Hell = Harsh?

[Free]

Before you can even make such arguments, you need to define 'eternal torment'. Your argument certainly doesn't agree with mine.

Considering that the bible never used the phrase 'eternal torment', I need not bother trying to define it. You know the traditional view, why should I explain something that the bible doesn't use or support?

You just stated above:

"The importance, degree and meaning of degrees of punishment only make sense if there is an end result. Free, how exactly do you measure 'degrees of punishment' of flames for eternity? What, the fires that continually burn disembodied souls are a little hotter than others..some pinch a little more throughout eternity? Fry the eyeballs just a little more? Do you not hear how ridiculous this whole notion is??"

You obviously have a definition of it and I want you to make it clear. If you are going to setup such a strawman, you need to define your terms otherwise your argument is pointless.

 

[turnorburn]

guibox, please consider this from the book of Jude

Jude 1: 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[dubiduwap]

Hell

The biggest single problem when talking about hell is our ignorance. We see in part. God keeps angels in chains destined for eternal darkness. But what do we know of angels, or the concept of eternity? We must claim ignorance for the most part.

However i believe we must not reject the words of prohpecy or the Spirit of God speaking, saying "I am in torment in this fire, Lord, might you at least touch my tongue with water" ... I believe there is truth behind the Spirit's words here, as there is behind all the words of the Spirit of God.

There will be gnashing of teeth. I believe even the most minimal of pain that those separated from God will feel, will truly be exaggerated severely due to their knowledge of the glory of God at that time. When i was spanked as a child, i cried bitterly... but it was not the pain that made me weep. So also i believe is this severe pain of Hell that is prophesied. People think a broken heart is painful. Love lost. Surely they have written poems and songs describing the most painful thing possible in existence... torture, death. They would use these words. So also the Holy Spirit in Jesus speaks of a pain. I don't really know how to describe the pain of separation from God after seeing Him. But that it will be what Jesus prophesied. Even the mildest of fires/pain after seeing God in his purest form will be as sick as the pain Jesus spoke of.


"i sent them 2 shepherds, but they hated me"


"the Devil is your father" - Jesus

 

[savagesoto]

A just human judge would consider all the variables involved in what caused the criminal to act as they did(if they indeed did), including their mental health and age. Most Christians do not believe that the mentally handicapped or small children undergo infinite punishment in Hell, because the state of their mind keeps them from being capable of fully comprehending right from wrong and what Jesus did for them...but doesn't every person have something(s) that keep them from understanding those things with absolute clarity? Hasn't God allowed us all to be afflicted with sin, the very thing that pulls us from His truth? Did God merely allow man to fall into sin, with no intention to take such a "disease" and "mental insanity" into account on the day of judgment? The Bible tells us that God has more compassion and mercy than that, for what He allowed knowingly(La 3:31-33). I don't believe God will merely turn a "blind-eye" to that which caused us(the "sane")to make our flaws in belief and action, because we too posses a type of "insanity" of the soul, and a blindness of the heart and mind that only Jesus Christ can clean away from us at His appointed times.

 

[turnorburn]

Follow this link, your in for a surprise, I had a book in 1972 that spoke of these experiences but somehow lost the book. These are records of people nearing death and their testimonies..

http://www.theinvisiblechurch.ca/testim ... imony.html


turnorburn

*Post Note* If there isn't an eternal place of torment why did Jesus do what he did?

 

[guibox]

You obviously have a definition of it and I want you to make it clear. If you are going to setup such a strawman, you need to define your terms otherwise your argument is pointless.

My question was for you. How do YOU define different degrees of punishing for eternity? I was merely throwing out some examples, looking for clarification.

 

[guibox]

There will be gnashing of teeth. I believe even the most minimal of pain that those separated from God will feel, will truly be exaggerated severely due to their knowledge of the glory of God at that time. When i was spanked as a child, i cried bitterly... but it was not the pain that made me weep. So also i believe is this severe pain of Hell that is prophesied. People think a broken heart is painful. Love lost. Surely they have written poems and songs describing the most painful thing possible in existence... torture, death. They would use these words. So also the Holy Spirit in Jesus speaks of a pain. I don't really know how to describe the pain of separation from God after seeing Him. But that it will be what Jesus prophesied. Even the mildest of fires/pain after seeing God in his purest form will be as sick as the pain Jesus spoke of.

Yes, this is why the 'annihilation doesn't denote suffering and pain'. This is nonsense. The 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' denotes emotional pain and anguish. Realizing that they have separated themselves forever from the one that loves them would be torture enough even for a brief moment.

It seems that some people here WANT God to 'punish sinners' and would be disppointed were eternal torment not true. It's like being so vindictive at the dog that used to bite you that when it gets rabies, you want to see it suffer a bit more instead of simply shooting it dead. This is the attitude of so many on this forum and who believe in eternal torment.

For them, God's 'justice and mercy' doesn't really matter. They want a God of vengeance and seem to stop at nothing in twisting the scriptures to create a caricature of God that Satan must giggle in glee over.

 

[Free]

You obviously have a definition of it and I want you to make it clear. If you are going to setup such a strawman, you need to define your terms otherwise your argument is pointless.

My question was for you. How do YOU define different degrees of punishing for eternity? I was merely throwing out some examples, looking for clarification.

What is meant by degrees of punishment is length or amount of punishment. It could even mean what that punishment consists of.

And my original question to you was: since the Bible makes it clear that there are degrees of punishment, when do they occur? According to you, all the unrighteous are thrown in to the lake of fire and annihilated; that is their punishment. But that cannot be the case if there are degrees of punishment.

 

[savagesoto]

*Post Note* If there isn't an eternal place of torment why did Jesus do what he did?

Uhm, because had he not...we would be stuck in sin forever? had Christ not died, we could not be made right with God...he died SO that we could have everlasting life with Him...thats the whole point

 

[Captain Sarcastic]

Here's an interesting read for all the proponents of annihilationism on the board. Read it at your own peril:

http://www.votbg.org/chm001.htm