Has the Gifts of the Spirit ceased?

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Re: That was an EARLY error -

"The gift of tongues is for missionaries and prophets to beable to speak the language of those he is communicating the message too."

In the years immediately following the AZUZA St. revival, folks believed this, and actually committed themselves to travel to countries - PRESUMING that they would be empowered by the Holy Spirit to preach the Word in languages they hadn't learned.

It didn't take long to realize that it WASN'T going to work that way at all, and the efforts failed miserably, and were abandoned.

OCCASIONALLY, it Does happen, but VERY Occasionally.

I wonder why that is the case. maybe the Great Commission is not applicable to those of our time because it was completed by those to whom Jesus gave it a couple thousand years ago? Hmmm.............

 

[Watchman_2]

There is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible manuscripts. 'Tongues' of the Bible is never the gibberish one sees in the Pentecostal and Charismacostal religions.

Hence, since Gifts of the Spirit never existed to begin with, the topic question is moot.

 

[Alabaster]

Re: That was an EARLY error -

I wonder why that is the case. maybe the Great Commission is not applicable to those of our time because it was completed by those to whom Jesus gave it a couple thousand years ago? Hmmm.............

It still happens. I know of instances. What was given 2000 years ago has not been withdrawn. When the Kingdom reigns on earth, when Christ comes to reign and rule---that is the time we will have no need of the gifts. We will not need His power nor be edified, for His Church will be complete, and we will be like Him, reigning and ruling in His authority over the nations.

 

[Alabaster]

There is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible manuscripts. 'Tongues' of the Bible is never the gibberish one sees in the Pentecostal and Charismacostal religions.

Hence, since Gifts of the Spirit never existed to begin with, the topic question is moot.

Please use scripture to support your belief.

1 Corinthians 12:4 NLT
There are different kinds of spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit is the source of them all.

1 Peter 4:10 NLT
God has given each of you a gift from his great variety of spiritual gifts. Use them well to serve one another.

 

[Watchman_2]

Please use scripture to support your belief.

1 Corinthians 12:4 NLT
There are different kinds of spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit is the source of them all.

1 Peter 4:10 NLT
God has given each of you a gift from his great variety of spiritual gifts. Use them well to serve one another.

One can verify that I am correct in the Bible manuscripts.

As for your cited scriptures:

See 1 Cor. 12:4. It is 'diversities of gifts' in the KJV -- not 'spiritual gifts'.

See 1 Pet. 4:10. It is 'manifold grace' in the KJV -- not 'spiritual gifts'.

​

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What message, be specific please, does God wish to have communicated TODAY?

 

[hisbeloved]

One can verify that I am correct in the Bible manuscripts.

As for your cited scriptures:

See 1 Cor. 12:4. It is 'diversities of gifts' in the KJV -- not 'spiritual gifts'.

See 1 Pet. 4:10. It is 'manifold grace' in the KJV -- not 'spiritual gifts'.

KJV
1Cor12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts bretheren,I would not have you ignorant.
now down to verse 4 now there are diversites of gifts,but the same spirit.

Either you are choosing to be Ignorant or don't realize the in the context of the scripture Paul shows us that the gifts he is referring to in verse 4 are spiritual gifts, notice in verse 1 he say's concerning spiritual gifts then goes on to explain them and that explaination is included in verse 4.

This also proves your previous post false too,or maybe it is true in your eyes because you don't believe the scriptures and have made up your own doctrine possibly?

btw ,if you need a list of the nine gifts of the spirit or spiritual gifts (however you want to split the hairs) just let me know, because you are obviously blind to many of the scriptures or you would not be making the false statements regarding them.

 

[Watchman_2]

KJV
1Cor12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts bretheren,I would not have you ignorant.
now down to verse 4 now there are diversites of gifts,but the same spirit.

As I previously posted, there is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible manuscripts. That certainly applies to 1 Cor. 12:1. The word 'gifts' [charisma] does not exist in the manuscripts in v. 1. The word 'gifts' was inappropriately added by the translators -- most likely as a result of the bastardization of the Bible by the Roman Catholic Church [who added 'gifts' to the text too].

The true subject of 1 Cor. 12 is 'spiritual brethren'.

Either you are choosing to be Ignorant or don't realize the in the context of the scripture Paul shows us that the gifts he is referring to in verse 4 are spiritual gifts, notice in verse 1 he say's concerning spiritual gifts then goes on to explain them and that explaination is included in verse 4.

This also proves your previous post false too,or maybe it is true in your eyes because you don't believe the scriptures and have made up your own doctrine possibly?

btw ,if you need a list of the nine gifts of the spirit or spiritual gifts (however you want to split the hairs) just let me know, because you are obviously blind to many of the scriptures or you would not be making the false statements regarding them.

If you do your homework, you will come to the realization that Pentecostalism and Charismacostalism are premised upon the concepts of 'spiritual gifts' and 'unknown tongues', which both concepts do not exist in the Bible manuscripts. Once one learns this Truth, the only conclusion to be reached is that those religions are fraudulent.

 

[Sam21]

As I previously posted, there is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible manuscripts. That certainly applies to 1 Cor. 12:1. The word 'gifts' [charisma] does not exist in the manuscripts in v. 1. The word 'gifts' was inappropriately added by the translators -- most likely as a result of the bastardization of the Bible by the Roman Catholic Church [who added 'gifts' to the text too].

The true subject of 1 Cor. 12 is 'spiritual brethren'.



If you do your homework, you will come to the realization that Pentecostalism and Charismacostalism are premised upon the concepts of 'spiritual gifts' and 'unknown tongues', which both concepts do not exist in the Bible manuscripts. Once one learns this Truth, the only conclusion to be reached is that those religions are fraudulent.

You may be able to find a lot of christians who do not believe that the spiritual gifts are in effect today,however you will find very few christians who will deny that spiritual gifts are in the bible and were given to the church in the first century. Your position seems to be to outright deny what everyone can read in the bible. I can't see how you could win anyone to your position.

 

[Alabaster]

One can verify that I am correct in the Bible manuscripts.

As for your cited scriptures:

See 1 Cor. 12:4. It is 'diversities of gifts' in the KJV -- not 'spiritual gifts'.

See 1 Pet. 4:10. It is 'manifold grace' in the KJV -- not 'spiritual gifts'.

Scripture talks about given manifestations--gifts. Anything freely given is a GIFT. In one's haste to disbelieve God, one can become harsh to the point of calling Bible translators devious. God was in charge of that---they weren't devious.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To(G1161) anotherG2087 faithG4102 byG1722 theG3588 sameG846 Spirit;G4151 to(G1161) anotherG243 the giftsG5486 of healingG2386 byG1722 theG3588 sameG846 Spirit;G4151



G5486
χάρισμα
charisma
char'-is-mah
From G5483; a (divine) gratuity, that is, deliverance (from danger or passion); (specifically) a (spiritual) endowment, that is, (subjectively) religious qualification, or (objectively) miraculous faculty: - (free) gift.

 

[Watchman_2]

You may be able to find a lot of christians who do not believe that the spiritual gifts are in effect today,however you will find very few christians who will deny that spiritual gifts are in the bible and were given to the church in the first century. Your position seems to be to outright deny what everyone can read in the bible. I can't see how you could win anyone to your position.

I would surmise that you are correct in your assessment. However and nonetheless, 'spiritual gifts' does not exist in the Greek manuscripts. And, it was wholly inappropriate to insert the noun 'gifts' in 1 Cor. 12:1 as there already was the noun 'brethren' for which the adjective 'spiritual' describes.

I cannot explain the lack of scholarship of those who bastardize the Bible in such matter as to take the inappropriately inserted words in the English rendering and make a religion out of it. Perhaps, it was in hope of financial reward.

As far as winning anyone over, it is very easy to verify what I say. One can do it online with a KJV with Strong's Concordance numbering -

1Co 12:1 NowG1161 concerningG4012 spiritualG4152gifts, brethren,G80 I wouldG2309 notG3756 have youG5209 ignorant.G50
​

The word 'gifts' is italicized, which means it was added by the translators and not in the manuscripts. In addition, it did not receive a Strong's number, which also means it is not in the Bible manuscripts.

So, those who seek Truth will be won over quite easily. Those who want to ignore Truth for a tradition of man religion will find a way to be blind to it.

 

[Sam21]

I would surmise that you are correct in your assessment. However and nonetheless, 'spiritual gifts' does not exist in the Greek manuscripts. And, it was wholly inappropriate to insert the noun 'gifts' in 1 Cor. 12:1 as there already was the noun 'brethren' for which the adjective 'spiritual' describes.

I cannot explain the lack of scholarship of those who bastardize the Bible in such matter as to take the inappropriately inserted words in the English rendering and make a religion out of it. Perhaps, it was in hope of financial reward.

As far as winning anyone over, it is very easy to verify what I say. One can do it online with a KJV with Strong's Concordance numbering -

1Co 12:1 NowG1161 concerningG4012 spiritualG4152gifts, brethren,G80 I wouldG2309 notG3756 have youG5209 ignorant.G50
​

The word 'gifts' is italicized, which means it was added by the translators and not in the manuscripts. In addition, it did not receive a Strong's number, which also means it is not in the Bible manuscripts.

So, those who seek Truth will be won over quite easily. Those who want to ignore Truth for a tradition of man religion will find a way to be blind to it.

Friend, if you read the NT a lot you will find that many times a particular word is left out that is verified to be appropriate according to the context. Paul was clearly describing gifts from the Holy Spirit given to individuals,so your argument that because the word "gift"was not actually in the original does not change the fact that the context proves that Paul was describing spiritual gifts given to the church. You may be correct about the word "gift" being added at a particular place, however your conclusion that this is evidence that God did not give the church spiritual gifts is faulty because the context proves otherwise.

 

[Alabaster]

I would surmise that you are correct in your assessment. However and nonetheless, 'spiritual gifts' does not exist in the Greek manuscripts. And, it was wholly inappropriate to insert the noun 'gifts' in 1 Cor. 12:1 as there already was the noun 'brethren' for which the adjective 'spiritual' describes.

I cannot explain the lack of scholarship of those who bastardize the Bible in such matter as to take the inappropriately inserted words in the English rendering and make a religion out of it. Perhaps, it was in hope of financial reward.

As far as winning anyone over, it is very easy to verify what I say. One can do it online with a KJV with Strong's Concordance numbering -

1Co 12:1 NowG1161 concerningG4012 spiritualG4152gifts, brethren,G80 I wouldG2309 notG3756 have youG5209 ignorant.G50
​

The word 'gifts' is italicized, which means it was added by the translators and not in the manuscripts. In addition, it did not receive a Strong's number, which also means it is not in the Bible manuscripts.

So, those who seek Truth will be won over quite easily. Those who want to ignore Truth for a tradition of man religion will find a way to be blind to it.

Note that in 1 Corinthians 12:9, the word 'gifts' is used.



1 Corinthians 12:9
To(G1161) anotherG2087 faithG4102 byG1722 theG3588 sameG846 Spirit;G4151 to(G1161) anotherG243 the giftsG5486 of healingG2386 byG1722 theG3588 sameG846 Spirit;G4151



Game. Set. Match.

 

[hisbeloved]

Note that in 1 Corinthians 12:9, the word 'gifts' is used.



1 Corinthians 12:9
To(G1161) anotherG2087 faithG4102 byG1722 theG3588 sameG846 Spirit;G4151 to(G1161) anotherG243 the giftsG5486 of healingG2386 byG1722 theG3588 sameG846 Spirit;G4151



Game. Set. Match.

Alabaster i don't think you are gonna convince watchman of anything, after all a few post up he refused to believe you cause the you didn't use the KJV then when i came in with a game,set ,match with a KJV scripture proving him wrong,suddenly the KJV became bastardized and was no good.

Oh well,his loss is all I can say, if some refuse the power of God I guess I will just chalk it up to prophecy fullfilled.

They have a form of Godliness but deny the power there of.

Hey check out this video, were are gonna be sangin,'I'm a Pentecostal "on upcoming Pentecost.
by the way are you Apostolic?

 

[Alabaster]

Alabaster i don't think you are gonna convince watchman of anything, after all a few post up he refused to believe you cause the you didn't use the KJV then when i came in with a game,set ,match with a KJV scripture proving him wrong,suddenly the KJV became bastardized and was no good.

Oh well,his loss is all I can say, if some refuse the power of God I guess I will just chalk it up to prophecy fullfilled.

They have a form of Godliness but deny the power there of.

I agree.

Hey check out this video, were are gonna be sangin,'I'm a Pentecostal "on upcoming Pentecost.
by the way are you Apostolic?

What's that?

I'm just a King's kid.

I watched the video in your signature---it is very powerful. I have never seen the movie the images come from, but it sure gave me the sense of the powerful and surreal images our brother John would have seen and just a wee glimpse of what he may have experienced and felt---overwhelmingly. I was moved to tears. Oh, Jesus, the Lamb, slain for the world--how precious you are.

Thank you.

 

[Asyncritus]

You obviously either don't know or are choosing to overlook the fact that there are two types of tongues, one that calls for an interpretation,this is the gift of tongues, and another which is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost,which is a prayer language,that requires no interpretation,and it's purpose is to strengthen and build up of the one doing it,it also gives us the ability to pray the perfect will of God,which means it is doing the job that is was designed to do.

This is pure assertion without the slightest bit of scripture to back it up.

When Jesus was baptised, did he speak in tongues? After all, the H Sp descended visibly on Him, like a dove. As far as we know, the answer to that is 'No'.

So if He is our example, then what example do you see there about speaking in tongues?

And yes ,it is true ,that if the first type is spoken out loud it requires an interpretation.(gift of tongues),this also the type that Paul is referring to when he say's that not all speak in tongues,meaning not all have this gift.

If not all have this gift, then it is not a mark of salvation or anything else, really.

And it is also true ,that the prayer language tongues are not to be spoken aloud in the presense of unbelievers,like you quoted above, because they would think we were mad.

I wonder where you get this idea about 'prayer language tongues'?

Look, I believe that if scripture shows me plainly that something is to be done, I go with that. I thought about what you said, and what do I find in Scripture?

David and others wrote 150 psalms - which were all prayers to be sung. What language? Hebrew - the language known to everybody in Israel at the time.

Daniel. Jeremiah, Hezekiah, Solomon all prayed to God. In what language? Hebrew. How do we know? They've written them down for our benefit.

Jesus prayed to His Father too. In what language? Greek/Aramaic, known to everybody. How do we know? The prayers are written down for our benefit.

The disciples heard Him praying, and were so impressed by what they heard, they asked Him to teach them. So He did. And what did He teach them? Some unintelligible language? No, Greek/ Aramaic. How do we know? It's written down for us to benefit from.

Furthermore, He commands them too: After this manner therefore, pray ye...

I see nothing about any prayer language here.

I look into the Acts, and what do I find? They are all praying intelligibly - and what they said is written down for us to benefit from.

I find an angel praying too - so here is the tongue of angels. What language is it? Greek.

Re 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

How do we know? It's written down there for our benefit.

Futher more ,I have never seen the gift of tongues(the one that requires an interpretation) fail to be interpreted.
And if you were ever present in a service where this happened,you would no longer be an unbeliever, because just before this happens,there is such a quite hush and stillness that comes over the whole congregation,you could hear a pin drop,even the babies make no sound,then the one with the gift of tongues speaks,then the interpretation comes,usually through a different person,the presense of God is so tangable and heavy,before during and after one can hardly stand it.

I had a very learned friend who went to one of these meetings and spoke in tongues. The interpreter happily interpreted away.

Not wishing to embarrass anybody, my friend left. He had been reciting Homer's Iliad in the original, and reckoned that Homer would have been very surprised to hear that that was what he had written down!

I'll say no more.

One more thing, you said
"Paul states quite clearly that the purpose of tongues was to speak prophetically TO THE JEWS. Here's a newer version on the matter: HCSB

How in the world do you get that Paul was saying that this is the purpose of tongues out of this scripture?

I thought it was perfectly obvious.

21 ¶ It is written in the law:

By people of other languages
and by the lips of foreigners,
I will speak to this people;
and even then, they will not listen to Me,

Who do you think 'this people' is?

If you look back at Isa 28, you'll see that it was the Jews.

It couldn't be the church, because they had listened and obeyed already.

It couldn't be individuals, because 'people' means a nation.

So who else but the Jews?

This agrees perfectly with what Jesus Himself said. Have you ever read John 15 about the coming of the comforter? Here it is, and he tells us why it was coming. ESV:

26 ¶ “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

Bear witness? To whom? The church? Themselves personally? Who?

27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.

Bear witness? To whom? The church? Themselves personally? Who?

1 ¶ “I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away.

He now explains precisely who He means:

2 They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.
3 And they will do these things because they have not known the Father, nor me.

So who do you think is going to put them out of synagogues, kill them, didn't know God or Jesus?

Yes, the Jews.

So there we have the exact purpose of the coming of the Holy Spirit. There is no doubt about it at all.

And just in case you want a bit more proof, Here's Peter on the day of Pentecost, talking to the Jews:

32 This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which you now see and hear.

What did they see and hear? The apostles speaking in all the languages of those who had come to Jerusalem from every corner of the earth. Not gibberish, or any 'personal prayer language'.

What was the consequence of this? Thousands believed and were baptised - and then persecution arose.

Remember what Saul did? Expelling them from the synagogues, killing and imprisoning them? Just as Jesus had said?

John 15.2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yes, the time comes, that whoever kills you will think that he does God service.
3 And these things will they do to you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Asyncritus]

When Jesus took them at his parousia, his "Body" was redeemed from the Earth and is no longer in this world, meaning on this planet.
What that means is that the body of Christ that PAul was referring to was in fact the ONLY body and that there is no Body of the Anointed One left here in this world since he took them out of it. That means no one is being "called" today and that the need for Apostles, Shephards, and Teachers within the body have long passed.

Well that's a new one on me! Unless, of course, you are a JW? In which case, all is comprehensible.

 

[Sparkey]

This is pure assertion without the slightest bit of scripture to back it up.

When Jesus was baptised, did he speak in tongues? After all, the H Sp descended visibly on Him, like a dove. As far as we know, the answer to that is 'No'.

Quick response to just one part -- because the prophecy was not fulfilled at that time does not mean that it wasn't fulfilled later (at Pentecost) and thereafter.

Pardon me for not giving a more expansive response to your post but there are now many voices that have come into thread.

Some believe that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are seen today, others state that there is no such thing as any gift of the Holy Spirit. It's getting to a point where it's senseless to try to discuss because there is no mutual framework. I'm not saying this is what you believe but only remarking on the last few posts.

Best course where there is such a wide gap between beliefs would be to seek God personally and ask Him to reveal His word.

 

[Sparkey]

__________________________________________

"Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? (13) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"(Luk 11:12-13 KJV)​

We can know that if we ask our heavenly Father to give the Holy Spirit we won't be getting a scorpion. It seems obvious that we are instructed to ask in expectation of a good gift, right?
__________________________________________

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"(Mat 3:11 KJV)​

John baptized in water. "He that cometh later" would of course be Jesus. John said that He would baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Does anybody insist that because Jesus wasn't baptized in Fire at that time that he never endured trial? No. Do we argue that since John baptized, Jesus would not "baptize in the Holy Spirit"? I hope no.
_____________________________________________

"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."(Act 1:4-5 KJV)​

_____________________________________________


John declared that Jesus would baptize, not with water, but with the Holy Ghost. Jesus did indeed baptize with the Holy Ghost at the Feast of Shavu'ot (Pentecost). He called this experience that the disciples would share "the Promise of the Father". Jesus promised this before and said they should wait for what they heard about, the Promise of the Father, that he had spoken of before ("which, saith he, ye have heard of me") in a parable of general instruction (see Luke 11). There are many prophecies that speak of this Promise but even those who were scholars of the Word didn't understand until they saw it happening.

Pentecost was celebrated agriculturally to commemorate the time when the first fruits were harvested and brought to the Temple. The Jews counted each of the days from the second day of Passover to the day before Shavu'ot, 49 days or 7 full weeks, hence the name of the festival. The counting reminds us of the important connection between Passover and Shavu'ot: Passover freed us physically from bondage and the fulfillment of the Passover (the Crucifixion) was understood and connected to the agricultural celebration of first-fruits.

This ingathering continues today and we celebrate the Giving of the Holy Spirit. The other aspect of Jewish ceremony that was celebrated on this day was the giving of the Torah on Mt. Sinai. It is noteworthy that the holiday is called the time of the giving of the torah rather than the time of the recieving of the torah. It is the time of the Law being given, and written -- but this time, not on tablets of stone but into our hearts. .

_____________________________________________

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world." (Mat 13:37-40 KJV))​

_____________________________________________

The harvest continues unto the end of the world. These truths are not going to be proved or disproved by a debate process but instead they are revealed by God. It is up to each of us to study the Word of Truth to show ourselves approved by correctly understanding the mysteries that where hidden from the beginning. It is my hope that the truth that rings out in my heart also helps shed light such that others might better understand the good news of our Christ, the Anointed of God.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Well that's a new one on me! Unless, of course, you are a JW? In which case, all is comprehensible.

It was new for me as well until I opened the OT more and studied the NT and the prophecies in light of the OT and the Jews of Jesus' day perspective. What I discovered was that MOST of the prophecies found a fulfillment in Christ and by the end of the 1st century. Included in the fulfilled prophecy was the "coming again" of Jesus. According to his words and the expectations of his students, he was to come in judgment and to gather his saints within a generation's time. Unlike the preterists, I believe that Jesus did just what he said he'd do and that was returning in judgment as well as raising the dead saints from their graves to meet with those who were alive in the air at Jesus' coming. I believe those things literally, not figuratively or spiritually, but literally happenned and that those individuals were in the words of Paul, "clothed in immortality" and it is them at have been reigning with Jesus and helping in the administration of the Kingdom of Heaven since that time.
Sorry to disappoint but I am no JW, not an Adventist either, 1914 means nothing to me, I find organized religion today to be a bit of a joke as well as oxymoronic, and I even agree that preterists better understand the prophesies than dispensationalists.