The Bible does not contradict itself Alfred, if it seems to, it is only our flawed understanding sir.
Hell according to Jesus and His apostles
- Thread starter Alfred Persson
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The Bible isn't contradicting itself, its contradicting you and the JWs.
22 Then Samuel said: "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He also has rejected you from being king." (1 Sam. 15:22-23 NKJ)
I agree, so how do you feel that we contradict that? In fact are we not more accurate by not replacing His name? Why do you feel Bible alteration is appropriate?
I cite God's Name Yahweh all the time; Jehovah is following a Spanish monk's alteration. But you're evading the cited text because it does contradict you and the Watchtower. That is terrifying to me, rebellion and stubbornness.
You are not incorrect that is His name for sure. Of course every other word in your sentence is in English. For some reason you reject His name in English. May I ask your opinion of why the translators of the King James 1611 Version included it 4 times?
What part of you cited text is it that you feel we contradict Alfred?
Every part, but we see different movies when we look at the same screen. I see the text of scripture declaring souls that repent shall not die. You can't see those words, the WatchTower stands between you and scripture, blocking your view:
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezek. 18:20-21 KJV)
I can't remove the Watchtower blocking your eyes from seeing the words in red. Only God the Holy Spirit can do that.
When I read the scripture, my mind concentrates on what I am learning. When you read it, you recall the relevant Watchtower statement that applies, which might even include some of that verse spliced in.
That veils the scripture from view, in JW minds the Watchtower statement is scripture. JWs cannot discern the difference between them.
Its satanic genius what they did, by mixing in their own words with "spliced....scripture", on an unconscious level their words take on the authority of God's Word in the heart of the JW. JWs can't separate the two.
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I believe God was not incorrect sir, you can side with satan saying we can not die, I guess time will tell, but no doubt it will be exciting to find out what all the resurrected ones have to say about it. Me personally I think most of them will wonder what happened. You are here one second, and the next in a new world, hard to imagine.
I'm curious. The words in Red Font in the scripture below, what do they say to you? Please explain in your own words, what they mean:
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezek. 18:20-21 KJV)
A soul is a breathing creature Alfred, sin brings forth death, death is an absence of life. The person ceased to exist, but has the future prospect of the resurrection, which is a return of the life force.
To date with the exception of those now living, all have died. Yes common sense but none the less true. Believe it or not, when Jesus returns he is only going to remove the wicked, and the Bible states an innumerable people will come out of the tribulation, since these have been judged as sheep, they do not ever have to die that inherited death. So that verse will have a literal fulfillment.
This account was a chastisement from God to His people, the account goes on to say that if they turn back from their wicked ways they will keep alive. That of course did not mean forever at that time as none of them are still here sir.
| Eze 18:27 | Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. |
| Eze 18:28 | Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. |
| Eze 18:29 | Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? |
| Eze 18:30 | Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. |
| Eze 18:31 | Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? |
| Eze 18:32 | For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. |
You didn't explain how God can be truthful and promise the repentant soul will not die....When everyone dies physically.
Bible Believers, knowing God does not lie deduce the soul does NOT die when the body dies. God is talking about "spiritual death and life", not physical life and death.
JWs are just like the Sadducees, they didn't believe man had a soul that would live on after physical death, or the resurrection of the body.
Christ proved conclusively both exist by implication in the very books they claim to believe:
26 "But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying,`I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob '?
27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."
28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well... (Mk. 12:26-28 NKJ)
Jesus pointed out the Sadducees greatly err because the Torah they accept as inspired by God proves them twice wrong.
Not only were the souls of the Patriarchs alive with God --they are a daily reminder God must also fulfill His covenant promise they and their seed would dwell physically in the land forever:
"Did they not read God promised THEM and their seed would live physically in the land forever? (Gen. 17:7-8; 26:3; 28:13)
Therefore, the resurrection of the Body is taught in the Torah.
As the scribe, an expert in Rabbinic Argument testified, Jesus "answered them well". He proved beyond any reasonable doubt the souls of the Patriarchs were alive with God, and their bodily resurrection.
Compare this similar 1st century Rabbinic Argument against the Sadducees for the resurrection in the Jewish Talmud.
Whence is the doctrine of the Resurrection derived from the Torah? As it is said, ' Ye shall give the Lord's heave-offering to Aaron the priest' (Num. xviii. 28).
But did Aaron live for ever to receive the offering? Is it not true that he did not enter the land of Israel? Consequently the text teaches that he is to be restored to life (in the Hereafter) and will receive the heave-offering. Hence the Resurrection is deducible from the Torah' (Sanh. 90b). - Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud (Schocken Books, NY, 1995), p 358.
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Would you not say that if a soul lived on that it would be conscious of it's surroundings as you are now Alfred?
That is uncertain. There are texts which suggest the righteous dead don't experience time as we do, that they rest. Lazarus was reclined in Abraham's bosom. Jesus spoke of Lazarus being "asleep". Paul says those who sleep in Christ wait for resurrection. This usage could have arose because the body looks like its sleeping when dead. Don't know.
I depended upon you to realize its the same name but the times are different.
I believe the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus was actually an OT style prophetic warning to the Pharisees (symbolized by the Rich Man), they they would end up in Hades because they rejected Christ's authority (Lk. 16:13-14). Christ knows all things, He knew He would raise Lazarus from the dead in the near future, and that instead of listing to him the Pharisees would conspire to kill him:
10 But the chief priests plotted to put Lazarus to death also,
11 because on account of him many of the Jews went away and believed in Jesus. (Jn. 12:10-11 NKJ)
In a parable people aren't named, so this isn't a parable. Its a OT style prophetic warning (2 Sam. 12:1-10) the Pharisees were wrong, Abraham would not stand at the entrance of Hades to prevent them from entering Hades. On the contrary., the poor they despise as cursed will be with Abraham.
You are definitely on the right track Alfred, it was a warning to the Pharisees. Since it is related to what we are talking about in another thread, I am not going to comment fully on this here. So thinking on the line that it was a warning to them in particular, let me give you our interpretation of what it means, and you determine if you think that it is feasible sir:
What is the meaning of the story of the rich man and Lazarus?
The story shows that two groups of people were about to experience a great change in circumstances.
The rich man evidently symbolized the Jewish religious leaders, “who were money lovers.” (Luke 16:14) They listened as Jesus spoke, but they opposed his message. These religious leaders looked down on the common people.—John 7:49.
Lazarus symbolized the common people who accepted Jesus’ message and who were despised by the Jewish religious leaders.
The change in circumstances was drastic for both groups.
● The Jewish religious leaders thought that they enjoyed God’s favor. But they experienced death, as it were, when God rejected them and their form of worship because they did not accept Jesus’ message. And they were tormented by the message that Jesus and his followers preached.—Matthew 23:29, 30; Acts 5:29-33.
● The common people—who had long been neglected by their religious leaders—were now experiencing favor. Many accepted the Scriptural message that Jesus taught and benefited from it. They now had the opportunity to enjoy God’s favor eternally.—John 17:3.
Let me know if you think this may be the correct understanding Alfred.
No, its mostly wrong. It was a warning to the Pharisees, who believed this about the after life:
“In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant” (Genesis Rabbah xlviii).
Jesus contradicted that, Abraham would save the poor the Pharisees despised, not the Rich Pharisees'. Their souls would go to Hades:
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lk. 16:22-23 NKJ)
But you deny Pharisees have a soul that survives physical death and will end up in Hades as Christ taught.
I can't follow any Society that contradicts Jesus Christ my Lord. He owns me and all I possess, He bought me with His blood. I am duty bound to believe everything Christ teaches and reject the teaching of those who contradict Him.