HELL

[turnorburn]

That's your answer where by they condemn themselves. "They choose not to believe" Therefore
the wrath of God abides upon them. And that's 100% scripture, you must believe if not* :
We were all unbelievers at one time it was our faith that saved us. I can't change what God has said even if I could I wouldn't. His Son paid a horrible price for our salvation," They turned him into an unrecognizable piece of human flesh"...

In His Service,
turnorburn

I reject the notion that, just because someone chooses not to believe in that which they can't see, and that has no evidence (empiracal) of, that it means that they choose Hell, by default.

It is so, though.

There is ONE way to Heaven, through Jesus Christ, the Saviour.
Trust Him today. Ask Him to save you. Here is your chance, to escape Hell.

Read Romans 10:9-12

Admit you are a sinner, and accept the FREE gift God has given you, through His only begotten
Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Orion]

Hi Orion,

I've been noticing in other threads that refer to 'hell', yet I have not heard your take on what 'hell' is.

I believe that this thread would be a great place to discover your belief's in regard to hell. I've got an idea what you don't believe in regard to hell, but I'm not sure what you believe about hell. For starters, what do you say 'hell' is and who do you believe will be there. I think this is a fair starting point and please, don't worry about your views, I won't bite. Promise.

Hello to you, StoveBolts.

What I have come to understand about "hell" has various facets. I think "hell", as used in ancient Hebrew texts (Old Testiment) was probably synonomous to "the grave", where a body is laid. I've seen that aspect discussed on several threads in this and other Christian forums. It wasn't until later in history that "hell" took on some sort of scary firey place filled with all sorts of evil creatures. Dante's Inferno probably had a LOT to do with that concept. Then we have the book of Revelation. There is very little in that book that I would consider literal. There is so much fantasy there that I don't believe any of us can know how to interpret it, if it was even "a vision from God". Too many pictures are obviously metephorical, in the extreme, and since none of us where there to see these "visions", none of us can make any claims to know what Revelation means. . . . . again, IF it was "a vision from God". So, I don't hold to the idea of "hell" in Revelation as being literal anymore than the many other fantastic pictures that book generates.

As for REAL Hell, . . . . I think we create it quite well here on Earth. Corrupt governments that allow their people to starve, governments that pull their people into wars (probably in some subconsious form of brain washing), the selfishness of mankind and the aftermath of actions, the effects of greed, hate, LUST. . . . . . .how many young girls have found themselves in a hell-ish situation because of the lust of some disgusting man? People like to blame Satan for the actions of people, . . . .but man does these things all on his own and does them, sadly, very well.

As for the concept of "people spending an eternity of punishment", . . . . that's not justice but cruelty with no purpose. Of course, there ARE those who believe that there WILL be a purpose for them eternally being punished, . . . .and that being. . .for the pleasure of God. Taking pleasure in another being's pain and suffering is an evil trait! This is why I don't believe many of the Christian doctrines of hell because regardless of "justice needing to be served", a TRULY righteous judge would not be so vandictive, which I don't believe God to be. Punishment may be necessary, but you move from "punishment" to "torture" when there is no plans for rehibilitation.

 

[turnorburn]

I had a feeling this would happen, this topic raises a lot of

What it boils down to is quite simple does one accept Gods word and what Jesus says or just the opposite believe mans word and what he says...

 

[Orion]

I had a feeling this would happen, this topic raises a lot of

What it boils down to is quite simple does one accept Gods word and what Jesus says or just the opposite believe mans word and what he says...

Well, that goes back to the topic of whether (and how much) it IS God's words or mans (and them speaking for God). We have no evidence of divine inspiration of all the texts. We have the word of the words of men saying it is true. But that is all discussed in another thread and probably should be left IN that thread. I only bring it up because I don't have the chains of words from a book holding me prisoner to it, especially when a concept seems more "men wanting revenge on their wrong doers" than a loving God. This can be seen in Revelation where the saints (according to the AUTHOR of the words, a man) are complaining that the men who killed them need to be killed themselves. As if their mortal bodies, and their destruction, requires some sort of satisfaction. . . .even though they SHOULD be "rejoicing around the throne".

 

[Vic C.]

Well, that goes back to the topic of whether (and how much) it IS God's words or mans (and them speaking for God). We have no evidence of divine inspiration of all the texts. We have the word of the words of men saying it is true. But that is all discussed in another thread and probably should be left IN that thread.

There is inspiration in His word; I feel it as I am reading it. It is a Living Word in a certain spiritual sense; I feel that also as I study. Some things aren't so clear at times and then a time comes when things become crystal clear for me.

The question of whether or not Scripture is inspired isn't the issue, the issue is proper exegesis and whether or not this exegesis is Spirit inspired or inspired through some sort of practical rationale. In other words, is it influenced by Spirit, tradition or intelligence?

I only bring it up because I don't have the chains of words from a book holding me prisoner to it, especially when a concept seems more "men wanting revenge on their wrong doers" than a loving God. This can be seen in Revelation where the saints (according to the AUTHOR of the words, a man) are complaining that the men who killed them need to be killed themselves. As if their mortal bodies, and their destruction, requires some sort of satisfaction. . . .even though they SHOULD be "rejoicing around the throne".

I must stress Revelation is highly metaphorical and that fact must be taken into account before one hangs their "doctrinal hat" on anything in Revelation. Again, proper exegesis is in order here; especially here!

BTW, Revelation 6:10 comes before 7:17 and 21:4; so these "souls" have every right to ask God to avenge their deaths.

 

[Orion]

I guess my opinion of these folks, in 6:10, should be less of what THEY want and more about saving the souls of those still alive on the earth, . . . since it is supposed to be their "last chance to be saved". . . . since apparently no one can ask forgiveness when they depart their earthin shell. I don't think they have any right to call for anyone's blood. And IF these are people who are supposed to love God/Jesus, . . . . regardless of their physical death, they should still have the same attitude towards them before they died. What, just because they're killed as martyres, they get to be petty? :-? They're at the throne of God, for pete sake! I'd say to them, "grow up and see the big picture".

 

[Vic C.]

They are asking for nothing they weren't already promised.

I guess my opinion of these folks, in 6:10, should be less of what THEY want and more about saving the souls of those still alive on the earth, . . . since it is supposed to be their "last chance to be saved". . . . since apparently no one can ask forgiveness when they depart their earthin shell. I don't think they have any right to call for anyone's blood. And IF these are people who are supposed to love God/Jesus, . . . . regardless of their physical death, they should still have the same attitude towards them before they died. What, just because they're killed as martyres, they get to be petty? :-? They're at the throne of God, for pete sake! I'd say to them, "grow up and see the big picture".

You didn't quote grasp what I said about Revelation, did you? ;-)

I must stress Revelation is highly metaphorical and that fact must be taken into account before one hangs their "doctrinal hat" on anything in Revelation. Again, proper exegesis is in order here; especially here!

You're talking as though these souls are real, physical people having a conversation with God. Plus, They are NOT asking God to avenge them; God has already promised His vengeance over and over again in the Bible.

Psa 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
Psa 58:11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

Psa 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
Psa 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.

These souls know vengeance is God's.

Psa 94:1 O LORD God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, show thyself.

Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompense; he will come and save you.

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

They are not asking God to avenge. They are asking God, when is HE going to fulfill His promise to avenge? They know once this happens, all will be fulfilled.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Big difference Orion. No offense, but you going in the wrong direction. Instead of picking apart the pieces to what many consider a puzzle, you need to put forth the effort of putting the pieces together.

 

[Orion]

Thank you for that explianation of the "vengence" thing. Ultimately though, I see that part of Revelation as metephorical, just like the rest of it. Part of me even WONDERS if Revelation should have even been in the Bible. :-?

 

[Vic C.]

Thank you for that explianation of the "vengence" thing. Ultimately though, I see that part of Revelation as metephorical, just like the rest of it. Part of me even WONDERS if Revelation should have even been in the Bible. :-?

So did Martin Luther. 8-)


This is a sidebar and not to be discussed here. It can be discussed in End Times Forum if someone cares to comment.
Read the fourth, fifth and sixth chapters of Zechariah (check here for explanation of a "flying roll" http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkezec5.htm). Then read the first 5 or 6 chapters of Revelation and notice the similar symbolic and overall writing styles found in apocalyptic-like writings.

Enjoy!

 

[stovebolts]

Hello Ed,

Don't worry about the delay; I've not much time myself and won’t be able to get back until early next week.

As far as my "Academic" approach to the word ‘man’, it was tongue in cheek. That is why I posted

Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must all be born from above. The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.â€Â

As far as your response on John the Baptist receiving the Holy Spirit at birth, I rather enjoyed the way in which you delineated your perspective, well done. However, while I am not in disagreement with your synopsis, it is not enough to persuade me that an unborn child cannot receive the Holy Spirit at birth, or that God would fail to redeem an innocent child. To make the leap that God would confine his Spirit to a particular process would, I believe, contradict scripture in many, many areas and I find more support in God’s word that children do indeed go to heaven, than the scriptures that are distorted to say the contrary.

So let me ask you this question Jeff. If it is the Spirit of God that gives man life (scripture says he has passed from death to life), what is it that enables one who does not know Christ (and therefore has not been born of the Spirit) to live in hell forever?

Well then, I believe that this could get rather large and detailed, and honestly, I can’t say that I’ve got the full answer. Regardless, this is what I can say, though incomplete. I do hope that I can find time to expound at a later date.

To simply sum my view, I believe that there is a difference in knowing Christ, and “knowing†Christ. Keep in mind, that Jesus’ last name was not Christ, but rather, Jesus was / is the Christ. That is to say, Jesus was the deliverer promised to Israel, which is analogous to the role of Moses where a people were freed from oppression and bondage, yet there were those that thought it much better to be in bondage, than to experience the struggles of freedom. This really isn’t that hard of a concept and one only need look to those that have become institutionalized within the State or Federal Penitentiary to see that this is a true statement.

To break this down, I do not believe that this is entirely about ‘knowing’ the Christ, as even the demons ‘knew’ the Christ. Scripture states the whole earth is full of God’s glory, and it is we, with our sinful nature that misses, and falls short of experiencing that Glory for it is we who have sinned and like those that have been institutionalized, it is we who do not accept the freedom offered through the blood of Christ. Thus, I find that when Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the lifeâ€Â, I believe that there are those, for whatever reason have decided to, or do not have the courage, support or strength to pull them selves out of the mire, while there are also those that thrive in false authority, or strength found within the confines of chaos.

Though incomplete, I do have to go. Have a good weekend!

P.S. I found out that our mamma sheep gave birth to three baby lambs this morning!

 

[turnorburn]

As it is with anyone, me included, I had an inability to read what the bible said and make sense of it.
The answer as I found out lies here in I Corinthians 2...

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You must be born again, a birth that takes place the moment you settle things up with God, and give him him your life without reservation, 100% that is if you desire to commune with him, have joy unspeakable and full of glory, or face the eternal punishment that every unbeliever will receive.

The only thing to suffer then is loss of pride, with me I did it thus, I said Lord I'll give you my life in exchange for a new one even if it means you have to kill me to do it.

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[Biblereader]

AMEN! That's the WHOLE crux of the matter.
Do you believe, or not?

I had a feeling this would happen, this topic raises a lot of

What it boils down to is quite simple does one accept Gods word and what Jesus says or just the opposite believe mans word and what he says...

 

[stovebolts]

As for REAL Hell, . . . . I think we create it quite well here on Earth. Corrupt governments that allow their people to starve, governments that pull their people into wars (probably in some subconsious form of brain washing), the selfishness of mankind and the aftermath of actions, the effects of greed, hate, LUST. . . . . . .how many young girls have found themselves in a hell-ish situation because of the lust of some disgusting man? People like to blame Satan for the actions of people, . . . .but man does these things all on his own and does them, sadly, very well.

I agree. Let me ask you a question, Why doesn't God stop all this evil on earth now?

As for the concept of "people spending an eternity of punishment", . . . . that's not justice but cruelty with no purpose. Of course, there ARE those who believe that there WILL be a purpose for them eternally being punished, . . . .and that being. . .for the pleasure of God. Taking pleasure in another being's pain and suffering is an evil trait! This is why I don't believe many of the Christian doctrines of hell because regardless of "justice needing to be served", a TRULY righteous judge would not be so vandictive, which I don't believe God to be. Punishment may be necessary, but you move from "punishment" to "torture" when there is no plans for rehibilitation.

I understand, however, I don't believe most Christians think that God finds pleasure in punishing sin.

 

[Orion]

1. I agree. Let me ask you a question, Why doesn't God stop all this evil on earth now?

2. I understand, however, I don't believe most Christians think that God finds pleasure in punishing sin.

1. I have no idea why God allows evil to thrive so prevelantly on the earth. God allows that which he CAN stop, which means there is a place given for fault. When someone can stop something bad from happening, but doesn't, they hold some of the guilt for it taking place. Now, there may be a reason why God doesn't step in when it would be very good for him to (obviously not an complete list):
a. He is an impersonal viewer of this experiment he started.
b. He is unable or unwilling to make someone do or not do something.
c. He chooses to let us live out our lives, creating our own suffering, in a way to teach others.
d. The worst posibility, . . . He creates multitudes of people, creates an environment conducive to "sin" (by making many aspects of sin VERY enjoyable), places rules against those acts (labeling them "sin"), then hopes to have a few select people obey it enough so he can gain the worship of those who obey, . . . . .the other misbehavors to be punished for ever.

2. Talk to JayR about the topic of God finding pleasure in the suffering of poeple in Hell!

 

[stovebolts]

1. I have no idea why God allows evil to thrive so prevelantly on the earth.

Then all else is a mute point. If you don't know why God allows evil to exist, then your conclusion will / and does reflect this lack of knowledge.

Paul Prays,
Philippians 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

Beign a critic does not bring about love, and knowledge comes through love. After all, God is love, and all knowledge and wisdom is God's, regardless of where one finds it. BTW, the Bible is a good starting point. :wink:

 

[turnorburn]

The question, "why does God permit evil" that's an easy answer. Because we have
chosen the way of evil. He would help but we prefer evil, now think about it
before saying that's absurd. Our schools, "get out!" our churches, get out"!
our country, "get out" Now this time think before you answer.

 

[mutzrein]

Scripture tells us that God is the God of the living - not the dead.

And Jesus is the shepherd of his sheep.

What do the things that have nothing to do with the living or those who are not Christ's have to do with God? God is not their father, so why should he intervene?

 

[turnorburn]

Have a listen to This, it sounds authentic enough, Christ died to save us from
this place. I'm sure there will be opinions, so lets hear a few.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avah_ZsZ ... re=related

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[DM]

A typical orthodox Christian perspective of hell is based on old traditions and poor information, in my opinion.

As has been mentioned before, the word translated into English as "hell" and used some 13 times by Jesus (and once by James) in the New Testament, is from the Greek word "gehenna". Gehenna, also known as the valley of the son of Hinnom (or Ben Hinnom), was the municipal dump outside of Jerusalem during the days of Jesus' ministry. It's a first century place name. If anyone from outside the local area, unfamiliar with "gehenna" had been listening to Jesus, they would have nudged the person next to them and said, "It's better to enter the kingdom of heaven with one eye than to have both eyes and be thrown into . . . where?"

The prophet Jeremiah spoke on behalf of the God of Israel, who had this to say: "They (the sons of Judah) have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire," (Jeremiah 7:31a).

The idea of people being "burned in the fire" (as in, the orthodox view of hell), was rooted in the reality that many of the ancient Jews, were, in fact, doing just that. And what does God say of this practice of burning their children in the fire?

" . . . which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind." (Jeremiah 7:31b).

In other words, the orthodox view of "hell" (gehenna) as being a place where wicked people go when they die to suffer eternal conscious torment through burning, is an idea foreign to the God of Israel. God could not have even conceived of such a thing, according to the testimony of Jeremiah.

Moreover, given that "gehenna" is a first-century place name, it is no more translatable into English than trying to translate "Albuquerque" into the Hindi language. Jesus' use of "gehenna" as a picture of judgment, speaks of the total destruction awaiting the unbelieving world on that DAY of judgment. If one presumably goes either to heaven or hell when they die, then the resurrection becomes an afterthought, and an even welcome reprieve for those who supposedly went to their reward or punishment "forever".

As Christians, we need to abandon the unbiblical, ungodly doctrine of "hell" as it's been handed down by the fear-mongering overlords of this earth, servants of Satan, who historically often tend to hold the highest offices of religion and politics. Likewise, we should soberly embrace the terrible judgment of God which will be the final and ultimate end of those who practice wickedness and have no love, for what it is . . . a terrible end in and of itself. God will destroy the wicked. The wages of sin is death, not "life", in hell. (Romans 6:23)

Just my take on things of course. Feel free to disagree.

Grace and peace.
David

 

[Orion]

*deleted after reading DM's post* :wink: