Hell = Harsh?

[Rick W]

Another topic that comes up every so often here is , "Do newborns go to heaven if they die?"
That's another one on the same line that's never been conclusively answered except to say judgment is in God's hands.

Whatever your views of punishment are, temporary Hell, annihilation or whatever what do you think? Are those ignorant of Christ condemned with the unbelievers or not? Before we can continue with what the punishment is we first need to establish the transgression.

Hopefully we can get back to the main topic.

 

[mutzrein]

Another topic that comes up every so often here is , "Do newborns go to heaven if they die?"
That's another one on the same line that's never been conclusively answered except to say judgment is in God's hands.

Whatever your views of punishment are, temporary Hell, annihilation or whatever what do you think? Are those ignorant of Christ condemned with the unbelievers or not? Before we can continue with what the punishment is we first need to establish the transgression.

The answer must still be the same - unless one (whether new born baby, a remote jungle tribesman, or an embecile) is born of the Spirit of God they cannot see or enter the kingdom of God. Therefore they perish.

The transgression was not theirs but Adams and all of mankind from that time till this is born dead. They are dead in trespasses and sin.

Why would a righteous God, who by the way is not the God of the dead but the living, judge and punish the perishing?

 

[Rick W]

Why would a righteous God, who by the way is not the God of the dead but the living, judge and punish the perishing?

I forgot until I saw that question. You believe Hell is reserved only for those that backslide?
There are some here that believe if you lose your salvation (there's a lot of discussion on that one as we all know) you're dead again.

So what should we do? Come up with a doctrine of differing levels of punishment so our sense of judgment is satisfied? Or do we just say there is no Hell to satisfy our own sense of correctness? Or we can go with annihilation which pretty much accomplishes the same thing... eliminates the problems involved with accepting God's wrath.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart that His power should be known. Pharaoh was molded as a vessel of wrath. Was that fair? God took the firstborn of all of Egypt including cattle whether anyone heard the Word of God or not. Was that righteous judgment? The point is that no matter what we feel about what God does or doesn't do He is still God and there is no higher court to appeal one's case.

Because of Adam death came into the world. Whether one believes that refers to the first death or the second isn't the issue since death was imputed through the sin of one man where there was no death before.
So God gave us a VERY serious warning. That was the first one.
The second warning came by way of a flood wiping out every man, woman and child regardless if they heard of God or not.

We now face a third and last, the topic of this thread. We've had two very grave warnings the gravity of which is tremendous. If we choose to ignore the previous two then what makes anyone believe the third really won't be that bad?

 

[epistemaniac]

hey John.... good question....

here is my 2 cents on how I worked this out, maybe it will help... maybe not...

First, I started with the realization that God's ways are past my finding out. God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and perfectly just and holy. Therefore my own feelings regarding God's conduct have to be examined for what they are, and where they come from, ie a sinful finite human being. So I had to start with the fact that no matter what, I am in no position to ever stand in judgment over God and His ways. If you believe in God at all, and you confess this to be true, and you believe in the God of the Bible, this seems to be a wise place to start.

Secondly I had to look at sin itself. Admittedly people today just do not take the concept of sin all that seriously. Even one of the greatest affronts to God of all, stark atheism, active disbelief and unbelief, is seen as fairly harmless. But that is not the way God speaks of sin. The prophet Isaiah gives us a good picture of how seriously we need to take sin in the sixth chapter:

Isaiah 6:1-5 (ESV)
1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!†4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!â€Â

One of the fascinating aspects of this passage is the angels. Look at them... sinless, unfallen perfect angels... and yet even they, when confronted with the awesome holiness of a perfect just and absolutely holy God, are forced to cover their feet and face!! So much more then, do we understand Isiah's reaction. He is undone!! This is the view we have to take of sin, it is serious, so much so that the bible says that the wages of sin is death.

Romans 6:23 (ESV) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Close on the heels of this point, is the question of "what about the innocent native who has never heard the gospel?" Well the bible is clear on this point as well, there is no such thing as "an innocent native". There is no such thing as an innocent anybody, other than the perfect sinless One, Jesus Christ. The bible says that all have fallen short of the glory of God;

Romans 3:9-18 (NASB) 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "There is none righteous , not even one; 11 There is none who understands , There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside , together they have become useless ; There is none who does good , There is not even one." 13 "Their throat is an open grave , With their tongues they keep deceiving ," "The poison of asps is under their lips"; 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness"; 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood, 16 Destruction and misery are in their paths, 17 And the path of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

and further, that people are, by their very nature hostile towards God and are again, by their nature, sinners;

Ephesians 2:1-3 (NASB) 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

These sinners, that is, everyone outside of Christ, are said to be "children of wrath". So we need to put to rest the entire idea that there is an innocent undeserving person out there who might be accidentally condemned by God for rejecting His Son. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Any native out there who has never heard of the gospel knows this to be true of themselves, if they are honestly looking at their hearts. They know the moral law in their hearts, and have transgressed against it. They are guilty sinners.

A third point, is that God is sovereign, absolutely so.... He is sovereign over every aspect of His creation, including controlling the "where" and the "when" that anyone is born.

Acts 17:26 (ESV) And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,"

God is omniscient, and He knows the end from the beginning;

Isaiah 46:8-10 (ESV)
8 “Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, 9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

What this means for our subject is this: no one will ever be born in a time and place except that God wills it. Therefore when we are confronted with the question "what about those who have never heard?" we know that for reasons known only to God Himself, He has determined that many persons will in fact live out their entire lives without ever hearing the gospel, and thus, be lost. Given God's perfect foreknowledge, and knowing not only what has happened, what is happening now, what will happen, He also knows what might have happened. Perhaps with this knowledge He knows that the native American born on the North American continent in the year 1350 would not have accepted the gospel even had they been born in the same location 600 years later? This is speculation to some extent, I am certain about a few things though, God's perfect omniscience, and that He is perfectly just and holy. So I have to trust Him that He will take care of this, and any other issue, in a way that is consistent with His nature.

In any case, Jesus Himself is very clear that to reject Him is to incur God's condemnation:

John 3:18 (ESV) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

And we know that Jesus also said that He is the ONLY way to God the Father:

John 14:6 (ESV) Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

And that there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved:

Acts 4:12 (ESV) And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.â€Â

So that sets the groundwork and answered a few questions for me, before I came to study the nature of personal eschatology itself, that is, what is the nature of the condemnation that all those outside of Christ will face? here I realize that is is very fashionable to adopt some form of Annihilationism (that unbelievers will simply cease to exist, either immediately after death, or after "paying for their sins" for an indeterminate amount of time) and Universalism where of course, everyone, even Satan, will one day be saved. I have never been one to be much concerned with fashion though. Now I realize that most who hold these positions do so for the very same reasons I hold to my view, we seek to honor God and to be true to His word. However, I have to take sides with the majority of Christians through the ages, and say that I believe that the penalty for rejecting God, the penalty for sin in general, is eternal punishment. Sin is just that serious.

Let me stop here, and just recommend a few writings to you that may be of help here. The first is William Shedd's "The Doctrine of Endless Punishment", the book is free online at http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/T ... shment.pdf
as well as this from Jonathan Edwards: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/works2.xi.ii.html entitled "Of Endless Punishment: CONCERNING THE ENDLESS PUNISHMENT OF THOSE WILL DIE IMPENITENT."

I am not sure if you have easy access to a public library, but a couple of other more recent books on this subject are Robert Morey's "Death and the Afterlife". Minneapolis, Minn: Bethany House, 1984; as well as "Two Views of Hell: A Biblical & Theological Dialogue by Edward William Fudge and Robert A. Peterson".

blessings,
ken

Hi everyone,

I just joined this forum to ask a couple of questions which have been bugging me.

I've been a christian for a while, and I hope this question doesn't confuse anyone else.

Recently I have been constantly thinking about the idea of "hell" and how harsh it seems.
I have a non-christian friend who I speak to now and then, I must say he is actually quiet arrogant, he says things like "religion was made by .. etc etc for the purposes of ..

Yes, very know it all, very arrogant.

and I agree that this is bad, very bad, and I wish he wasn't this way.

However..

The punishment for being a non-christian is what has been bothering me...

Burn for the rest of eternity? ( don't know if its actually burn, but something bad and eternal )
How can 80 years of dis-obedience equal to an eternity of punishment?
I mean God is invisible and silent after all, I can sometimes see why people would not believe.

is this harsh or is it just me ?

 

[mutzrein]

Why would a righteous God, who by the way is not the God of the dead but the living, judge and punish the perishing?

I forgot until I saw that question. You believe Hell is reserved only for those that backslide?
There are some here that believe if you lose your salvation (there's a lot of discussion on that one as we all know) you're dead again.

So what should we do? Come up with a doctrine of differing levels of punishment so our sense of judgment is satisfied? Or do we just say there is no Hell to satisfy our own sense of correctness? Or we can go with annihilation which pretty much accomplishes the same thing... eliminates the problems involved with accepting God's wrath.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart that His power should be known. Pharaoh was molded as a vessel of wrath. Was that fair? God took the firstborn of all of Egypt including cattle whether anyone heard the Word of God or not. Was that righteous judgment? The point is that no matter what we feel about what God does or doesn't do He is still God and there is no higher court to appeal one's case.

Because of Adam death came into the world. Whether one believes that refers to the first death or the second isn't the issue since death was imputed through the sin of one man where there was no death before.
So God gave us a VERY serious warning. That was the first one.
The second warning came by way of a flood wiping out every man, woman and child regardless if they heard of God or not.

We now face a third and last, the topic of this thread. We've had two very grave warnings the gravity of which is tremendous. If we choose to ignore the previous two then what makes anyone believe the third really won't be that bad?

Yes I agree – very grave warnings indeed but I’m afraid that our thoughts, beliefs, doctrines etc will do nothing to change the end result. While our understanding of scripture may vary, at the end of the day, God determines what will be.

 

[savagesoto]

eternal hell is harsh...

people say God needs to be "just' but how can infinite punishment be given for infinite sins?


True justice would CEASE punishment once all has been repaid...hence Jesus saying" Matthew 5:26
I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

God is just...amen :yes

 

[Captain Sarcastic]

Hi everyone,

I just joined this forum to ask a couple of questions which have been bugging me.

I've been a christian for a while, and I hope this question doesn't confuse anyone else.

Recently I have been constantly thinking about the idea of "hell" and how harsh it seems.
I have a non-christian friend who I speak to now and then, I must say he is actually quiet arrogant, he says things like "religion was made by .. etc etc for the purposes of ..

Yes, very know it all, very arrogant.

and I agree that this is bad, very bad, and I wish he wasn't this way.

However..

The punishment for being a non-christian is what has been bothering me...

Burn for the rest of eternity? ( don't know if its actually burn, but something bad and eternal )
How can 80 years of dis-obedience equal to an eternity of punishment?
I mean God is invisible and silent after all, I can sometimes see why people would not believe.

is this harsh or is it just me ?

It's just you.

I'll turn this question on its ear for you: what the Son of Man went through for you and me--was that harsh? Was it harsh enough that the Son was separated from the Father and the Spirit for the first time ever--for you and me? Was it harsh that He took the sin of the world upon His righteous shoulders for you and me?

We all need to lose our finite mindsets here and ask these questions from GOD'S perspective--ultimately the only one that matters anyway.

 

[emmauk007]

Does the Bible indicate as to whether the dead fell any pain and are tormented:
Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 KJV
{9:5} For
the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not
any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the
memory of them is forgotten. {9:6} Also their love, and
their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have
they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done
under the sun.
{9:7} Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy
wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
{9:8} Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head
lack no ointment. {9:9} Live joyfully with the wife whom
thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he
hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for
that [is] thy portion in [this] life, and in thy labour which
thou takest under the sun. {9:10} Whatsoever thy hand
findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work,
nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave,
whither thou goest.

PSALMS
{146:4} His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very
day his thoughts perish.

“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.â€Ââ€â€La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.

 

[turnorburn]

Who are we to say whether hell is harsh or not, are we arrogant enough to say we think
like the almighty. I often think the book of Job was written to answer that question.
We should be asking: did God the Father think it necessary to send His Son to the cross
to save us sinners from the harsh reality of hell.

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

 

[savagesoto]

It's just you.

I'll turn this question on its ear for you: what the Son of Man went through for you and me--was that harsh? Was it harsh enough that the Son was separated from the Father and the Spirit for the first time ever--for you and me? Was it harsh that He took the sin of the world upon His righteous shoulders for you and me?

We all need to lose our finite mindsets here and ask these questions from GOD'S perspective--ultimately the only one that matters anyway.

Maybe if our perspective is that Gods ultimate "justice" and "love" is torturing people FOREVER just because he didnt unveil the truth to them in this life, then maybe we as a race need to total discard our ideas of "justice" and "love" because apparently our versions are too merciful and too just and too unconditional

Me though, I tend to believe God can only be greater in justice and love...not less than humans.

 

[Drew]

“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.â€Ââ€â€La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.

I could not agree more. Many, seemingly most, are looking at the Hebrew scriptures through the spectacles of Greek dualism. So when we read that "soul vs body" dualism back into the scriptures, all sorts of problems arise.

One of the errors that such thinking gives rise to is the notion of eternal torment. I think that the scriptures are pretty clear - the unredeemed are ultimately annihilated, they do not experience eternal torment.

 

[JoJo]

I'll turn this question on its ear for you: what the Son of Man went through for you and me--was that harsh? Was it harsh enough that the Son was separated from the Father and the Spirit for the first time ever--for you and me? Was it harsh that He took the sin of the world upon His righteous shoulders for you and me?

We all need to lose our finite mindsets here and ask these questions from GOD'S perspective--ultimately the only one that matters anyway.

Captain Sarcastic, I am grateful I found something we can agree on!

 

[savagesoto]

again...if Gods perspective of love and justice is that the majority of His creations that were UNWILLINGLY born into sin, will spend eternity in torture for not "getting the right set of beliefs in time"...then we as humans need to COMPLETELY scrap our ideals of justice being fair and love being unconditional...because that is not truly the God we serve in that case

Gods justice and love should not be any less than a humans, it can only be GREATER and MORE ABUNDANT

 

[follower of Christ]

Eternal hell vs eternal life

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article

To show that 'Hell' is a temporary place whose contents will finally be put into this eternal 'lake of fire' and that that place is 'perpetual'.
We do not teach about torment because we want to get even or revenge but only because we want to warn everyone we can about the truth and save them from going to that terrible place. Don't let false teachings cause you to not take this issue VERY seriously.

Supporting Evidence

1.0
Two eternal destinies

"And when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then will He sit upon His glorious throne.
All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' "
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me.' "
Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' "Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we did not minister to You?' "
Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither did you do it to Me.' "
And these shall go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.
(Mat 25:31-46 EMTV)

eternal
G166
αἰÎνιοÂ
aiÃ…Ânios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

No eternal punishment = No eternal life.
From that passage we see two distinct paths, one of which each of us will take depending on whether we are His child or not. It is also clear that the one path leads into the 'fire prepared for the devil and his angels', showing clearly that humans will at some point be put into the same place as Satan himself and the angels that decided to rebel against God with him.
Some use the argument that it doesnt SAY that people will burn forever, but it also doesnt specifically that they wont. Given the evidence as a whole, it seems much more likely that the people put in the lake of fire will face the same consequence that Satan and his angels will who are also there.

2.0
Resurrection to life or death

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(1Co 15:12-22 KJV)

So yes....ALL will be resurrected.
And what more is said about this resurrection ?

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(Joh 5)

ALL will be made alive..resurrected...some to eternal life, some to eternal condemnation.

2.5
The resurrection body

Now this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor can corruption inherit incorruption.
(1Co 15:50 EMTV)

But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what sort of body do they come?" Fool, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that will be, but a bare grain--perhaps wheat or some other grains. But God gives to it a body just as He desired, and to each of the seeds its own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is a different kind of flesh for men, and another flesh for beasts, another for fish, and another for birds. And there are celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:35-44 EMTV)

These who reign with Christ during the millennial reign quite apparently DO have their resurrection bodies since death has no power over them and they live thru the millenium with Christ.
Scripture shows that the rest were resurrected afterward and judgment taking place.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:4-15 KJV)

3.0
Torment
And here again, these PEOPLE who take the mark.
Notice the word is not 'kolasis' which is an argument used by some.

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 14:9-10 KJV)


The sameG846 shall(G2532) drinkG4095 ofG1537 theG3588 wineG3631 of theG3588 wrathG2372 of God,G2316 which is poured outG2767 without mixtureG194 intoG1722 theG3588 cupG4221 of hisG848 indignation;G3709 andG2532 he shall be tormentedG928 withG1722 fireG4442 andG2532 brimstoneG2303 in the presenceG1799 of theG3588 holyG40 angels,G32 andG2532 in the presenceG1799 of theG3588 Lamb:G721
(Rev 14:10 KJV+)

G928
βαÃανίζÉ
basanizÃ…Â
bas-an-id'-zo
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

Again, context of the whole SHOWS torment....

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
(Luk 16:28 KJV)


Luk 16:28 ForG1063 I haveG2192 fiveG4002 brethren;G80 thatG3704 he may testifyG1263 unto them,G846 lestG3363 theyG846 alsoG2532 comeG2064 intoG1519 thisG5126 placeG5117 of torment.G931

G931
βάÃανοÂ
basanos
bas'-an-os
Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:11 KJV)

And here we have the rich man in hell asking for water to cool his tongue.

and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. And even the dogs came and would lick his sores. And it came to pass that the beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom.

The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am suffering in this flame.'
(Luk 16:21-24 EMTV)

SUFFERING
G3600
ὀδÃ…νάÉ
odunaÃ…Â
od-oo-nah'-o
From G3601; to grieve: - sorrow, torment.

The words are clear that the rich man is suffering because of the 'flame' and wants to be cooled.
G5395
ÆλÌξ
phlox
flox
From a primary ÆλέγÉ phlegÃ…Â (to “flash†or “flameâ€Â); a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G2711
καÄαÈÃÂÇÉ
katapsuchÃ…Â
kat-ap-soo'-kho
From G2596 and G5594; to cool down (off), that is, refresh: - cool.

Sounds like a guy thats pretty hot, no ?
Hell and death have not yet been cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

4.0
Duration

We'll look at the words used to describe duration of 'eternal' and see how these words are used elsewhere to determine what the context shows.
Here is one of those words, aionios.

G166
αἰÎνιοÂ
aiÃ…Ânios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

G166
αἰÎνιοÂ
aiÃ…Ânios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Here we have PEOPLE who will burn forever who take the mark of the beast

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:11 KJV)

All who believe will live 'eternally' with Him.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal (g166)life.
(Joh 3:15 KJV)

And I give unto them eternal (g166)life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:28 KJV)

Here's TWO DIFFERENT words entirely to make the point.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal(g166) life:
(Rom 2:7 KJV)

immortality
G861
ἀÆθαÃÂÃία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.

Looks like 'eternal' (g166) there is simply in AGREEMENT with the idea
Heres one...

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (g166) Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(Heb 9:14 KJV)

We know the Spirit of God is 'eternal' supporting that g166 means precisely that.
Next we see that the glory of God is 'eternal'. If g166 means anything less than 'eternal' we would have to say that Gods glory is temporal.

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal(g166) glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
(1Pe 5:10 KJV)

Here we see that the gospel is 'eternal'.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting (g166)gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
(Rev 14:6 KJV)

And the Lords kingdom is also 'eternal' (g166)

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting (g166)kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:11 KJV)

And His covenant, also 'eternal'.

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting (G166)covenant,
(Heb 13:20 KJV)

We know God is 'eternal'...

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (g166) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:26 KJV)

Hebrews 9:12 shows that He has SECURED 'eternal redemption' for us.

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
(Heb 9:12 KJV)

the CONTEXT of 'eternal life' is just THAT...ETERNAL LIFE

And I give unto them eternal (g166) life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:28 KJV)

Gods word shows that that life is 'eternal' in the same way HE is by using the SAME greek word to describe it...aionios.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (g166) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:26 KJV)

5.0
Who will and who wont be saved...

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart one believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
(Rom 10:9-10 EMTV)

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:18 KJV)

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Mat 7:21-23 KJV)

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:14-15 KJV)

But the cowardly, and unbelieving, and sinners, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and drug users, and idolaters, and all who are false shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
(Rev 21:8 EMTV)

6.0
Old Testament Evidence

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and
some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:2 KJV)

H5769
עלנ/ עול×Â
‛ôlâm
BDB Definition:
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:23-24 KJV)

 

[follower of Christ]

Kolazo versus Kolasis

(taken from various internet discussions)

Internet source:
"The Greek word translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 means to curb, check, or restrain. The root idea is to put or place a person is a separated from God state and restrain him or her there forever. The word does not mean torture. Eternal torture is another gospel, false doctrine.

READERS, see this for yourself.
Internet source is using another word this word is DERIVED from, but it IS NOT the same exact word as the one he keeps claiming as explained below

Here is the actual word;

AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166
(Mat 25:46 KJV+)

This is the meaning. Notice that NEITHER scholar uses curb, check, or restrain as the Internet source falsely claims above.
Strong Definition:
G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.


Thayer Definition:
G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
1) correction, punishment, penalty

What the Internet source is doing is trying to mislead by claiming that this word that has its OWN meaning is exactly the same as the word it is derived from, which is this word
Notice that BOTH scholars agree about the intent of the word being curtail or curb.

Thayer Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished

Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

The first word kolasis appears here in the NT;

G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
punishment, 1
Mat_25:46
torment, 1
1Jo_4:18

The second word Kolazo appears here in the NT;

G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
punish, 1
Act_4:21
punished, 1
2Pe_2:9

Kolazo means 'curb, check, restrain'.
The word USED ....kolasis'....means PUNISHMENT / TORMENT
Not even Thayers shows them as meaning the SAME thing

G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty


Strong Definition:
G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

versus

G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished


Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

What is clear is that Kolasis is MUCH narrower in intent than the root word Kolazo.

And EVEN IF Kolasis DID mean the same thing as Kolazo, the word Kolazo DOES MEAN 'punish' and in no way nullifies 'torment' in eternal flames...it actual would confirm 'confinement' AND 'punishment' !

G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished


Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

Internet source:
"Similarly does the verb form of the word "kolasis" refer to torment? Nope. In 2 Peter 2:9 the idea is sinners will be kept in Hades until judgment, then they will be tossed into the lake of fire. So again the idea is rejection and separation. And finally, Acts 4:21 makes my case overwhelmingly. They let them go, finding no basis by which they could "kolasis in verb form" them. They let them go rather than "curb, check or restrain" them.

Actually the word in 2 Peter 2:9 isnt kolasis(G2851) but is kolazo(G2849) instead.
They are related, but they are not the same exact word.
Acts 4:21 isnt kolasis(G2851) either, but is also kolazo(G2849).

Its is apparent that kolasis(G2851) is FROM kolazo(G2849), but this doesnt make it the same exact word or the same exact intent.

kolasis(G2851)

Mat 25:46 AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166

There isG2076 noG3756 fearG5401 inG1722 love;G26 butG235 perfectG5046 loveG26 castethG906 outG1854 fear:G5401 becauseG3754 fearG5401 hathG2192 torment.G2851 (G1161) He that fearethG5399 is notG3756 made perfectG5048 inG1722 love.G26
(1Jn 4:18 KJV+)

G2851
Strongs
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.


G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty

VERSUS...

kolazo(G2849)

SoG1161 when theyG3588 had further threatenedG4324 them, they let them go,G630 G846 findingG2147 nothingG3367 howG4459 they might punishG2849 them,G846 becauseG1223 of theG3588 people:G2992 forG3754 allG3956 men glorifiedG1392 GodG2316 forG1909 that which was done.G1096
(Act 4:21 KJV+)

The LordG2962 knowethG1492 how to deliverG4506 the godlyG2152 out ofG1537 temptations,G3986 andG1161 to reserveG5083 the unjustG94 untoG1519 the dayG2250 of judgmentG2920 to be punished:G2849
(2Pe 2:9 )

G2849
Strongs
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.


G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished

Internet source seems to be correct about kolazÃ…Â and the intent there...but that isnt the same word that is in the end of Matthew.
Additionally the scholars have determined NOT to use 'curb, check or restrain' there in 2 Peter, so why is Internet sources choice of renderings more accurate than theirs?

Based on Matthew 25 and its use of kolasis which doesnt mean 'curb' , its easy enough to discern that the intent of 2 Peter is probably 'punish'...

And again EVEN IF Kolasis DID mean the same thing as Kolazo, the word Kolazo DOES MEAN 'punish' and in no way nullifies 'torment' in eternal flames...it actual would confirm 'confinement' AND 'punishment' !

G2849
κολ¶Ã‰
kolazÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished


Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

 

[follower of Christ]

Sorry to those who are unstudied enough to make absurd claims that scripture doesnt teach eternal torment, but regrettably it does.

 

[savagesoto]

Sorry to those who are unstudied enough to make absurd claims that scripture doesnt teach eternal torment, but regrettably it does.

There are many greek biblical scholars that would refute that article...lol

Oh im studied I can assure you...one day you may realize that just because someone disagrees with you doesnt mean they are wrong. Might be best to learn that lesson now.

 

[thisistheway09]

If you go back to ancient religions, even so far as Babylon itself they had beliefs in a hellfire. It is not taught in scripture. The Bible says: “God is love.†(1 John 4:8) Would a God of love inflict torture that even humans with any measure of decency find revolting? I find that very hard to believe.Romans 6;23 ASV For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The penalty of disobedience for Adam and Eve was death not eternal torment.

 

[Paidion]

F of C, to find out what a Greek word means, one should look up the word in many writings. Lexicons can be deceiving. Besides with a dozen of more "definitions" how can you know the primary meaning of the word? I find that the dozens of meanings which lexiconophers (newly coined word) produce are usually possible words that may be placed in translations to make sense.
It doesn't really help much to understand the word. I go also by the etymology of the word. I have studied Greek for several years, and my faith in lexicons has been steadily decreasing. I look up the words as they are normally used in the Septuagint (including the apocrypha), and in extra-biblical Greek writings.

The words which have been translated as “eternal punishment†are the Greek words “αἰÉνιο κολαÃι†Let’s consider “κολαÃι†first. This word was originally used for “prune†as in pruning plants. Plants are pruned by cutting off certain parts so as to correct the growth of the plant. “κολαÃι†was used in classical Greek in reference to a means to correct an offender. Look at any Greek lexicon, and you will find “correct†is given as one of its meanings.

The word is found only twice in the entire New Testament --- Matthew 25:46 in regards to the goats in Jesus’ parable, and I John 4:18 :

There is no fear in love, but complete love casts out fear. Fear has κολαÃιÂ. The one who is afraid is not completed in love.

What could the statement “Fear has punishment†possibly mean? I could understand “Punishment has fearâ€Â, but not “Fear has punishmentâ€Â. Do you know of anyone who has been punished because he is afraid?

However, I CAN understand “Fear has correctionâ€Â. The context of this statement indicates what the correction is. A state of fear in a person can be corrected when that person is completed in love.

Now back to Matthew 25:46 where the goats are to be sent into “αἰÉνιο κολαÃιÂâ€Â. If we agree that “κολαÃι†means “correctionâ€Â, then what would “eternal correction†mean? If a person were corrected eternally, the correction would never be completed, and thus the person would not be corrected at all!

Fortunately “αἰÉνιο†DOES NOT mean “eternalâ€Â. Indeed, it never means “eternalâ€Â. It is the adjectival form of the noun “αἰÉνâ€Â, which means “ageâ€Â. So, I suppose we could translate “αἰÉιο†as “ageyâ€Â, but as far as I know, the latter is not an English word.

The word was used in koine Greek (the Greek spoken from 300 B.C. to 300 A.D.) to refer to anything which is enduring. The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. The word seems to have been used as meaning “lasting†or “durableâ€Â.

Josephus in “The Wars of the Jews†book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to “αἰÉνιο†imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence lasted only three years.

But the clincher comes from the Homily of the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Ephesians, written by Chrysostum. He wrote that the kingdom of Satan “is αἰÉνιο (agey), in other words it will cease with the present αἰÉν (age).†So Chrysostum apparently believed that “αἰÉνιο†meant exactly the opposite to “eternalâ€Â! ---- that is “ lasting†but in this case also Å“temporary.â€Â

As I see it, the following would be a correct translation of Matthew 25:46

And they [the goats] will go away into lasting correction, but the righteous into lasting life.

Lasting correction is correction which endures. At some point it comes to an end. Lasting life is life which endures. But it just so happens that the lasting life we receive from Christ endures forever. But the idea of "forever" is not inherent in the word “αἰÉνιοÂâ€Â.

The true Greek word for "eternal" is "αἰδιοÂ". That word is found in the following verse:

Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. Romans 1:20

 

[epistemaniac]

If you go back to ancient religions, even so far as Babylon itself they had beliefs in a hellfire. It is not taught in scripture. The Bible says: “God is love.†(1 John 4:8) Would a God of love inflict torture that even humans with any measure of decency find revolting? I find that very hard to believe.Romans 6;23 ASV For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The penalty of disobedience for Adam and Eve was death not eternal torment.

.... other religions teach that there is a god, a supreme being.... so does Christianity... should we therefore dismiss the idea that "God exists" simply because other religions teach it? Of course not. So just because other religions teach the idea of eternal torment, it does not follow from this that eternal torment is either true or false, it really is irrelevant. This is the same basic mistake that everyone makes when trying to say that something that has become a part of Christian doctrine or theology is false because "the Greeks" held it, as if there is something monolithic that all Greeks agreed upon in the first place! Just because something is "Greek" it is no more automatically false then if it is Hebrew. This a classic example of the Genetic Fallacy, dismissing any idea or set of propositions based solely on their origin. The question is whether or not the Scriptures teach conscience eternal torment, not if some religion at some other time in history held something relatively similar to the belief of the doctrine of conscience eternal torment. It seems it does in fact do so, or that there is at least strong evidence for it. It would be passing strange that so many people believed the doctrine if it has absolutely no evidence at all! We may disagree as to what the evidence does in fact prove, but it is just nonsense to sy things like "there is absolutely no biblical proof for the doctrine of conscience eternal torment". What we do is disagree as to what the biblical text does say. For more on what I believe to be biblical proof as to the reality of eternal torment... see this topic....
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36822&start=15

further, saying things like

again...if Gods perspective of love and justice is that the majority of His creations that were UNWILLINGLY born into sin, will spend eternity in torture for not "getting the right set of beliefs in time"...then we as humans need to COMPLETELY scrap our ideals of justice being fair and love being unconditional...because that is not truly the God we serve in that case

does not help the discussion because all this is, is an emotional appeal based on one person's particular ideas and feelings as to what God's love must be like... but that hardly proves anything does it? Many people "feel" (and of course believe for certain reasons be they philosophical or biblical) as if the doctrine of eternal conscience torment is perfectly consistent with God's love, especially when we take into account the fact that God has other necessary attributes besides love, such as justice and righteous indignation towards sin. Perhaps someone has difficulty reconciling divine love with eternal conscience torment. But difficulty in reconciling 2 ideas is, again, no necessary reason to abandon a particular idea or doctrine, not does their appeal to emotion, or their poisoning the well with emotionally charged language.

Nevertheless, it surely does not follow that because of one person's ideas as to what God must be like, that we have to therefore totally scrap our ideas of justice or fairness. God is not subject to our standards of justice and fairness, we are subject to His. No one stands in judgment over God. As wise Job once said Job 9:32 (ESV) For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him, that we should come to trial together." No doubt God has done many things that a human would not have approved of, eg killing all the first born in Egypt, sending the various plagues, sending His Son to the Cross, etc etc etc... but once you go down the road of deciding for God what He can and cannot do you end up simply creating a God in your own image. As Mark Twain well said, "in the beginning God created man, and ever since that time, man has been trying to return the favor." And reasoning thusly, for some reason, people can come to all sorts of conclusions like "I do not think it is fair for persons to go to conscience eternal torment for any reason, therefore God would not think it is fair." Putting the reasoning in a very stark way, as I have, and should, I would hope, show the absurdity of it. Of course if someone thinks it is not biblical to think that God would send someone to an eternity of conscience torment, that is a different matter entirely. We can agree to disagree on matters like that, but we can't subject God to our standards for right and wrong. He is the moral law giver, we are not.

blessings,
ken