Great White Throne Judgment

[handy]

Who sits upon the Great White Throne


This came up in a discussion in a different thread, but since the question came up, I thought I'd create a thread here.

I have always believed it is Jesus who sits upon that throne. However, another member believes that it is the Father who does so.

Here is the text regarding the great white throne judgement:

Revelations 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. NASB

Here are some texts as to why I believe that the One who sits upon the throne is the Son, Jesus Christ:

John 5: 21"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Acts 17: 30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
2 Timothy 4: 1I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom..
All texts NASB

To me, these texts clearly show that it is Jesus who is going to be the Judge of both those who are alive in faith and those who are condemned in their sins.
A response to this was that only believers would stand before the judgment of Christ, all other would be judged by the Father but I find in Matthew 25

31"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
NASB

Given the weight of texts that speak of Jesus being the One on the throne, what support is there for the idea that it is the Father who sits in judgment of the world?

 

[Bick]

Greetings, Handy. I agree with you, that all judging is given to the Son. For He, as the Son of man, is the one to judge mankind.

Yes, I understand that "the rest of the dead" who are resurrected to be judged by Christ Jesus on His Great White, will include both those who are judged worthy of life (to come), and those who are not.

For as it is written in Revelation 20:11-15, which you quote, there will be those whose names are written in the Book of Life (who obviously be granted life on the New Earth to come), and those who are judged negatively to die the second death in the lake of fire.

As to the judgment scene described in Matthew 25:31-32, it is not the last judgment for much of humanity, for we read that it takes place "when the Son of man comes in his glory with all his holy angels, then he shall sit upon his glory throne" (paraphrased).

This has to be his second coming when the 7 yeard tribulation period is concluded, and Christ has destroyed his enemies and rescued his prople, Israel.

The nations gathered before him have to be those of the nations of the world who have survived the terrible plagues and judgments that have been poured out upon the earth during the last 3 and 1/2 years of the tribulation.

They are judged as to how they treated Christ's Jewish brethren during those terrible times.

Christ uses the figures of "sheep" and "goats" for the righteous and the unrighteous. The "sheep" will inheirit the kingdom on the earth, the Messianic Kingdom inaugurated by Christ which last a 1000 years.

And, IMO, the "goats" will die in the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[samuel]

Jesus, all judgement is commited to the Son, until all enemies are put under his feet, the last being Death.

 

[unclejed]

Hello, I am the other member handy spoke of. I am willing to rethink what I believe and if I am incorrect, it's o.k. as I have had to rethink many, many beliefs I have held. Upon doing a little research on this I found that most believe as handy does. I came across this read that asserts that same belief and I feel it is Worth reading.
http://ldolphin.org/Gwhite.html

 

[handy]

Very interesting article.

I have generally believed in one judgment, a one-time and final "Judgment Day". Upon reading the article, I'll rethink as well.

 

[unclejed]

Very interesting article.

I have generally believed in one judgment, a one-time and final "Judgment Day". Upon reading the article, I'll rethink as well.

Beautiful! We are both rethinking some of our beliefs, this shows we have a teachable spirit. That is what forums are all about. May the Lord of Hosts be praised forever! If I may send a blessing to all Gods' children here; May the Lord keep you in the palm of His hand, may He bless you and make His face to shine upon you, and may He show you kindness and mercy, and may He prosper you in the land...Amen

 

[seekandlisten]

Who sits upon the Great White Throne


This came up in a discussion in a different thread, but since the question came up, I thought I’d create a thread here.

I have always believed it is Jesus who sits upon that throne. However, another member believes that it is the Father who does so.

Here is the text regarding the great white throne judgement:

Revelations 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. NASB

this sounds like God sitting on the throne to me?



Here are some texts as to why I believe that the One who sits upon the throne is the Son, Jesus Christ:
[quote:2u9u4y1z]
John 5: 21"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Acts 17: 30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

to me this says that God will judge all men through Jesus because we are unworthy except through Jesus

2 Timothy 4: 1I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom..
All texts NASB

To me, these texts clearly show that it is Jesus who is going to be the Judge of both those who are alive in faith and those who are condemned in their sins.
A response to this was that only believers would stand before the judgment of Christ, all other would be judged by the Father but I find in Matthew 25

31"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
NASB

Given the weight of texts that speak of Jesus being the One on the throne, what support is there for the idea that it is the Father who sits in judgment of the world?[/quote:2u9u4y1z]

I believe it is God the Father who sits on the throne and judges all His creation. It is only through Jesus that we even have that chance at life and, in my words, is more or less pleading our case to the Father. just my 2 cents.

 

[handy]

Do you not believe that Jesus is God?

 

[seekandlisten]

Do you not believe that Jesus is God?

Well, as i'm am new to this forum i'm not sure where this is going go. I do realize from your question where this conversation is going to go and I am worried as to how this will be taken. I personally do not believe that Jesus is God. Jesus is God's Only Begotten Son and sits at God's right hand. I am sure you don't share this belief so i ask that you be courteous and respectful in your response and I will be as well in regards to your beliefs.


Moderators: I am new to this forum and do not yet know if I must believe in the Trinity doctrine to participate in this forum. If this is considered a requirement to be considered a Christian than I apologize and ask that you delete my posts and let me know.

 

[handy]

I'm no longer a moderator, but I do know that you do not have to believe that Jesus is God in order to participate in this forum. You can be an avowed athiest and participate in the forum, as long as you are respectful.

I asked the question more to understand your response than to "call you out" so to speak. Your answer certainly clairifies your response to me. Grant it enough to say that I disagree with the idea that Jesus is not God as well as the Son of God.

It most certainly is God on the throne. We can see that from Revelation.

What is your interpretation of Matthew 25:31-32

 

[seekandlisten]

I interpret that passage to be speaking of when Jesus will return to earth to take his spot on the throne Satan has occupied ending his reign and beginning Christ's 1,000 year reign. He will separate His true followers from the false believers and unbelievers as they will reign with Him over earth for this thousand years.

I understand that you believe Jesus to be God but are you saying that Jesus isn't the Son of God??

 

[handy]

I understand that you believe Jesus to be God but are you saying that Jesus isn't the Son of God??

I believe that Jesus is God the Son. That Jesus is indeed God, and is the Son as opposed to the Father or the Spirit. Straight Trinitarian, that's me. As it states in Hebrews 1:

Hebrews 1:8But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9"YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

10And,
"YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END."

When the writer states, of the Son He says, the "He" is God the Father, and it is clear here that God the Father refers to the Son as "God" and "Lord".

There are those who do believe in several judgments, but when I compare Revelations 20 with Matthew 25, I find that they are speaking of the same event.

 

[seekandlisten]

You had me confused with your one statement as to whether or not you believed Jesus to be the Son of God, but I see where you are coming from now.

There are those who do believe in several judgments, but when I compare Revelations 20 with Matthew 25, I find that they are speaking of the same event.

Am I correct in assuming that from this statement you don't believe in two resurrections?? That you believe when Jesus returns all will be judged and either go to heaven or hell?? Could you please explain this belief if this is what you mean to me? Also how would you interpret the following verses?

Luke 1:32-33

Revelations 3:21

Revelations 20:4-6

 

[handy]

I do believe in the two resurrections, the faithful arising first and being with Christ in the millennial reign, and the unbelievers resurrecting at the end of that reign.

I don't think there are two judgment days though. I believe that the two resurrections are separate events from the Great White Throne judgment, although it is at the Judgment where the faithful (sheep) and the unbelievers (goats) will be forever separated.

btw, I'm enjoying this conversation. :yes

 

[handy]

Oh, and to clarify that last point, I think that the Judgment and the resurrection of the unrighteous take place at the same time, but the resurrection of the faithful takes place before.

 

[seekandlisten]

Yes, I always enjoy discussing beliefs in a civil manner. It when those beliefs become believe this or burn in hell that I have an issue.

I can't say that I really disagree with you much on that point. I interpret it a little different but not entirely. I will point out here that while i agree that we should understand what is going to happen in the end times, I don't think every little detail has to be know or interpreted. I'm much more concerned with my life leading up to that point as we are supposed to make ourselves ready for when Jesus returns. I have my thoughts and what i believe to be true. Now when I say 'believe' here I am referring to that which I have read/studied/heard and and my perception of those things to be true.

In regards to the verses i referenced, this is what i make of them.



Luke 1:32-33 (New International Version)
32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

This to me refers to the Father giving the Son David's throne. To my knowledge David's throne is here on earth.

Revelation 3:21 (New International Version)
21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

This verse was more along the lines of my belief that Jesus is God's Son. And just as He overcame and sat with God, so we will be rewarded for our witness to Christ to rule with him during the 1000 years.

Revelation 20:4-6 (New International Version)

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

This is in regards to the first resurrection where the martyrs and saints will reign with him. My thoughts on the second resurrection when all people will be judged by God. First off, again this only from what I have read and understood I believe that the warning of adding or taking away from the prophecies should be warning enough that we have to be careful in regards to what we witness as truth about this vision. I believe all will know God by or at this judgement. It is then we will be judged on our witness of Christ our only way to God wherein lies life eternal

 

[seekandlisten]

Oh, and to clarify that last point, I think that the Judgment and the resurrection of the unrighteous take place at the same time, but the resurrection of the faithful takes place before.

In regards to this I would truly like to understand better but have not come across any logical explanation that explains it any better. My thoughts on this are, without diving into too much detail, Jesus returns to rule on earth for 1000 years with his saints who were His true believers. Will we actually see Jesus take his throne from a physical standpoint i can't say for sure, possibly. I am unsure if the world continues as it is with Jesus sitting on the throne instead of satan? And will peace come to the earth and Christ be revealed to the unbelievers without the deceit of satan during this time? I also think that those not a part of the first resurrection both unbeliever and believers who thought they were right will face great suffering at some point during these end times before the final judgment.

At the end of the 1000 year reign will be the day of Judgment where all will stand before God the Father and be judged accordingly. The exact specifics of this Judgement I don't know but I do believe that it will be ALL "souls" who will stand before God. It is at this time that satan and everything of him will be destroyed. It is then we will dwell with God on earth in it's perfect form as it was created in total harmony and love.

There is a lot of conspiracy and theories that come out of revelations and most often i tend to stay away from putting to much effort into understanding revelation. But like all Scripture and readings pertaining to God's Plan for mankind and our relationship with him I do from time to time do a little digging on certain aspects.

 

[handy]

Sorry I sort of bailed on this discussion. Just been very busy lately.

Yes, I always enjoy discussing beliefs in a civil manner. It when those beliefs become believe this or burn in hell that I have an issue.

I can't say that I really disagree with you much on that point. I interpret it a little different but not entirely. I will point out here that while i agree that we should understand what is going to happen in the end times, I don't think every little detail has to be know or interpreted. I'm much more concerned with my life leading up to that point as we are supposed to make ourselves ready for when Jesus returns. I have my thoughts and what i believe to be true. Now when I say 'believe' here I am referring to that which I have read/studied/heard and and my perception of those things to be true.

In regards to the verses i referenced, this is what i make of them.



Luke 1:32-33 (New International Version)
32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

This to me refers to the Father giving the Son David's throne. To my knowledge David's throne is here on earth.

This world is slated to end though. How can this be speaking only of an earthly throne, say that it will be forever and will never end, if this world will end?

Revelation 3:21 (New International Version)
21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

This verse was more along the lines of my belief that Jesus is God's Son. And just as He overcame and sat with God, so we will be rewarded for our witness to Christ to rule with him during the 1000 years.

Jesus is indeed God's Son. I believe that there is ample Scripture to show that He is also God the Son

Revelation 20:4-6 (New International Version)

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

This is in regards to the first resurrection where the martyrs and saints will reign with him. My thoughts on the second resurrection when all people will be judged by God. First off, again this only from what I have read and understood I believe that the warning of adding or taking away from the prophecies should be warning enough that we have to be careful in regards to what we witness as truth about this vision. I believe all will know God by or at this judgement. It is then we will be judged on our witness of Christ our only way to God wherein lies life eternal

I agree with you in regards that we need to be careful about what we witness as truth regarding these things. I've seen to many theological theories be passed off as incontrovertable truth and that isn't wise at all.