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Long story short, what are your thoughts on Luke 16:24. I think it means hell in the afterlife. KJV version, torment in this flame.
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Hades is Sheol
- Thread starter Doulos Iesou
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Long story short, what are your thoughts on Luke 16:24. I think it means hell in the afterlife. KJV version, torment in this flame.
Butch5
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- Jul 16, 2012
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I don't think Luke 16 has anything to do with the afterlife. I think it is a warning to the Jews of what is going to happen to them. Jesus said to them. Here is a similar passage from Jesus.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The KJV doesn't do a very good job with Hell, it translates three different words as Hell and they are three different places. It translates, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus, all as Hell. This is very confusing because the English reader see one place whereas the Greek reader saw three different places.
(Mat 8:9-12 KJV)
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But Luke 16 specifically says the begger and the rich man died, and the rich man buried. Yes, what is going to happen to them AFTER THEY DIE! Luke 16:22!!
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Why would you base the meaning of the parable on what the Rich Man says instead of what Abraham says? You are completely divorcing verse 30 from the immediate context and that is at least partly why you are wrong.
Please answer the questions I have asked. You yet again stated: "The rich man wanted his brothers to repent and not end up in hell!" If this is speaking of after judgement, as you have made so very clear, how in the world could the brothers have been warned? If they could yet end up in hell then very clearly this could not be after Judgement Day or they would already be in hell.
Doulos Iesou
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Ding! Ding! Ding! Knock out.. rounds over!
- Apr 2, 2003
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You would think so....
Butch5
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Yes, I believe it's an analogy. Look at Jesus's parables, look at the parable of the Talent, the master goes away and give his servants a certain amount of money.
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 25:14-30 KJV)
Here Jesus uses a story to tell them how the kingdom works. He isn't really giving them money. I believe Luke 16 is a story telling the Jewish leaders that they are going to be the ones who are cast out. The preceding chapters will give you context. However, take notice that Jesus is addressing the Pharisees. It doesn't make sense the Jesus would stop right in the middle of His discussion and teach about the afterlife and then go back to addressing the Pharisees. however, if the Luke 16 is a parable about the Jews it makes sense. Remember what Mark said,
33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. (Mar 4:32-34 KJV)
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It's very important not to ignore ANYTHING in this chapter. Why would you ignore what the rich man says, because he's clearly in hell. Luke 16:24. Luke 16:30-31 is referring to how cold and distance the hearts of the five brothers are, they already denied what Moses and the prophets were saying. It's clearly saying that the five brothers are rebellious and are not looking to repent!! Or maybe they do repent!! For example, Free could be one of the five brothers, will Free repent in the end? It's talking about the condition of their hearts!! Why don't you see that?
Listen guys, the definition of prophecy is the foretelling or prediction by a prophet with divinely inspired prediction of what is to come. OF WHAT IS TO COME! JESUS is the prophet that is speaking!! Do you understand that Jesus is talking in the parable and giving people names. For all we care the begger and the rich man could be Frank and Joe down at the coffee shop, but it isn't. The reason why it's the begger and the rich man is because Jesus is teaching a lesson between worshiping God or money.
It all comes down to what your beliefs are about heaven, hell and judgement. Luke 16 specifically states died, buried, hell and torment all in one chapter. You cannot deny these words. No Free, Luke 16:28 says lest they also come, meaning unless they don't repent!! What Luke 16 is referring too is if you don't repent this is your fate, it's not saying anything about the end fate of the five brothers. It's clearly a parable about repenting, and also a prophecy about the afterlife because it says died, buried, hell and torment.
For example, don't focus on the characters in the story, rather focus on the lesson that Jesus is teaching here. The lesson is that if you choose money over the salvation of God, your destination is hell. What Jesus is saying here is that you can take any rich man and any begger in the whole word, and the parable will fit for them too. The story in the bible gave the names begger and the rich man. It could of simply been Eminem the rapper and some begger on his front door. The lesson of the parable still applies to Eminem and the begger at his front door. Do you understand? These are lessons that speak to YOUR HEART!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUA8VtvFifk
Why doesn't Jesus saying the words died, buried, hell and torment not make sense to you when Jesus is the one who SPOKE!!! You sound like you need to work that out in your own heart.
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No, urk, I am not the one doing the ignoring. It is utterly amazing how many people can show you with Scripture how you are wrong and yet you completely ignore them and say they're wrong without any basis for doing so.
The word for "hell" in this verse is the Greek word hades which is roughly the equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol, or "grave," and is not the final destination of unbelievers, which is gehenna. It is very unfortunate that translations such as the KJV chose to translate three different Greek words as "hell," but they did. And now people such as yourself who refuse to actually study the Bible think that every use of "hell" in the KJV refers to the final destination of unbelievers.
I have asked you once to go study the Bible, look up all the uses of hades and all the uses of gehenna, and then come back and report what you find. If you don't do it, it shows that you are not at all serious about knowing the truth or studying your Bible.
Answer my questions. I have used very simple logic to show how your understanding of the passage is in error. Please stop avoiding what I've made so simple and clear and address it.
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Interesting how you left out the words died, buried and torment. What are the Greek words for died, buried and torment in Luke 16:22-24? Unfortunate? ha, yeah for you i guess. Does died, buried and torment mean something happy in Greek?
I guess your idea of death, burial and torment is different than scripture ? Luke 16:22-24.
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Despite my better judgement, I'm going to give this another try, urk. From your post #52 is the following statement:
"You cannot choose your fate after you die, we ALL make the choice to come to Christ in this lifetime ONLY!! Once you die, that's it, you're waiting for judgement and whether you are in the book of life or not!"
You have also been very clear that Luke 16:22-31 is Jesus speaking prophecy about what happens after Judgement Day. From post #49:
"It's speaking about AFTER judgement day AFTER we die and are judged."
So let's put some things together in syllogistic form:
P1 If people have a choice to come to Christ, they can be warned.
P2 At least one person can be warned (Luke 16:27-31).
C1 Therefore, at least one person has a choice to come to Christ.
P3 After the final judgement, people will not have the choice to come to Christ.
C2 Therefore, based on C1 and P3, Luke 16:27-31 is not speaking about after the final judgement.
Or:
P4 After the final judgement, all people will be in either heaven or hell.
P5 At least one person is not in either heaven or hell (Luke 16:27-31).
C3 Therefore, Luke 16:27-31 is not speaking about after the final judgement.
Someone else might be able to put together better syllogistic arguments, but do you agree with my conclusions? Why or why not? Is there a premise that you disagree with?
There is also more that could be said about the fact that neither the rich man nor Lazarus are resurrected prior to being found in Hades and Abraham's bosom. They died and were buried but not resurrected. For the purposes of the final judgement, all the dead, righteous and unrighteous are first resurrected.
"You cannot choose your fate after you die, we ALL make the choice to come to Christ in this lifetime ONLY!! Once you die, that's it, you're waiting for judgement and whether you are in the book of life or not!"
You have also been very clear that Luke 16:22-31 is Jesus speaking prophecy about what happens after Judgement Day. From post #49:
"It's speaking about AFTER judgement day AFTER we die and are judged."
So let's put some things together in syllogistic form:
P1 If people have a choice to come to Christ, they can be warned.
P2 At least one person can be warned (Luke 16:27-31).
C1 Therefore, at least one person has a choice to come to Christ.
P3 After the final judgement, people will not have the choice to come to Christ.
C2 Therefore, based on C1 and P3, Luke 16:27-31 is not speaking about after the final judgement.
Or:
P4 After the final judgement, all people will be in either heaven or hell.
P5 At least one person is not in either heaven or hell (Luke 16:27-31).
C3 Therefore, Luke 16:27-31 is not speaking about after the final judgement.
Someone else might be able to put together better syllogistic arguments, but do you agree with my conclusions? Why or why not? Is there a premise that you disagree with?
There is also more that could be said about the fact that neither the rich man nor Lazarus are resurrected prior to being found in Hades and Abraham's bosom. They died and were buried but not resurrected. For the purposes of the final judgement, all the dead, righteous and unrighteous are first resurrected.
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Yes, they can be warned. Teachers and preachers all over the world are preaching the gospel as we speak, but are sinners listening? no!! That's the lesson in Luke 16:31. No, after people die they will NOT have the choice to come to Christ. You are only judged on what you do in this lifetime.
Yes, after the final judgement, they will be either in heaven or hell. Final judgement judges ALL of humanity. Yes, they were resurrected, into Hades and Abraham’s bosom. The final judgement had already occurred for these two men. That's why Jesus is speaking prophecy. Other chapters in the Bible clearly state where the righteous and unrighteous go after judgement day. At least these are my thoughts.
Doulos Iesou
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This is not a thread about Luke 16 urk.. It is a thread stating that Hades in the NT is carrying over the same Greek word Hades used to translate the Hebrew word Sheol from the OT. Sheol already have people populating it therefore it cannot be referring to the place of final punishment.
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Well KJV version in Luke 16 says hell and torment. If it was just Hades grave, it wouldn't have the word torment written in more than once. so you be wrong.
Doulos Iesou
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1. The KJV is wrong, demonstrably so as I mentioned in my OP.
2. You're basing your whole argument of what this word means off of ONE usage, over and against hundreds of other examples to the contrary.
3. Notice the Rich man died and was BURIED.
4. It said he was buried, then talked about him being in Hades.
5. This is an allegorical parable about Jesus replacing the Levitical priesthood and it's total fiery destruction to come in the destruction of the Jerusalem.. among other things of course.
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