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Hell = Harsh?

  • Thread starter Thread starter johnparktv
  • Start date Start date
Ken I think yours missing the point. If Gods idea of fairness and justice is so far removed from ours, why would he command us to do things like "love our enimies" when he in fact does not himself? Why all the smokescreens about "showing love" and merely "making disiples when we should be snatching people up from Gods eternal wrath? Not only is eternal torture not truly biblical but it throws all the other commands and scriptures out of harmony
 
What is clear from Scripture is that there will be torment. When will this take place? And why would God torment them and then annihilate them? Why would he even raise them from the dead in the first place? Wouldn't it do just to leave them dead (if there is no soul or eternal torment)?
 
Free said:
What is clear from Scripture is that there will be torment. When will this take place? And why would God torment them and then annihilate them?

First of all, when we understand that the punishment at the end of time is really a secondary action, we see that the punishment occurs simultaneously with the 'cleansing of the heavens and earth where the 'elements will melt with fervent heat and all the works therein will be burnt up' ( 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:9). God is destroying sin to 'make a new heaven anda new earth for the former things are passed away.' (Revelation 21:1). Sinners merely get caught in the crossfire and go down with the ship of sin they have hung on to. This is where the allegorical language of punishment and torment comes into play. It won't be pleasant, but like everything else sinful it too will 'pass away'.

How could God's government and victory be fulfilled when he eliminates a sinful earth and all it's works, but keeps sinners alive for ever and ever??

Free said:
Why would he even raise them from the dead in the first place? Wouldn't it do just to leave them dead (if there is no soul or eternal torment)?

Simple. They haven't been judged yet and do not know the 'why' of their reason for getting what they are getting. See, this is the fallacy and illogistics of believing that when I die, I go to 'hell' where I am consciously tortured. The wicked have already gotten their reward. This is not biblical.
The scriptures make it clear that this occurs at the end of time, not at our physical death.

John 5:28,29 'Marvel not at this for the hour is coming that all that are in their grave shall hear His voice and come forth: Some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting damnation.

This is when the gifts and punishments are rewarded , not at our physical deaths.

Matthew 13:40-42 - As the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend and them which do iniquity. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 22:12 - And behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man according as his work shall be.

The wicked need to be resurrected to show where they went wrong so that 'every knee shall bow' in recognition of His righteousness, fairness and justice.
 
guibox said:
Simple. They haven't been judged yet and do not know the 'why' of their reason for getting what they are getting. See, this is the fallacy and illogistics of believing that when I die, I go to 'hell' where I am consciously tortured. The wicked have already gotten their reward. This is not biblical.
There is no fallacy on my end of things. If you want to talk about something illogical, then look at your position--that God will raise the unrighteous dead, judge them so that they will know the "'why' of their reason for getting what they are getting", and then annihilate them so that they will not remember the reason at all. The end result is the same if God would just have left them dead.

Annihilation makes no sense. I have stated before that it isn't punishment at all. It seems to me that punishment involves a knowing of why there is punishment. But annihilation is just a cessation of being; there is no knowing involved.

And it certainly makes little sense of Jesus' numerous warnings. If the punishment is temporary, near instantaneous it would seem from most who hold to the annihilation position, then Jesus' warnings are moot. How can 'hell' be such a terrible place if it just means you're dead?

guibox said:
The scriptures make it clear that this occurs at the end of time, not at our physical death.
Does it?

Luke 12:45-48, "45 But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more." (NKJV)

If all the unrighteous are burnt up or annihilated at the same time, then when does the above occur?
 
foxe008crusifiction.gif


Why is it when we speak we speak as if Jesus told us he came here for nothing?
What are we saved from I ask? A spanking on my bottom? Does anybody here
know just what Jesus went through to save us and why?

Heaven is eternal.
Hell is eternal.

"Period"

turnorburn

Annihilation is pure Poppy Cock! :naughty
 
Free said:
If you want to talk about something illogical, then look at your position--that God will raise the unrighteous dead, judge them so that they will know the "'why' of their reason for getting what they are getting", and then annihilate them so that they will not remember the reason at all. The end result is the same if God would just have left them dead.

Bu the rest of the universe would be curious, don't you think? Satan has been accusing God from the beginning of being unfair, vindictive and unjust, such a gesture shown that God settles all accounts fairly and nobody, including the wicked are left wonder. Whether they die later is moot.

Free said:
Annihilation makes no sense. I have stated before that it isn't punishment at all. It seems to me that punishment involves a knowing of why there is punishment. But annihilation is just a cessation of being; there is no knowing involved.

The same could be said about all forms of torture and capital punishment. Why not simply creep up behind someone and shoot them unknowingly? Why crucify them, put them on a rack or use electroshock treatment? After all, you know they are going to die. If you really wanted to punishment them so they would know about it, throw them to rot in jail. These things are still done because torturers and murderers know that from start until death, those being tortured DO know it and feel the pain. Somehow we are comfortable putting this sadism on the character of a loving God. It doesn't make sense.

God's role isn't to be the punisher of wrong doers. He is the sin destroyer coming to make all things right again. I'm not sure why we seem to think that God wants to punish sinners asnd see them suffer. It would seem that way based on how many here feel that it is not 'punishment' to be executed and that if they don't suffer, they will not realize their wrongs. I fail to see how eternal torment really shows God's love and mercy. After all, do they really need to be tormented for eternity to 'realize' their wrongs?

Pretty much overkill.
 
"Overkill"? There's a Scriptural term if I've ever heard one--NOT!. :halo Or at least a humanistic, failing attempt of human isogesis.

I like how you folks who oppose the concept of eternal torment never address this: would it be fair and right for an unrepentant sinner to be allowed into heaven, contaminating the saints--and this vast endless domain--so you can feel good about yourselves? Get real.

The thing you've got to remember: it's not YOUR heaven, God is not subject to YOUR interpretations or YOUR rules or your fallacious opinions. You've got to remember that the ETERNAL lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels. Since man is an immortal creature, he either heads to hell or heaven upon death. If he doesn't repent of his sin and trust in Christ as Lord and Savior, he's taking the fast-track to the nether regions of epic fail doom. God is not obligated to let him into HIS kingdom. If that idea makes you "boo-hoo," with all respect, get over it.
 
Captain Sarcastic said:
"Overkill"? There's a Scriptural term if I've ever heard one--NOT!. :halo Or at least a humanistic, failing attempt of human isogesis.

I like how you folks who oppose the concept of eternal torment never address this: would it be fair and right for an unrepentant sinner to be allowed into heaven, contaminating the saints--and this vast endless domain--so you can feel good about yourselves? Get real.
Yeah...dirty dirty sinners that didnt see the truth as clearly as you in this life going to heaven someday...wouldnt that just be terrible!? They dont deserve it even though we didnt either!!! I guess it doesnt make sense why Jesus went and ate with prostitutes and tax collectors...cuz he shoulda' been worried about being contaminated by those dirty sinners!

What you fail to realize is THEY WILL STILL BE PUNISHED AND JUDGED FOR THEIR DEEDS!!! They do not "get off the hook" nor will any of us for our works. And it seems that no matter how many times I or anyone else reminds people of that, it always falls upon deaf ears. Just because someone wasnt revealed to that Christ was the means of salvation before they died, doesnt mean they are any less deserving of heaven EVENTUALLY than you are.

Captain Sarcastic said:
The thing you've got to remember: it's not YOUR heaven, God is not subject to YOUR interpretations or YOUR rules or your fallacious opinions. You've got to remember that the ETERNAL lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels. Since man is an immortal creature, he either heads to hell or heaven upon death. If he doesn't repent of his sin and trust in Christ as Lord and Savior, he's taking the fast-track to the nether regions of epic fail doom. God is not obligated to let him into HIS kingdom. If that idea makes you "boo-hoo," with all respect, get over it.

I dont think you would be saying "get over it" if you believed you yourself or your loved ones were honestly going to Hell forever..its always the people that feel safe that seem to have no problem with this sense of "justice"

And youre right, its not MY or OUR heaven...its God and no hes not merely subject to our interpretations and "rules" (but maybe you should remind yourself of that while your mentioning that?).

Heres the thing though...if what WE think is Gods "fair and perfect justice and love" is that the majority of His creations are punished FOREVER for not merely happening across the right beliefs about Him in their lifetime...than what does that say about our own ideas of "love and justice"? More over...what does that say about God?

How could we as humans expect people to merely 100% of the time, believe something that was never proved to them as fact and ye suffer ETERNALLY for not finding the reasons to believe it? Why would God...the pinnacle of all justice and mercy and love...be any less fair? You say "because thats what the bible must say because my pastor said so" but have you honestly thought about it? if you NEVER were taught that...you would probably immediately see the contradiction and problem with this idea. Because quite simply, its moral and mental piracy. We only believe it and condone it because we think thats what the Bible MUST say...but this is not necessarily the case at all

Was it not God that made us in His "likeness and image"? If that is so...why would his ideals of justice and love be so RADICALLY removed from ours? Think about it...it doesnt make any sense.

Im not saying we must make God "make perfect sense" or confine him to our minds...but He DID bless us with minds to think and hearts to be convicted of...and I think that counts for something.
 
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Why do you think its called hell? Take God out of the picture, no more fresh air, no birds in the morning to wake you, no water to quench your thirst, not even a drop, "Nothing"

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 
Hi johnparktv ,

Having read some, but not all the replies in this tread and the OP, here are a few comments. What God has revealed is that there will be a division of this world into two separate kingdoms in the age to come. That these kingdoms will be mirror opposites presupposes what the reality of the age to come is like. Take away one kingdom (hell) by denial or refusing to consider it leaves the remaining kingdom (of heaven) as something other than the Kingdom of heaven God revealed.

While the apostle John said: God is light and in Him is no darkness at all, the apostle is not saying that there is no darkness but rather that there is no darkness in God. To say that there is no darkness (hell) in the new creation is simply to take a part of the new creation and claim that it represents the whole. The fact that the claim, that a part represents the whole, is a lie demonstrates that an exchange has taken place. The inability to accept the whole of reality (in this case heaven and hell) is not merely an intellectual or doctrinal preference but rather a more deep seated contention against the wisdom of God.

The OP weighs the temporal against the eternal. I commend you for doing this and, as the OP suggests, doing this a long time. Rather than trying to resolve this eschatological tension (by eg eliminating hell in our belief system) I advocate living with it as a thorn in the flesh! Could it be that the tension from the thorn (of hell) in the flesh is calculated by God to demonstrate something about His grace that could not be discovered by any other means? It is not sufficent to say His grace is sufficent without also appropriating the sufficiency of His grace in full in the consideration of hell, as well as evil we witness that is not of our choosing.

blessings
 
Captain Sarcastic said:
"Since man is an immortal creature, he either heads to hell or heaven upon death..

Yeah, still waiting for the biblical proof on this. I fail to see where it says ANYWHERE in the bible that 1) man is inherently immortal, 2) That even if the righteous receive eternal life, that the wicked do too.

The problem is that people come to the bible automatically assuming this, then read it into metaphorical passages like Revelation 14 and Mark 9 to bolster their opinion, then work outward from this eisegesis to come to their conclusions.

The Bible makes it clear that only the righteous receive 'immortality' and 'eternal life' and 'everlasting life'. The wicked, by direct contrast receive 'death', 'destroy', 'destruction', 'consuming away into smoke' being 'brought to ashes', 'perishing' and being 'burnt up' and 'brought to extinction'

Nowhere does it say that the wicked have immortality
 
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

T or B, do you really think the drop of water on Lazarus' finger would relieve Dives' tongue?

This is a parable couched within five other parables. The parable is based on a belief that the Jews of the day had. (Jewish historian, Josephus, described it in much the same way, but in greater detail.)

The purpose of the parable was to show to the Jews that even if a person could come back from the dead, they would not believe.
 
Ye, this parable is the most misconstrued text in the bible. This text has erroneously been applied to support eternal torment when it has nothing to do with it.

1) Fiery torment in 'hell' doesn't occur at our physical death, but at the end of the ages (Matthew13:40-43; John 5:28-29; Revelation 20:9-10).

Obviously, like the other imagery, 'flames' means something different, not literal flames.

2) The Bible doesn't support a literal interpretation of Luke 16 ANYWHERE in the Bible. Not the 'punishment after death' or 'disembodied souls in torment'

Rather, the Bible says the complete opposite: The dead are waiting in their graves, not in a conscious underworld for disembodied spirits. The wicked do not have immortality. They get their rewards at the end of time, not at physical death.

The evidence taken as a whole is overwhelming in this support. Luke 16 is the ONLY text that espouses this erroneous belief of life after death. Weigh the evidence. Let's not let our preconceived notions run away from us.

Let the Bible interpret itself instead of assumptive reasoning with no biblical support.
 
guibox,

The unrighteous will receive degrees of punishment just as the righteous will receive degrees of reward:

Luke 12:45-48, "45 But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more." (NKJV)

If all the unrighteous are burnt up or annihilated at the same time, then when does the above occur?
 
The importance, degree and meaning of degrees of punishment only make sense if there is an end result. Free, how exactly do you measure 'degrees of punishment' of flames for eternity? What, the fires that continually burn disembodied souls are a little hotter than others..some pinch a little more throughout eternity? Fry the eyeballs just a little more? Do you not hear how ridiculous this whole notion is?? Yet, neither method of punishing ends, so we can only measure it that someone suffers more for all eternity than others! Do you not see the utterly deplorable sadism in such a concept? And you are applying this to a loving, merciful, fair and just God??

When we understand that the wicked do not have immortality (and you can proof text all you want using such passages as Luke 12 or Luke 16, but you are not interpreting them according to the wholistic use of the bible which doesn't support your theories), and that there WILL be an end and we understand that Christ 'Will reward them according to as their work shall be' (Revelation 22:12),
we see that not everyone will be burnt up the same. Some may be punished longer according to their works, but eventually it will end. This parable fits even better with annihilation than eternal torment because,

1) the punishment only has meaning and impact, and can only be effectively measured in its finiteness. If everything is eternity, than no degrees really matter, it only shows extreme sadism to give further credence to such a prepostrous notion and

2) The details of the parable in Luke 12 don't measure up with eternal torment, considering that the wicked servants merely experienced greater punishment, not be tortured forever in the context.
 
guibox said:
The importance, degree and meaning of degrees of punishment only make sense if there is an end result. Free, how exactly do you measure 'degrees of punishment' of flames for eternity? What, the fires that continually burn disembodied souls are a little hotter than others..some pinch a little more throughout eternity? Fry the eyeballs just a little more? Do you not hear how ridiculous this whole notion is?? Yet, neither method of punishing ends, so we can only measure it that someone suffers more for all eternity than others! Do you not see the utterly deplorable sadism in such a concept? And you are applying this to a loving, merciful, fair and just God??
:yes :thumb
 
guibox said:
Captain Sarcastic said:
"Since man is an immortal creature, he either heads to hell or heaven upon death..

Yeah, still waiting for the biblical proof on this. I fail to see where it says ANYWHERE in the bible that 1) man is inherently immortal, 2) That even if the righteous receive eternal life, that the wicked do too.

The problem is that people come to the bible automatically assuming this, then read it into metaphorical passages like Revelation 14 and Mark 9 to bolster their opinion, then work outward from this eisegesis to come to their conclusions.

The Bible makes it clear that only the righteous receive 'immortality' and 'eternal life' and 'everlasting life'. The wicked, by direct contrast receive 'death', 'destroy', 'destruction', 'consuming away into smoke' being 'brought to ashes', 'perishing' and being 'burnt up' and 'brought to extinction'

Nowhere does it say that the wicked have immortality

You fail to see anywhere in the scriptures then how do you explain this... :naughty

Revelation 14: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 
guibox said:
Do you not see the utterly deplorable sadism in such a concept? And you are applying this to a loving, merciful, fair and just God??
When you put it the way you have, of course I can see that. But that is a strawman and they are always easy to argue against.

guibox said:
When we understand that the wicked do not have immortality (and you can proof text all you want using such passages as Luke 12 or Luke 16, but you are not interpreting them according to the wholistic use of the bible which doesn't support your theories), and that there WILL be an end and we understand that Christ 'Will reward them according to as their work shall be' (Revelation 22:12),
we see that not everyone will be burnt up the same. Some may be punished longer according to their works, but eventually it will end. This parable fits even better with annihilation than eternal torment because,

1) the punishment only has meaning and impact, and can only be effectively measured in its finiteness. If everything is eternity, than no degrees really matter, it only shows extreme sadism to give further credence to such a prepostrous notion and

2) The details of the parable in Luke 12 don't measure up with eternal torment, considering that the wicked servants merely experienced greater punishment, not be tortured forever in the context.
Before you can even make such arguments, you need to define 'eternal torment'. Your argument certainly doesn't agree with mine.
 
turnorburn said:
[You fail to see anywhere in the scriptures then how do you explain this... :naughty
Revelation 14: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

tob,

There are two questions that need to be asked with this:

1) Should we allow such a metaphorical passage in an apocalyptic book heaped with imagery determine first our theology? Do we take this passage and erive that the wicked MUST be immortal and interpet everything from that assumption when the Bible doesn't support it but blatantly contradicts it?

2) Is there a logical explanation solely from the bible that allows the bible to explain itself instead of contradicting it?

The answer to 1) is an emphatic NO! Rather we must take the whole of what scripture says on a topic and then interpret the more symbolic aspects of it. The wicked must be proved to have immortality first before one should take this literally. The answer to 2) is YES!

Linguistic and contextual Arguments

It is interesting that John uses these phrases 'no rest day or night', 'smoke ascendeth up forever', as these are images of complete and utter destruction used elsewhere in the bible and borrowed by John.

Let's look at Isaiah 34:10 on the literal destruction of Edom. Notice the parallels.
Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
And its dust into brimstone;
Its land shall become burning pitch.
It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke shall ascend forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.

Notice that this also is used in Mark 9:44-45

A fire that cannot be 'quenched' cannot be PUT OUT. Day and night it will burn but that doesn't mean it cannot GO OUT when all is finished being burnt (see also Jeremiah 17:27 for a temporary and finite use of 'unquenchable fire'). 'day and night' denotes continuity not eternal duration. Edom is not burning now. Neither is there smoke still 'ascending'. The phrase 'smoke shall ascend forever' is a symbol of 'completion' and 'finality'. The smoke ascends up and is gone 'forever'.

'forever' is used in the bible in applying to moral man to mean 'as long as life lasts', (See 1 Samuel 1:21,28 for merely one example) Hence the phrase in Revelation, 'tormented day and night forever and ever' means 'tormented continally as long as life lasts'.

This is the most valid explanation for two reasons:

1) This language is metaphorical and used in other parts of the bible to mean 'extinction'. We musn't ignore the clear borrowing of the NT from the OT and the biblical meaning of these words. We cannot say the Bible says 'The sky is blue' in one part, but in another part when it says 'The sky is blue', it really means 'The sky is red'

2) The wicked do not have immortality
 
Free said:
Before you can even make such arguments, you need to define 'eternal torment'. Your argument certainly doesn't agree with mine.

Considering that the bible never used the phrase 'eternal torment', I need not bother trying to define it. You know the traditional view, why should I explain something that the bible doesn't use or support?
 
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