He Rose On Sunday True or False

[handy]

The Lord's day is hardly the day of the 'sun' as if this is somehow connected to pagan sun worship.

It is the day the Lord arose from the grave and thereby changing everything...the old has passed away and the new has come.

Sometimes we just have to remember we live under the NEW COVENANT, not the old that was filled with shadows of things that were to come.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Based on what most of scripture that referenced the resurrection seem to indicate, I kind of agree with the OP that the resurrection was on our Saturday. The point where I disagree is that or Saturday evening to the 1st century Judeans would have been considered the beginning of the 1st day of the week as opposed to the sabbath. So either way you slice it, scripturally we have Jesus' resurrection occuring most likely on the 1st day of the week though most likely NOT on Sunday.

 

[handy]

Based on what most of scripture that referenced the resurrection seem to indicate, I kind of agree with the OP that the resurrection was on our Saturday. The point where I disagree is that or Saturday evening to the 1st century Judeans would have been considered the beginning of the 1st day of the week as opposed to the sabbath. So either way you slice it, scripturally we have Jesus' resurrection occuring most likely on the 1st day of the week though most likely NOT on Sunday.

On what basis?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Is Sunday worship scriptual or a doctrine of man?

A doctrine of man.
Groups use Acts 20, 1 Cor 16, and Rev 1 to somehow make Sunday "The Lord's Day" or at the very least a biblical day of NT worship when in fact we see no such mandate or directive given by the scriptures.
The gathering mentioned in Acts 20 makes more sense if we understand the 1st day of the week to be Saturday evening as opposed to Sunday. 1 Corinthians 16 has no mention of worship whatsoever, and even if we were to read a worship service into the text, we have no way of knowing if the gathering was on Sunday or Saturday evening. The mention of "the Lord's Day" in Revelation no where implies Sunday, or even the sabbath for that matter. When read in the greater context of Revelation (the apocalyse!!!) and in conjunction with other Old Testament mentions of "the Lord's Day" or 'day of the Lord', we can understand that it likely is NOT a reference to any specific day of the week, but rather to a period of the outpouring of wrath/judgment by God.

 

[handy]

On what basis are you making that the first day of the week is not Sunday?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

On what basis are you making that the first day of the week is not Sunday?

On the basis that the Biblical Day according to the Jews and Genesis declares that the day starts during the evening. The day in scripture never started at midnight, but rather at sunset. With that said, the 1st day of the week, like all days of the week begins at sunset. That means that what we consider as Saturday night is according to the ancient Jews that base their days on Genesis, is actually the beginning of the first day of the week. Our designations (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, etc,), means nothing as it pertains to counting the days or determining what the first or 7th day for that matter is.
The sabbath is a good example. It was the 7th day, and it always begins at sunset on Friday and ends at sunset on Saturday which ushers in the 1st day of the week.

Here's http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=33318&p=495384&viewfull=1#post495384 an old thread that discusses the Sabbath more in depth.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Did you mention animal sacrifice ;)? The old Sabbath ---

Sabbath Sacrifices:

In addition to the daily sacrifice there was the Sabbath sacrifice.
Numbers 28: 9: And on the Sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot ...
10: This is the burnt offering of every Sabbath beside the continual burnt offering ...

This meant that in the course of a 12 month year (48 Sabbaths) another 96 lambs were sacrificed in addition to the 708 daily sacrifice total. (Source) --- http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/vital/sacrific.html#part2-3

We have Christians with the old Torah/Talmud mindset in many ways including the Sabbath. The Seventh-Day Adventists built their whole denomination around the old Sabbath day covenant which requires animal sacrifices. For the Jews that don't believe the Messiah has come, where are the animal sacrifices? I agree Handy, it's all about the New Covenant which is Jesus Christ the Lamb offering for all and always.

The Word is clear Jesus Christ rose on the 1st day of the week and after all he has done and does for us he has his day (The Lord's Day).

Sunday --- True (Jesus Christ Lord of the Sabbath).

I am not aware of any place in scripture that speaks of Sunday being the Lord's Day, so what do you base the apparant declaration that Sunday is in fact the Lord's Day on? The Revelation that used the terminology says NOTHING about Sunday and the other biblical texts that says things like 'day of the Day' do not mention Sunday either.

 

[handy]

Well, I don't think anyone participating in this discussion isn't well aware that the Jewish way of reckoning a day begins at sunset/daylight... we've all taken that into account.

Let me ask this... did the Jew of old worship God solely on Friday night, or did they meet for corporate worship during the daylight hours on Saturday as well?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Well, I don't think anyone participating in this discussion isn't well aware that the Jewish way of reckoning a day begins at sunset/daylight... we've all taken that into account.

Let me ask this... did the Jew of old worship God solely on Friday night, or did they meet for corporate worship during the daylight hours on Saturday as well?

What is met by corporate worship in reference to the weekly sabbath? (Lev. 23 perhaps)

 

[handy]

I guess I was thinking more of when they gathered on the Sabbath day in the synagogues... to read the scriptures... etc.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Well, I don't think anyone participating in this discussion isn't well aware that the Jewish way of reckoning a day begins at sunset/daylight... we've all taken that into account.

Let me ask this... did the Jew of old worship God solely on Friday night, or did they meet for corporate worship during the daylight hours on Saturday as well?

When they came together to read the scriptures as mentioned in the gospels and Acts (but strangely such practices weren't mentioned when God's sabbath directives were given in the Torah), on the Sabbath I don't know if they only met at night or if they met at night and during the daylight hours. I wouldn't rule out either.

 

[Fedusenko]

I know there is contriversy around Michael Rood, but he has a video called the Jonah Code that tackles this subject. You don't have to agree with everything to gleam some good pearls.

 

[Slider]

Handy wrote:



“Yes, there is are many texts which speak of His rising on the thirdday, not after the third day.

Cliff, what do you think the timeline is...with three full nights, two fulldays, plus one partial day? Do you believe that Jesus was crucified onWednesday or Thursday? I've heard of Wednesday being the probable day of Hiscrucifixion, but if He died on Wednesday, He would be in the grave longer thanthree days...for we know that they hurried to get Him buried, prior to sundownand the beginning of the Sabbath. As you say, we cannot go into a fourthday...the Scriptures are quite clear He rose on the third and that the thirdday was Sunday.â€



That’s the beauty of my argument. He could be in the ground a full three daysand three nights and still get up on the third day. After they realized that he was dead, theytook him off the cross, and buried him. Let’s just say for argument’s sake that he was in the tomb at 5 PM. He could’ve got up at 5 PM on Saturday andthus, fulfilled 72 hours, and still actually rose on the third day. Why? Because that day didn’t end until sundownwhich was still an hour away.



Handy wrote:



“Mark 16:1 and Luke 24:1 shows us that the women bought the spices when theSabbath was over.â€



Wrong. Mark 16:1 saysthe purchased (bought) the spices. Luke24:1 says they carried the prepared spices (brought…. There is a difference in “boughtâ€and “brought†though it be just one letter!) Luke 23:56 says they prepared thespices before the Sabbath.



Handy wrote:



“According to John, Nicodemus had also bought spices and they bound thebody and wrapped it with the spices.â€



Wrong again. John19:39 says that he BROUGHT (not bought) spices. The spices Nicodemus brought were already prepared. Furthermore, John does not account for Marypreparing them. They were alreadyprepared.



Handy wrote:



“While none of the Gospels specifically mention the exact time the womenand Nicodemus made their purchases….â€



Wrong again. TheGospels say the women bought them after the Sabbath and prepared them beforethe Sabbath. There were two Sabbaths!



Handy wrote:



“The Chief Priests asked Pilot for a guard the day after the day ofpreparation ...which was the Sabbath day. Matthew 27:62 makes this quite clear.â€



Highly improbable. The Chief Priests and Phasisees, as well as Nicodemus and the women werestill Jews. It was against their law todo business on the Sabbath. You aresaying that very devout men to the Law broke the Law. They blamed Jesus for breaking the Law… Thatis why he was murdered. You are sayingthey broke the Law of Moses… But the truth is that if Jesus was murdered onWednesday, it gives the Priests the opportunity to ask this.



Handy wrote:



“The Scriptures don't tell us exactly when the guards showed up. Sometimeafter the Pharisee's went to Pilot on the Sabbath. (Not that they really didmuch of a job...but their job was impossible anyway.)â€



Yea… You are telling me they showed up Saturday evening. The Roman soldiers conquered the friggin’world and because they were well disciplined and under an iron fist. Yet, they couldn’t guard a tomb? Your model says they were there for howlong? Matthew (besides your attempts tomake it sound like it was Sunday morning) says that Jesus was out of the groundand resurrected by sundown. So you aretelling me that the mightiest soldiers on earth only were at watch for a fewhours? When Mary showed up no soldierswere around!



I’ve got too much evidence to believe otherwise. He was crucified on Wednesday, and Rose onSaturday. I can account for everything…. You can’t.

 

[Former Christian]

This is a very long thread. Maybe this has already been mentioned, if so I missed it.

What I'm unclear on is, what difference does it make what day Jesus rose? Why is this controversy is so important?

FC

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Cliff, what do you think the timeline is

First let me state the obvious. If we count the afternoon the Lord was buried as one of the three days; then we are forced to count Friday as crucifixion day. But that won't work because there aren't enough nights from Friday afternoon to Sunday morning.

So then, if we're to have any success at this; we cannot count the afternoon the Lord was buried as one of the three days. My advice is: Let the cross have crucifixion day all to itself— leave that day alone and don't start your countdown till after the sun sets upon Golgotha. Put another way: the Lord's cross owned crucifixion day, while the Lord's resurrection owned the grave, and neither shared a day with the other.

So then, if we bury the Lord late Thursday afternoon— not counting that afternoon as one of the three days —it works out perfectly.

if He died on Wednesday, He would be in the grave longer than three days

Wednesday is over-budget because he would have to stay in the grave a fourth night in order to revive on Sunday morning.

Nicodemus must have purchased his sometime on Friday, prior to sundown.

I don't think Nicodemus went shopping for his spices: the record only says he brought them; suggesting to me that he already had them at hand. I think Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathaea were all set and ready to go ahead of time in anticipation of the Lord's demise.

In addition, according to John 19:42, Judaism was wrapping up its preparation day that afternoon; which is the day when Jews remove leaven from their homes; and slaughter and roast lambs ready-to-eat by sundown. In other words: the Lord was buried the eve of the first day of the Feast Of Unleavened Bread; which is a special sabbath rather than a regular sabbath.

and the women

This is where it gets really, really tricky.

Two separate groups of women are mentioned in regards to the Lord's burial. One group of anonymous women prepared spices the very afternoon that he was interred; while another group consisting of Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome went shopping for theirs after the regular sabbath ended; in other words: they went shopping Saturday night when shops re-opened for evening business.

It causes a great deal of unnecessary confusion when people assume that the anonymous women of Luke 23:55-56 are the specifically named women of Mark 16:1-2.

Cliff
/

 

[handy]

I’ve got too much evidence to believe otherwise. He was crucified on Wednesday, and Rose onSaturday. I can account for everything…. You can’t.

Fine then, Slider. Go ahead and take your ball and don't let me play... that'll show me!

But that won't work because there aren't enough nights from Friday afternoon to Sunday morning.

I'm not sure we should count from Friday afternoon onwards. In Jewish reckoning, any part of a day can be considered a "day" and the days were counted from sundown to sundown...so Friday would include our Thursday night. When adding Thursday night into the mix (seems strange to us, given that we mark time from midnight to midnight and even then tend to discount the times of early morning darkness as part of the same day of an event) then the three nights are fulfilled. It's more consistant as well, since we are already counting Saturday evening as the start of the first day of the week...certainly Thursday evening is the start of the fifth.

Your other points... I'll have to wait until I have more time... it's been a day of upheaval involving a wild and wooly calf, an injured cattle dog, an 82 mile round trip and $131 vet bill. Soo... I need to get busy on other things.

The short answer on the spices is that sometimes one just has to allow a certain amount of common sense to prevail. These spices weren't just things that most housewives had in the cupboard. Since the day of the crucifixion wasn't a Sabbath, I would imagine that most of the spices were purchased on the day they would be needed. After all, who knew besides Jesus that He would be arrested, tried and crucified in the scope of one day.

But...Cliff, do you happen to have any material that shows back to back Sabbath days... stretching from sundown Friday through sundown Saturday? It would be interesting to see. I do agree with you, no way can it be Wednesday, but Thursday is a possibility. However, that kind of messes with how the Hebrews counted days back then. I truly do believe, given the way the Hebrews looked at days...automatically thinking in terms of "today" being what we perceive as "last evening to this evening" Friday makes much more sense as the day of crucifixion. Not to mention that very early in Christian writings "Good Friday" was already being observed. (Long before Nicea) I'm not Catholic, so no way do I hold that the early church leader writings are as authoritative as the Scriptures...but they can be illuminating, just as a historical schedule of sorts that shows back to back Sabbath could be.

 

[Fedusenko]

This is a very long thread. Maybe this has already been mentioned, if so I missed it.

What I'm unclear on is, what difference does it make what day Jesus rose? Why is this controversy is so important?

FC

Because it turns Good Friday into Mediocre Friday.

 

[Former Christian]

Fedusenko

Com'on. There must be more to it than that.

FC

 

[Slider]

.

Wednesday is over-budget because he would have to stay in the grave a fourth night in order to revive on Sunday morning.

This is where it gets really, really tricky.

Two separate groups of women are mentioned in regards to the Lord's burial. One group of anonymous women prepared spices the very afternoon that he was interred; while another group consisting of Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome went shopping for theirs after the regular sabbath ended; in other words: they went shopping Saturday night when shops re-opened for evening business.

/

First, All four accounts agree on one thing: when they found him whether it be Sunday morning or after 6 PM Saturday, Jesus was already gone. The earliest they found him is in Matthew, which says they found him Saturday evening. The latest is in Mark which says Sunday morning at sunrise. But in all cases, he was already risen.

Second, if you look in Luke 24:10 Mary Magdelane is identified as one of the women. Mark 16:1 also identifies Mary Magdelane.

 

[Elijah674]

Well, I don't think anyone participating in this discussion isn't well aware that the Jewish way of reckoning a day begins at sunset/daylight... we've all taken that into account.

Let me ask this... did the Jew of old worship God solely on Friday night, or did they meet for corporate worship during the daylight hours on Saturday as well?

You say.. 'that the Jewish way of reckoning a day..'
Come on! Are you saying that The Godhead are Jewish??? Read the Gen. 1 & 2
chapters. These day's are a given even before perfect Adam + Eve came about!

--Elijah