Hell according to Jesus and His apostles

[JLB]

After death is a trial, a judgement, so Christ was offered to bear their sins to make possible they pass the Trial by believing the gospel preached to the dead (1 Pet. 6:4) and then eagerly wait for Christ's return, for salvation.

The fire of hell is fire that burns and torments.

The fire is everlasting as the punishment is everlasting and the torment is everlasting, and the destruction is everlasting.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:…And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:41,46


Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:9-11


There are s no “second chance“ to hear and obey the Gospel after one dies.

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
Hebrews 9:27




JLB

 

[Tenchi]

Alfred Persson wrote:

"Incorrect, the OT is filled with scriptures depicting repentance in Sheol/Hades and forgiveness. Here's a list:

Many Old Testament Scriptures speak of redemption from hell:

Therefore, it is implicit in every Old Testament text which speaks of prayers for forgiveness of sin and God's redeeming souls from hell supports the conclusion God grants a second chance for life in Hell."

"For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!" (Ezek. 18:32 NKJ)

There is nothing in this verse that depicts repentance in Sheol/Hades and forgiveness. God is speaking to the living, to the nation of Israel, in fact, not the dead.

Ezekiel 18:26-32 (NASB)
26 "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27 "Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28 "Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29 "But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

In context, Ezekiel 18:32 has nothing to do with the idea that folks who've died may repent their sin and be saved. God is speaking to the people of Israel who are living, urging them to avoid the death that sin produces, by repentance and a turning away from iniquity. He warns that He will judge each Israelite according to his/her conduct and that a life of iniquity will only produce death. How, then, you extract a depiction of post-death purgatorial repentance from Ezekiel 18:32 is beyond me. Nothing in the verse or its immediate context has anything to do with such a notion.

God kills but also makes alive, He wounds but also heals. That God smites in punishment but mercifully heals is a common theme (Hos. 6:1; Isa. 30:26; 57:17, 18; Jer. 17:14).

Yes, and? None of what you observe here indicates that God gives opportunity for the unrepentant dead to be saved after their decease. All of the verses you cite are in reference to the living, not the dead.

God makes alive those He killed, brings up from the grave those He put there. That is a second chance.

1 Samuel 2:6 (NASB)
6 "The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Hannah does not say here that the Lord kills someone and then makes them alive, or that the Lord brings someone down to Sheol and then raises them up. Her words employ a parallelism common to Jewish thought and speech that contrasts what the Lord can do. He is able both to kill and make alive, both to bring down to Sheol and to raise someone up. The idea that the Lord does both things to the same person is not what Hannah actually says. This is something you are forcing into her words.

2 Samuel 22:3-13 (NASB)
3 My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.
4 "I call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised, And I am saved from my enemies.
5 "For the waves of death encompassed me; The torrents of destruction overwhelmed me;
6 The cords of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
7 "In my distress I called upon the LORD, Yes, I cried to my God; And from His temple He heard my voice, And my cry for help came into His ears.
8 "Then the earth shook and quaked, The foundations of heaven were trembling And were shaken, because He was angry.
9 "Smoke went up out of His nostrils, Fire from His mouth devoured; Coals were kindled by it.
10 "He bowed the heavens also, and came down With thick darkness under His feet.
11 "And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind.
12 "And He made darkness canopies around Him, A mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky.
13 "From the brightness before Him Coals of fire were kindled.

Clearly, David is speaking figuratively in his song above. Sheol has cords it wraps around people? Death uses snares on folks? God, who is Spirit, has ears and feet and rides on a cherub? The wind has wings? In light of the very obvious figurative use of language in this passage, it is evident David was not, in fact, in Sheol surrounded by its cords, or actually caught in a snare laid by death. Trying to use such poetic language as a basis for a purgatorial doctrine is not a fair handling of God's word.

The prophet David speaking by Holy Spirit (Acts 2:30-31) of the Christ professed his belief God would not leave his soul in hell, but would show him the "path of life" and raise him from the dead. Essentially, a second chance for life.

Psalm 16:8-11 (NASB)
8 I have set the LORD continually before me; Because He is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.
9 Therefore my heart is glad and my glory rejoices; My flesh also will dwell securely.
10 For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
11 You will make known to me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; In Your right hand there are pleasures forever.

Acts 2:31-32 (NASB)
31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.
32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

These passages are both speaking of the resurrection of Christ, not anyone else. To no one else may they be properly applied since Jesus was an entirely unique Person, the God-Man sent to earth to redeem humanity.

And so on. Each of the instances from Scripture that you've provided suffer from the same out-of-context, eisegetical problems. Every one. I haven't the time to show you how this is so. I think, though, that I've demonstrated in the examples above the eisegetical nature of your handling of God's word (and the faulty conclusions that arise necessarily from doing so).

Incredible. Here are the verses:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

I've explained to you already why these verses do NOT establish a purgatorial doctrine. In short, you are doing the same eisegetical mishandling of them that you've done above. To repeat myself:

"1 Peter 4:4-7 (NASB)
4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;
5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

Peter says nothing in this passage of the wicked who "run to excess dissipation" being preached to in hell. Peter has indicated in this passage only that the Gospel was preached to both living persons and to those who are now dead so that they all might live in the Spirit according to God's will (provided they respond positively, in saving faith, to the Gospel). Peter is trying to be broad in the application of his remarks, but he is not indicating a purgatorial process at all in the above passage."

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

From my reply in your other thread:

"Hebrews 9:24-28 (NASB)
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

It's always really important to understand any one verse or passage in its immediate context. Verse 27 and 28 are one sentence, and so Paul's thought is not finished at the end of verse 27 but at the end of verse 28. Taking both verses together, as they are written, Paul is saying that when all people die, they are immediately subject to divine judgement, and sent either to Paradise (Abraham's Bosom) or into flames of torment. This is what Jesus described in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. There will come a time when Jesus returns to earth to complete the salvation of the born-again, bringing them into an eternal rest in the new heavens and earth, from which sin has been entirely and forever removed. To do this, however, Jesus will not need to make another sacrifice, as he did the first time he came to earth as "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." This is Paul's main point at the end of Hebrews 9, which he begins to form in verse 25: "...nor was it that he (Christ) would offer himself often..."; continues in verse 26: "once at the consummation of the ages he has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself"; and further develops in verse 28: "...having been offered once to bear the sins of many, (Christ) will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin...". Paul's point, then, is that Christ's second appearance on earth will not involve any more sacrifice but will simply complete the salvation he had already successfully accomplished, once-for-all on the cross of Calvary. In Hebrews 9:27-28, then, Paul is not trying to teach that there is a second salvation available to people who have died unrepentant in their sins. Not at all. His thought is occupied with the idea of the once-for-all nature of Christ's atoning sacrifice, which he goes on in chapter 10 to more fully explain, and summarizes in the verses below:

Hebrews 10:10-14 (NASB)
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Because Jesus has accomplished fully, perfectly our redemption through his atoning work on the cross, he need never again make any sacrifice for sin. Through his sacrifice, we are now as born-again people saved from the penalty and power of sin and will, when Christ returns, enjoy the "salvation without reference to sin" which is the completion of our salvation in the eternal eradication of the presence of sin in the New Jerusalem. This is what Paul was communicating in Hebrews 9:27-28, not that salvation could occur for unrepentant people after they'd died."

 

[Alfred Persson]

There are s no “second chance“ to hear and obey the Gospel after one dies.

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
Hebrews 9:27




JLB

As for Hebrews 9:27, Christ said Christians "shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life" (Jn. 5:24 NKJ) [3]. That means the "judgment" (2920 κρίσις krisis) in Hebrews 9:27 is deciding what happens to non-Christians after they die, not Christians who have been saved by grace (Eph. 2:5-10).



"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)



Therefore, the "judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 is "the second chance for salvation", because after this judgment Christ will appear: "To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time…for salvation." (Heb. 9:28 NKJ).

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis),
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)


That fits the meaning of the Greek krisis, it denotes a "trial, contest, selection" where an "opinion or decision" is given one way or the other.-Strong's Concordance.



The exclusion of Christians (because they believe in Christ and therefore already passed from death into life John 5:24) proves belief or non-belief in Christ is central to this "judgment". The "Judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 is the "second chance trial" to decide if those being judged are among the "many" Christ offered to bear the sins for (Heb. 9:28).



Christ "was offered once" "at the end of the ages" (Heb. 9:26) so all who died without Christ, including the generations who lived and died " since "the foundation of the world", would be eligible for His sacrifice for sin. They were all lost without Christ " but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself…to bear the sins of many" (Heb. 9:26, 28 NKJ).



Read it for yourself, it screams "second chance for non-Christians", they died and were judged and now some of them eagerly wait for Christ's salvation.



24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis),

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 NKJ)

 

[JLB]

As for Hebrews 9:27, Christ said Christians "shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life" (Jn. 5:24 NKJ) [3]. That means the "judgment" (2920 κρίσις krisis) in Hebrews 9:27 is deciding what happens to non-Christians after they die, not Christians who have been saved by grace (Eph. 2:5-10).

The point is it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,…


There is no second chance to hear the Gospel after a person dies.



JLB

 

[JLB]

As for Hebrews 9:27, Christ said Christians "shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life" (Jn. 5:24 NKJ) [3]. That means the "judgment" (2920 κρίσις krisis) in Hebrews 9:27 is deciding what happens to non-Christians after they die, not Christians who have been saved by grace (Eph. 2:5-10).



"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)



Therefore, the "judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 is "the second chance for salvation", because after this judgment Christ will appear: "To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time…for salvation." (Heb. 9:28 NKJ).

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis),
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)


That fits the meaning of the Greek krisis, it denotes a "trial, contest, selection" where an "opinion or decision" is given one way or the other.-Strong's Concordance.



The exclusion of Christians (because they believe in Christ and therefore already passed from death into life John 5:24) proves belief or non-belief in Christ is central to this "judgment". The "Judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 is the "second chance trial" to decide if those being judged are among the "many" Christ offered to bear the sins for (Heb. 9:28).



Christ "was offered once" "at the end of the ages" (Heb. 9:26) so all who died without Christ, including the generations who lived and died " since "the foundation of the world", would be eligible for His sacrifice for sin. They were all lost without Christ " but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself…to bear the sins of many" (Heb. 9:26, 28 NKJ).



Read it for yourself, it screams "second chance for non-Christians", they died and were judged and now some of them eagerly wait for Christ's salvation.



24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis),

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 NKJ)

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11


This is for Christians.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I am not a universalist, neither did my post promote universalism. It was moved to this board against my will to suppress truth.

If its not moved back to theology I will withdraw from this forum.

Those who want to debate this issue should wait until its moved back to Theology.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, (Rom. 1:18 NKJ)

 

[Highway54]

Of course we do. We have clear proof souls survive physical death. You reject that. That Hades is the abode of disembodied souls. You reject that. The Pharisees believed Abraham wouldn't permit their entry into Gehenna/Hades. Christ contradict that teaching. You ignore that. The Rich Man was sorrowful for his sin. You ignore that. Abraham and the redeemed in "paradise" wanted to help the Rich Man in Torments. You don't believe that. There is an impassible gulf separating Hades from Paradise. You don't believe any of it literally exists.

So, we understand it very differently. I believe its real actual revelation about the afterlife, you do not.

Yes sir we do part ways here, God stated very clearly we would die, it was satan that said we cannot die. I have to believe God through His word Alfred.

God has not left us ignorant as to what death is as well. How does His word define death? How does that fit into what you said sir?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes sir we do part ways here, God stated very clearly we would die, it was satan that said we cannot die. I have to believe God through His word Alfred.

God has not left us ignorant as to what death is as well. How does His word define death? How does that fit into what you said sir?

Satan lied to Eve, but that is irrelevant to God's truth.

Everyone, good or bad dies physically.

God promises the righteous they will not die, but live. As everyone dies, God is not talking about physical life.

That contradicts JW doctrine 100%

21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live? (Ezek. 18:21-23 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

The point is it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,…


There is no second chance to hear the Gospel after a person dies.



JLB

Were you saved by grace when you believed in Jesus, or does it happen after you die once, during the Judgment?

 

[Alfred Persson]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11


This is for Christians.

Christians take part in the 1st resurrection. That is when we appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ, and it is then He treats our actions, whether good or bad.

All Christians are saved when they believe in Christ, in this life, by grace through faith.

Not after we die, by judgment.

Do you disagree?

If not, then describe your judgment. What exactly is being judged.

Or perhaps you disagree; Aren't saved yet.

What precisely will you do after you die to get saved?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Highway54]

Satan lied to Eve, but that is irrelevant to God's truth.

Everyone, good or bad dies physically.

God promises the righteous they will not die, but live. As everyone dies, God is not talking about physical life.

That contradicts JW doctrine 100%

21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live? (Ezek. 18:21-23 NKJ)

The Bible defines death Alfred, what does it say sir?

 

[Alfred Persson]

The Bible defines death Alfred, what does it say sir?

I cited the text, God says those who repent will not die. But we all die, physically. Therefore, God promised our souls would survive physical death.

21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live? (Ezek. 18:21-23 NKJ)

Don't you believe God? Unlike the Society, He says repentant wicked will live and not die.

 

[Alfred Persson]

From my reply in your other thread:

"Hebrews 9:24-28 (NASB)
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

It's always really important to understand any one verse or passage in its immediate context. Verse 27 and 28 are one sentence, and so Paul's thought is not finished at the end of verse 27 but at the end of verse 28. Taking both verses together, as they are written, Paul is saying that when all people die, they are immediately subject to divine judgement, and sent either to Paradise (Abraham's Bosom) or into flames of torment. This is what Jesus described in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. There will come a time when Jesus returns to earth to complete the salvation of the born-again, bringing them into an eternal rest in the new heavens and earth, from which sin has been entirely and forever removed. To do this, however, Jesus will not need to make another sacrifice, as he did the first time he came to earth as "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." This is Paul's main point at the end of Hebrews 9, which he begins to form in verse 25: "...nor was it that he (Christ) would offer himself often..."; continues in verse 26: "once at the consummation of the ages he has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself"; and further develops in verse 28: "...having been offered once to bear the sins of many, (Christ) will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin...". Paul's point, then, is that Christ's second appearance on earth will not involve any more sacrifice but will simply complete the salvation he had already successfully accomplished, once-for-all on the cross of Calvary. In Hebrews 9:27-28, then, Paul is not trying to teach that there is a second salvation available to people who have died unrepentant in their sins. Not at all. His thought is occupied with the idea of the once-for-all nature of Christ's atoning sacrifice, which he goes on in chapter 10 to more fully explain, and summarizes in the verses below:

Hebrews 10:10-14 (NASB)
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Because Jesus has accomplished fully, perfectly our redemption through his atoning work on the cross, he need never again make any sacrifice for sin. Through his sacrifice, we are now as born-again people saved from the penalty and power of sin and will, when Christ returns, enjoy the "salvation without reference to sin" which is the completion of our salvation in the eternal eradication of the presence of sin in the New Jerusalem. This is what Paul was communicating in Hebrews 9:27-28, not that salvation could occur for unrepentant people after they'd died."

Unfortunately, your exegesis of Hebrews 9:27-28 leaves out an important fact, and that invalidates it. The Judgment referred to is a "krisis" judgment:

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (krisis), (Heb. 9:27 NKJ)

Christians don't undergo that kind of judgment ("krisis") when they die, only unbelievers do:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

 

[Highway54]

I cited the text, God says those who repent will not die. But we all die, physically. Therefore, God promised our souls would survive physical death.

21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live? (Ezek. 18:21-23 NKJ)

Don't you believe God? Unlike the Society, He says repentant wicked will live and not die.

So doesn't take much to see that to date all eventually die. But on the positive side, we believe that those who survive through the great tribulation may never have to die Alfred,.

 

[Tenchi]

Unfortunately, your exegesis of Hebrews 9:27-28 leaves out an important fact, and that invalidates it. The Judgment referred to is a "krisis" judgment:

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (krisis), (Heb. 9:27 NKJ)

Christians don't undergo that kind of judgment ("krisis") when they die, only unbelievers do:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

This is what is called a facile response. Nothing you've repeated here counters any of what I showed you from the immediate context of Hebrews 9:27-28. As I've already explained to you in other threads, everybody will stand before God at the Final Judgment, the unbelieving and unrepentant to eternal separation from God, the saved to eternal fellowship with Him in the New Jerusalem. In any case, the writer of Hebrews was not attempting to teach a "second chance" doctrine in chapter 9. Not at all. His focus was upon explaining the difference between the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ for sin and the oft-repeated sacrifice of the OT priests for sin. When the writer of Hebrews wrote,

Hebrews 9:28 (NASB)
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

he was not indicating that there was a second opportunity for salvation for the sinner who dies, unrepentant, in his/her sin, but only that Christ would appear a second time for the "salvation without reference to sin" which is to say, for the full completion of his salvation of the born-again who "eagerly await Him." What is the "full completion of salvation"? As I've explained to you before, it is the permanent removal of the presence of sin (Revelation 21:26-27; Psalms 1:5-6; from the born-again, who, in Christ, have already been made free from the penalty and power of sin.

Romans 8:23-25 (NASB)
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

1 Corinthians 1:6-8 (NASB)
6 even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,
7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 3:20-21 (NASB)
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

In the NT, the only ones who are said to "eagerly await" Christ are the born-again.

What's more, Hebrews 9:27-28 does NOT say that those who "eagerly await him" have endured krisis already.

Hebrews 9:26-28 (NASB)
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

All the writer of Hebrews indicates in these verses is that the appearance of Christ a second time is appointed to occur just as surely as judgment follows death for all mankind - not to make another atoning sacrifice, but to complete his salvation of the born-again, who have been eagerly waiting for him to do so. That's it. No "second chance" teaching at all in the passage - just like in the rest of the NT.

By the way, it isn't only the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man that flatly refutes the notion of a second chance for the lost after death. Consider the following:

Revelation 20:13-15 (NASB)
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

At the Great White Throne Judgment, the dead (all dead, great and small - vs. 12) are given up from wherever they are and judged according to their deeds and are, with Death and Hades, consigned to the Second Death if their name is not found written in the Book of Life (Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5). There is not the slightest hint of a "second chance" offered to anyone in this account, nor is there any other biblical account that, as plainly and directly as this one, indicates an alternative, "second chance" ending for any sinner who has died unrepentant in their sin.

I haven't had to erect any convoluted, jump-all-over-the-Bible, eisegetical argument to show what Scripture explicitly, repeatedly, and simply indicates is the case for any who die unrepentant in their sin. This fact ought to give you serious pause in your consideration of who has the right of things.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is what is called a facile response. Nothing you've repeated here counters any of what I showed you from the immediate context of Hebrews 9:27-28. As I've already explained to you in other threads, everybody will stand before God at the Final Judgment, the unbelieving and unrepentant to eternal separation from God, the saved to eternal fellowship with Him in the New Jerusalem. In any case, the writer of Hebrews was not attempting to teach a "second chance" doctrine in chapter 9. Not at all. His focus was upon explaining the difference between the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ for sin and the oft-repeated sacrifice of the OT priests for sin. When the writer of Hebrews wrote,

Hebrews 9:28 (NASB)
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

he was not indicating that there was a second opportunity for salvation for the sinner who dies, unrepentant, in his/her sin, but only that Christ would appear a second time for the "salvation without reference to sin" which is to say, for the full completion of his salvation of the born-again who "eagerly await Him." What is the "full completion of salvation"? As I've explained to you before, it is the permanent removal of the presence of sin (Revelation 21:26-27; Psalms 1:5-6; from the born-again, who, in Christ, have already been made free from the penalty and power of sin.

Romans 8:23-25 (NASB)
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

1 Corinthians 1:6-8 (NASB)
6 even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,
7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 3:20-21 (NASB)
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

In the NT, the only ones who are said to "eagerly await" Christ are the born-again.

What's more, Hebrews 9:27-28 does NOT say that those who "eagerly await him" have endured krisis already.

Hebrews 9:26-28 (NASB)
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

All the writer of Hebrews indicates in these verses is that the appearance of Christ a second time is appointed to occur just as surely as judgment follows death for all mankind - not to make another atoning sacrifice, but to complete his salvation of the born-again, who have been eagerly waiting for him to do so. That's it. No "second chance" teaching at all in the passage - just like in the rest of the NT.

By the way, it isn't only the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man that flatly refutes the notion of a second chance for the lost after death. Consider the following:

Revelation 20:13-15 (NASB)
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

At the Great White Throne Judgment, the dead (all dead, great and small - vs. 12) are given up from wherever they are and judged according to their deeds and are, with Death and Hades, consigned to the Second Death if their name is not found written in the Book of Life (Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5). There is not the slightest hint of a "second chance" offered to anyone in this account, nor is there any other biblical account that, as plainly and directly as this one, indicates an alternative, "second chance" ending for any sinner who has died unrepentant in their sin.

I haven't had to erect any convoluted, jump-all-over-the-Bible, eisegetical argument to show what Scripture explicitly, repeatedly, and simply indicates is the case for any who die unrepentant in their sin. This fact ought to give you serious pause in your consideration of who has the right of things.

You weren't saved "when you believed"?
You must wait for Christ's second coming?
You must wait for Judgment Day?


Why doesn't the Bible say:
"Believe in the Lord Jesus and at His second coming you will be saved?"
"Believe in the Lord Jesus and your salvation will be completed on Judgment Day when He purges sin from you?"

Nothing convoluted in your exegesis? Eh? Doesn't seem that way so far.

Instead of a judgment that happens when men die once, you put it far into the future at the Great White Throne Judgment.

So how do men end up in Hell after they die once. Or heaven?
Why did angels take Lazarus into "paradise" and the Rich man into Hades without a judgment?

In fact, if you are right, the apostle convoluted things:

Why mention Christ's second coming when in fact nothing happens until after His 1,000 year millennial kingdom, during the Great White Throne Judgment.


AND where in Revelation 20:11-15 does it say:
"Christians have their salvation completed when Christ appears, to permanently remove their sin?

I can't see that in these verses. Can you point it out:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-21:1 NKJ)

In fact, I can't find that taught ANYWHERE in the Bible. Where did you get it from?

 

[Alfred Persson]

So doesn't take much to see that to date all eventually die. But on the positive side, we believe that those who survive through the great tribulation may never have to die Alfred,.

That doesn't truly explain what you think God is promising. I recall citing Ezekeil 18:4 to prove "souls died when the body died". But it wasn't until I read "30 Years a Watchtower Slave" by W.J Schnell I became aware of God's promise repentant souls will live"

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezek. 18:20-21 KJV)

But JWs don't believe that. They believe everyone ceases to exist upon physical death, and only God's memory of them remains. And here they interpret God will "recreate" from His memory, the one who repented and did what is right.

There is a logical problem with that a thought experiment will reveal.

Suppose God didn't wait for Highway54 to die, but recreated another "YOU" and it began living your life, while you were out shopping. Moved into your house, slept with your wife, and when you got home, slew you dumping your body in the dumpster.

Did you die? Not according to the Watchtower, it was "you" who stole your life.

The sad part about this, if the Watchtower were correct. All the hours you spend witnessing for Jehovah, won't benefit you at all. The only thing your labor accomplishes, is so "COPY" of you will inherit paradise earth. You remain in the ground, decomposing.

 

[Tenchi]

You weren't saved "when you believed"?
You must wait for Christ's second coming?
You must wait for Judgment Day?

Strawman. This isn't what I wrote. Please read more carefully.

Why doesn't the Bible say:
"Believe in the Lord Jesus and at His second coming you will be saved?"
"Believe in the Lord Jesus and your salvation will be completed on Judgment Day when He purges sin from you?"

An argument against a Strawman.

Nothing convoluted in your exegesis? Eh? Doesn't seem that way so far.

Pot and kettle, sir. Pot and kettle.

Instead of a judgment that happens when men die once, you put it far into the future at the Great White Throne Judgment.

I don't; the Bible does.

So how do men end up in Hell after they die once. Or heaven?
Why did angels take Lazarus into "paradise" and the Rich man into Hades without a judgment?

I'm sure you know full well that the term "hell" in the Bible refers to a number of different things: the grave, Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, the Lake of Fire.

As Revelation 20:14 indicated, Hades (aka - hell) is cast into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna - aka - hell) at The Great White Throne Judgment, along with death. Until that time, the Rich Man in the flames of torment (in Hades, presumably) remains in them but will end up ultimately in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, where all whose names do not appear in the Lamb's Book of Life will end up. And as Revelation 20:13-15 indicates, there is no second chance offered to anyone at The Great White Throne Judgment.

God does not need the Final Judgment to know that a man is to be consigned to the flames of torment, nor does He need to wait for that time of judgment in order to rightfully, justly consign an unrepentant sinner to torment. God, being omniscient, has always known who would be cast out from Him into eternal hell; He doesn't determine such a thing only at the Final Great White Throne Judgment. And so, it is right and just that the unrepentant, rebellious sinner, whom God knows to be such, go immediately into the torment they deserve. Being the Final Arbiter of all such things, with a perfect knowledge of how a person has lived, He is not obliged to wait on a process of law as we humans do, withholding punishment of the sinner until their sin is prosecuted.

AND where in Revelation 20:11-15 does it say:
"Christians have their salvation completed when Christ appears, to permanently remove their sin?

I can't see that in these verses.

Again, please read more carefully.

"As I've explained to you before, it is the permanent removal of the presence of sin (Revelation 21:26-27; Psalms 1:5-6) from the born-again, who, in Christ, have already been made free from the penalty and power of sin."

Did you read the two passages cited above? Did you consider the other passages that followed this quotation that indicated that the believer "waits eagerly" for the completion of what was begun when they were converted? Apparently not. All of the "wait eagerly" passages show us that there is more yet to come for the saved person who has already been freed from the penalty and power of sin. Their salvation is completed, not only by the permanent removal of sin from them, but in the glorification of their bodies, and in the eternal joy of being in the presence of Christ. Do you deny that the believer must wait for these things, even though they're saved? Do you deny that these things are part of what their salvation, their spiritual birthright as born-again children of God?

But all of these...objections are just deflections, I think, from the other rebuttals I made to your Second Chance Theory.

 

[Highway54]

That doesn't truly explain what you think God is promising. I recall citing Ezekeil 18:4 to prove "souls died when the body died". But it wasn't until I read "30 Years a Watchtower Slave" by W.J Schnell I became aware of God's promise repentant souls will live"

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezek. 18:20-21 KJV)

But JWs don't believe that. They believe everyone ceases to exist upon physical death, and only God's memory of them remains. And here they interpret God will "recreate" from His memory, the one who repented and did what is right.

There is a logical problem with that a thought experiment will reveal.

Suppose God didn't wait for Highway54 to die, but recreated another "YOU" and it began living your life, while you were out shopping. Moved into your house, slept with your wife, and when you got home, slew you dumping your body in the dumpster.

Did you die? Not according to the Watchtower, it was "you" who stole your life.

The sad part about this, if the Watchtower were correct. All the hours you spend witnessing for Jehovah, won't benefit you at all. The only thing your labor accomplishes, is so "COPY" of you will inherit paradise earth. You remain in the ground, decomposing.

Yes sir, we believe that when a person dies they cease to exist, you are correct on that. it was satan that stated you will not die, God said you would, I believe Him sir. If you end up dying, and something does go on then it will be settled for you at that time for sure. We believe in what will seem like an instant in time you will awaken in the resurrection Alfred.