HELL

[Catholic Crusader]

A sore spot for the unbeliever as well as a the Christian, "some Christians"
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/hellreal.htm In His Service, turnorburn

Correct. Hell is real. Please allow me to share what the Catechism Of The Catholic Church says about Hell:

IV. Hell
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... 3art12.htm

1033 - We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 - Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna," of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire," and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"

1035 - The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 - The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."

1037 - God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":

Father, accept this offering from your whole family. Grant us your peace in this life, save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen (Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 88).

 

[turnorburn]

Another question with an easy answer. Who holds they keys to heaven and hell?
You see I don't know anything about Catholic doctrine..

Thank you*

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Another question with an easy answer. Who holds they keys to heaven and hell?
You see I don't know anything about Catholic doctrine..

Thank you*
In His Service, turnorburn

Only God decides who goes to heaven or hell. That sounds like too easy of a response, but it is the only one.

 

[turnorburn]

One thing I remember, the Catholics say that it was Peter that held those keys

 

[mutzrein]

I believe that there is great value in learning from the past. Heck, the Bible is full of history...

As far as children burning in hell, especially those aborted, I expect you to provide scripture to back up that claim... good luck, and peace be with you.

Stove I agree with you if you are saying they do not burn in 'hell', but what do you say does happen to them?

 

[stovebolts]

Hello again Ed!

While it be true that scripture clearly states,
Romans 9:15-16 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

In this case, Context is key, as well as the below verses.

It is also true when David wrote,
Psalms 139:14-16 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

To state that aborted children (any infant for that matter) will burn in hell, is to grossly misunderstand who Hell was intended for as well as what type of people will be there. Simply put, children don't have the capacity to be held responsible for childish behavior as there is a clear biblical separation between childish behavior, and foolish behavior of a child.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

One thing I remember, the Catholics say that it was Peter that held those keys

No. I don't want to de-rail this thread into another subject. I will simply say that "the keys", in the Old Testament, were the symbol of office for the Prime Minister of the Davidic kings. So, since Jesus is the King of Kings and son of David, He establishes the fulfillment of this office with Peter. For more info, please go here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

But, God is the judge of all men. The pope is not God, although he seems like a nice guy. :D

 

[mutzrein]

Hello again Ed!

While it be true that scripture clearly states,
Romans 9:15-16 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

In this case, Context is key, as well as the below verses.

It is also true when David wrote,
Psalms 139:14-16 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

To state that aborted children (any infant for that matter) will burn in hell, is to grossly misunderstand who Hell was intended for as well as what type of people will be there. Simply put, children don't have the capacity to be held responsible for childish behavior as there is a clear biblical separation between childish behavior, and foolish behavior of a child.

Thanks Stove

You asked someone to give scriptural support for children burning in hell. Of course there is none so I agree with you on that point.

But what I was looking for was scriptural support for what I presume you believe - and that is that they go to heaven. What you have quoted of course speaks of the mercy of God but to my mind bears no relationship to children and infants 'inheriting' the kingdom of God.

Remember what Jesus said. No-one can see or enter the kingdom of heaven UNLESS they are born again.

Are you suggesting then that there is another way (besides being born again) - and therefore denying what Jesus said . . . or something else?

Blessings

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Ed,
There are several avenues I could go on this, and trust me, it could get very lengthy. After a bit of thought, I decided on this approach, though like I said, there are several that I believe could back my understanding.

One approach that I won’t go into much detail is simply this. There is a rule in scripture where one item outweighs another. It’s not that one item, value or commandment does not hold value, but if confronted with a decision on which value to uphold, one must make a decision which value holds a higher value given the circumstance.

I know that you know scripture and that your familiar with many of the stories in the Bible, so to shorten this post up I’ll just walk through a few that come to my head. First, Hezekiah offered sacrifices to God after the temple was built not only late, but the people did not prepare themselves for the event like commanded. However, God saw their hearts and accepted their worship.

Jesus was confronted in the desert by Satan, and Satan used valid scripture in his attempt to ensnare Jesus, but Jesus countered with scripture that held a higher standard. It’s not that the scripture Satan uses was invalid or correct, but rather, Jesus understood that there is somewhat of a pecking order when it came to understanding how to apply God’s law. I’m sure if you thought about this, you could come up with your own, like when David and his men ate the bread that was for the priests… I think you see where I’m coming from.

Another angle is this.
Kjv John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

If we wanted to use what I’ll call flatline textual gobble d gook (w/ the kjv), I believe the text clearly state’s “Manâ€Â. I do not see child, infant, or toddler in this text. Again, I see the word “Manâ€Â. Now, I’m sure some would argue this or that and even bring in comments like, “What about a woman†etc. It doesn’t really matter because I think Jesus actually anticipated some argument like this and goes on to say,

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

So, what do we know? First, we know that we can’t box in the Spirit and God will send the spirit where he sends His Spirit. In other words, if we think we’ve got God all figured out, well…there’s always an exception to the rule. (I could also write extensively on this, such as Ruth and her ethnic background vs. what the law said, Job etc.)

We also know from scripture that a fetus can be filled with the Holy Spirit well before the fetus is born (John the Baptist for example).

We know that YHVH is a God who values mercy over wrote rites or rituals.

The list could go on, and I know this is getting long, so let me just end with these two sets of verses that seem pretty concise in the matter.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:13-15 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

Is there anything you would like to dive deeper into, or have me explain with a bit more detail?

I’ll look forward to your comments.

Jeff

 

[mutzrein]

Thanks Jeff

It's been a long day ... and evening and I'm just about nodding off in front of the PC. My work load is increasing and so I may not get back to this for a day or so. And I need to give consideration to what you have said before responding.

Blessings
Ed

 

[stovebolts]

No problem Ed, I completly understand since I've found myself in the same boat many times.

While I'm at it, I'll apologize for such a haphazard reply in my earlier post. I wrote it in a hurry and didn't really have time to proof read it. It was kinda one of those off the hip replies. Just let me know if you want me to clear up anything since I've got the bad habit of thinking that people can read my mind, and what sounds clear to me, doesn't make since to those reading it.

Peace and Grace,

Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

So, Jesus is speaking literally, then figuratively? Do you really believe that there will be eternal worms?

He was stating a fact, that hell is real. However, our human minds can't really comprehend the terrible torments of the place. It's much like how he describes the Kingdom of God (another reality) using images aka parables.

I do believe that there are demons who could take the form of giant worms. They will live forever and they torment people. However, worms would seem rather nice compared to some things that demons do.

OOooooookay. . . . . . . . . . . . I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that, too. I choose to see much of this language as figurative. Much of what Jesus said was in parable form, or in other words, . . . . figurative language, not literal.

Hi Orion,

I've been noticing in other threads that refer to 'hell', yet I have not heard your take on what 'hell' is.

I believe that this thread would be a great place to discover your belief's in regard to hell. I've got an idea what you don't believe in regard to hell, but I'm not sure what you believe about hell. For starters, what do you say 'hell' is and who do you believe will be there. I think this is a fair starting point and please, don't worry about your views, I won't bite. Promise.

 

[guibox]

To understand the language of 'worm dieth not' in Mark 9, we must go back to the reference it was taken from in Isaiah 66.

Isaiah describes the utter destruction of God's enemies at the end of time when the children of God can look out at the destruction. What they see are 'corpses of men'. The Hebrew usage of 'worms' and 'unquenchable fire' were metaphorical descriptions of utter destruction. A worm's job was to devour dead bodies. A worm that doesn't die (as far as it's function goes) and a fire that can't be quenched will do their work uninterrupted until nothing is gone. That doesn't mean that the worm is immortal and the fire will burn eternally.

This goes against the entire mindset of judgement and the afterlife the Hebrews had (See David's take in Psalm 37).

These metaphorical usages were borrowed by Mark to denote the destruction of God's enemies at the end of time as well. To make worms and fire 'devour the immortal souls of wicked men' for eternity is a gross misapplication of the Isaiah reference and to read into the verses what cannot be proven: that the wicked man has an inherent immortal soul that can be punished for eternity in hell.

 

[turnorburn]

Very nice using Isaiah's description of worms and hell, but the question remains doesn't it? what
do "you" believe?

 

[guibox]

Very nice using Isaiah's description of worms and hell, but the question remains doesn't it? what
do "you" believe?

Why, I believe Isaiah and the rest of the Bible writers who believe that man was a wholistic being and not a dualistic being like the Greeks. I believe:

1) That the language used by traditionalists to support eternal torment (Mark 9:44-45; Revelation 14:10,11) is metaphorical in borrowing from the OT which uses the SAME language to denote temporary duration, and complete and utter annihilation and destruction (Isaiah 34:10-11; Jeremiah 17:27; Isaiah 66:24;Psalm 37)

2) I believe that wicked man does NOT have an immortal soul for 'immortality' and 'eternal life' is a gift from God to the righteous. (John 3:16; John 6:40-47; Romans 6:23)

 

[turnorburn]

Well there we have it, seems you have issues with the almighty and nobody here can help you with that. That's between you and him...

 

[mutzrein]

Hi Jeff – sorry about the delay. Time has been against me. Actually I’d written quite a lot on this as a response to you but have decided to scrap it and take a different approach.

As I pointed out, Jesus made a statement which was black and white. UNLESS man is born again he cannot see or enter the kingdom of God. Now I don’t want to get into a discussion about one scripture outweighing another or what ‘man’ means. You know, scripture is not something to be academically analysed as man is inclined to do, in his quest for understanding of spiritual things. It is written as a parable is written - and understanding can only be through revelation of the spirit of God. Perhaps the greatest futilty of an academic study of scripture is the intellect. Why? Because the very nature of God is spirit and we are trying to fathom the things of the spirit by means of the flesh.

I will say this though. The word ‘man’, where not specifically speaking of a man means ‘mankind’ and children are just part of mankind. As far as giving John the Baptist as an example of a fetus being filled with the Spirit, surely you jest. This is not an example. It is the one and only time it happened. John the Baptist was chosen by God to prepare the way for Christ. He was not just an example of ANY man. He was Elijah. And the spirit of God came upon those chosen by God to be his ‘voice’. Jesus made it clear that the Spirit, while being ‘with’ man prior to him returning to the Father would not be IN HIM unless and until he returned to the father.

It is this Spirit of Life that enables man to live forever and it was Christ that made the way for this to happen when He defeated death. There is no other way.

So let me ask you this question Jeff. If it is the Spirit of God that gives man life (scripture says he has passed from death to life), what is it that enables one who does not know Christ (and therefore has not been born of the Spirit) to live in hell forever?

Ed

 

[turnorburn]

I've learned something very important in my walk with Christ, I don't think like he does. The book of Job is my favorite book on ways to get to know him, and example...
Chapter 38

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

Enjoy,
turnorburn

I thought you might like this...

 

[Biblereader]

The website is marvelous! Refreshingly pure and Godly in it's message.

I want to applaud you for giving us this great site to read.

 

[Biblereader]

I reject the notion that, just because someone chooses not to believe in that which they can't see, and that has no evidence (empiracal) of, that it means that they choose Hell, by default.

It is so, though.

There is ONE way to Heaven, through Jesus Christ, the Saviour.
Trust Him today. Ask Him to save you. Here is your chance, to escape Hell.

Read Romans 10:9-12

Admit you are a sinner, and accept the FREE gift God has given you, through His only begotten
Son, Jesus Christ.