[ezrider]

Are you assuming we are born with a sin nature?

Correct, that is my understanding.

My understanding is that one is born into this world with an innocent spirit.

There is a difference in having a sin nature, and being under the condemnation of sin.

Adam was created with a sin nature, we continue to have a sin nature. Jesus did not remove our sin nature on the cross. The sin nature remains in our flesh. You can not escape nor can you remove your sin nature while you remain in the flesh. The sin nature is in the dust. The dirt and clay we are formed from. The sin nature will remain with you until your body returns to the dust.

So when you say your understanding is we are born into this world with an innocent spirit, you are correct. We are born into this world with a sin nature, yet an innocent spirit, just as Adam was created. The Bible and the law is your tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The Bible provides your knowledge of sin and death. You remain an innocent spirit with a sin nature until you eat the fruit of the Bible and obtain the knowledge of good and evil. It is then your sin nature is activated, and you become conscious of it. Once you are conscious of it, then the devil tries to lay claim, and you begin fighting your sin nature. Paul describes it when he said I was alive without the Law, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. For SIN, taking occasion by the commandment, DECEIVED ME, and by it slew me (Rom 7:9-12).

Once you have tasted the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, you can not say I have not eaten, for your innocence is lost and it will bear on your conscience. But this is all part of the great mystery of the cross and the plan of God. For it is his will that the seed must first die, before it can bring forth new fruit. This is the power of the cross. To live and die, and live again. We born innocent, but with the sin nature that accompanies the dust of our flesh. We are not born under the law, we were not born with the knowledge of good and evil, nor were we born with the knowledge of sin. It is only after the serpent whispers out of the dust into your ear that you are a sinner, and you need to repent and accept Jesus or your going to go to burn in hell. So we accept this Jesus for fear of sin and condemnation, but have no knowledge of the sin. It is only after we read of hear the Bible and subject ourselves and accept for ourselves the laws and the commandments of God, that sin deceives us, and slays us, and keeps us in bondage unto death.

But that is the beauty and power of the cross, that we are crucified with Christ that we might be released from the bondage of sin, having become dead unto sin. But what does it mean to be dead unto sin? Because the sin nature remains in our flesh. How are you freed from the law by dying to it with Christ? Our two teachers leading this study still have yet to describe how they themselves reckon themselves dead with Christ.

There has been a lot of talk of dying to self. But how does one die to themselves? I can not die to myself. I can not strip the flesh from my bone. I am but a clay vessel in the potter's hand. Who am I to say why have you made me thus? Especially after I ate the fruit of knowledge, the Bible, for myself. But it is not the cross that saves me. It is my Faith in the sacrifice of Christ and the work of the cross that saves me, and allows me to remain dead to the law.

But I am not dead to the law if I am am trying to die to myself. I am not dead to the law if I think that Jesus died for me. I am only dead to the law if I allow myself to be crucified with Christ, but herein is another mystery of the cross. The power of the cross is not so that you might die unto yourself, but rather so that you might live unto God.

 

[ezrider]

Great secrets and revelation of the cross. Here is something else our instructors might want to consider. The Cross can become a stumbling block.

1 Cor 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


How is the cross a stumbling block to the Jews? Or maybe better said; How is the cross a stumbling block to those who subjected themselves to the obedience of the law?

Christ was the sacrifices for sin to those who were under the law, yet if you are crucified with Christ, you are not under the law. But this brings up another thought to ponder. There are those who come to the cross looking for the death of Christ and his sacrifice so they might be cleansed over and over, because they can not see beyond his death.

But what does the scripture say? You are Crucified with Christ, so that you might also Live with Christ. But if you are indeed crucified WITH Christ, what more does the cross serve you for a sacrifice from sin, if you have sacrificed yourself along with him.

If you have indeed been crucified with Christ, then how do you reckoned yourself dead with Christ?

Philippians 2:5-8
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

If you are crucified with Christ, then how do you remain obedient to death, even the death of your own cross?

 

[Soul man]

Hi Soul Man. If your understanding of the sin nature of man is correct it radically changes the nature of your thread in my understanding. Inasmuch as this is not a debate thread would you be willing to discuss this on the one-on-one in a Christian manner? God bless.

Yes I'll talk with you, pm me or we can do a thread.

 

[billybalke]

Yes I'll talk with you, pm me or we can do a thread.

On the one-on-one? If so we will need WIP to put us on. God bless.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Romans 8:18, For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

I came to a place in my walk years ago, I knew there was something about suffering I didn't understand.
Believers go through more sometimes than a full blown sinner.
I didn't feel it was my Father that was causing my suffering, regardless it was there. I searched the word looking for the hope that shreds light on circumstances and situations.
Asking the HolySpirit to reveal to me what was going on. If we were to suffer, severely at times, I wanted to know why. I cant tell you if it was the HolySpirit, my search or answered prayer.
I don't hear God like some do, it usually comes a little here and a little there.
I began to understand it in a way that I had never looked for.
I realized everything in life is a build up to getting you exactly where the lord wants you.
I could see where nothing was ever out of His control.
It was like I could see suffering built into creation, and how the Father used it, to our glory.
Paul gloried in his affections, he had suffered awful travesties.
I have to say I don't know if I'm there yet, Paul was just a man. Yea he had revelations but he was still human. He had to learn, he was not superhuman.
God is no respector of any man's person, we will be conformed to the image of His dear Son.
He use's suffering, He uses blessing, He will use all things to conform us. You can not discount anything you have ever been through, good or bad.
I listen too those that say I failed God, I missed it, God can't use me, how sadly their mistaken.

hello Soul man, dirtfarmer here

I like to think that the suffering that we go through as believers is not punishment for sin, Christ endured all that in my place on his cross. But, it is as a master diamond cutter chipping away all the impurities to make us a priceless gem, we will shine as diamonds in his presence.
2 Timothy 2:12, " If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he will also deny us.

Hebrews 12:8 " But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

 

[DavidC]

The kingdom for believers is within now, seeing Christ as all and in all (born again) is to focus on Him. Good thoughts, it's not all about us, nor is it all about Him.
When we talk about the cross and what God has done, it is all about Him.
Eph. chapter 1, is a good place to read about Gods will in the two becoming one.
Look at the the new creation for instance, it is the two have become one, by a birthing.
That is what the Father sees, the believers mind is still trying to figure out what God has done.
We still have a part in all this, our creation, in the image and likeness of God is how He expresses Himself.
It is Christ alive in you, you're uniqueness
coming through.
Christ does not come out of you as Jesus of Narazeth, He comes out of you as you. The only way He can come out of you is through your creation.
We are not to imitate Jesus, we are to be as He is.
What do I mean by this; from the womb you received that special touch of God.
Your personality, gifts, talents, and so on, the way you are perceived by others.
You are perfect the way God made you.
It is the nature that has distorted man, nothing wrong with their creation. Now in Christ we receive a new nature, learning about the natures is a real key to help you look at scripture.
It will begin to unlock the mind, understanding, you look at scripture from a different perspective, in Christ.

When you are speaking of learning about our new nature, are you referring to our possessions in Christ such as we are adopted children, seated in the heavenlies, participating in the divine nature, etc., or something else?

Thanks.

 

[Soul man]

I like to think that the suffering that we go through as believers is not punishment for sin, Christ endured all that in my place on his cross.

I agree, the suffering we endure is just there. I believe He uses it but absolutely do not believe He causes any of our suffering.
No more than I would bring any suffering on my children.
I may correct my children, but the deep suffering of this world I feel is brought about by the worlds fallen state.
God said it way back, pain in child birth, grinding out a living by the sweat of your brow.
My dilemma was when I looked at suffering, mine, others, as well as the world. I knew there had to be a purpose, other than just a fallen world.
What a waste to not get a any mileage out of such a dynamic force, excuse my crude analogy.
To be honest apart from my search of soul and spirit, it was my greatest hunger to understand.
Out of my search of soul and spirit, I came to see the birthing. I could see the birthing (being born again) was made possible by a death, the death of the oldman on the cross.
When I was first born again my search began a year or so into my new found love of Jesus. I was in a strict religious setting, never knew anything about a God, fresh off the streets of Southern California. Thank God I had a hunger and kept searching, there is something to be said about rebellion, it's not all bad.
I learned many good things, but somethings not so good.
I was hearing things that did not fit what I was reading, but they were the instructors. In my little understanding of the suffering, the beating Jesus took, there had to be more to the cross than what I was hearing. Anyway we can never think we have wasted time on this or that.
It truly is a build up of the Father to get His very own offspring.

 

[DavidC]

I agree, the suffering we endure is just there. I believe He uses it but absolutely do not believe He causes any of our suffering.
No more than I would bring any suffering on my children.
I may correct my children, but the deep suffering of this world I feel is brought about by the worlds fallen state.
God said it way back, pain in child birth, grinding out a living by the sweat of your brow.
My dilemma was when I looked at suffering, mine, others, as well as the world. I knew there had to be a purpose, other than just a fallen world.
What a waste to not get a any mileage out of such a dynamic force, excuse my crude analogy.
To be honest apart from my search of soul and spirit, it was my greatest hunger to understand.
Out of my search of soul and spirit, I came to see the birthing. I could see the birthing (being born again) was made possible by a death, the death of the oldman on the cross.
When I was first born again my search began a year or so into my new found love of Jesus. I was in a strict religious setting, never knew anything about a God, fresh off the streets of Southern California. Thank God I had a hunger and kept searching, there is something to be said about rebellion, it's not all bad.
I learned many good things, but somethings not so good.
I was hearing things that did not fit what I was reading, but they were the instructors. In my little understanding of the suffering, the beating Jesus took, there had to be more to the cross than what I was hearing. Anyway we can never think we have wasted time on this or that.
It truly is a build up of the Father to get His very own offspring.

James 1:2 Comsider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Allow perseverance to finish its work, so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
Doesn't suffering cause death to the old man?

 

[Soul man]

When you are speaking of learning about our new nature, are you referring to our possessions in Christ such as we are adopted children, seated in the heavenlies, participating in the divine nature, etc., or something else?

Thanks.

The nature of God is in Christ. We have a Christ in you nature, we need to learn Christ.
It is His life that comes out of the believer, we need to know something about that.
You have not learned Christ Paul said in one place.
The message of Christ as our life is not learned over night. The believer has to be dedicated to the understanding of that life. When we give ourselves to understand Christ, the HolySpirit will teach you. It doesn't come from man, it cant be taught by man, Gal. 1:11-12,
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[DavidC]

The nature of God is in Christ. We have a Christ in you nature, we need to learn Christ.
It is His life that comes out of the believer, we need to know something about that.
You have not learned Christ Paul said in one place.
The message of Christ as our life is not learned over night. The believer has to be dedicated to the understanding of that life. When we give ourselves to understand Christ, the HolySpirit will teach you. It doesn't come from man, it cant be taught by man, Gal. 1:11-12,
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

And would a good place to learn is what we have in Christ, like in Ephesians? Who we are in Christ?

 

[Soul man]

James 1:2 Comsider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Allow perseverance to finish its work, so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
Doesn't suffering cause death to the old man?

The cross in the only thing that takes the oldman out. Flesh, is mind given to body, as believers it is no longer the oldman, Romans 6:6,
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.