HELL

[Orion]

DM, . . . . . . . excellent post, sir!! You have given me hope.

 

[turnorburn]

How does this work, am I supposed to report you jolly old souls for stealing this thread? Your choice :wink:

 

[Orion]

Have a listen to This, it sounds authentic enough, Christ died to save us from
this place. I'm sure there will be opinions, so lets hear a few.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avah_ZsZ ... re=related

In His Service,
turnorburn

Of course it isn't real. How could anyone believe that recording is real? :-?

 

[turnorburn]

Now how would you know that? Ive been a Christian or 37 years and I didn't
know that. Mind if I ask where you got that information?

 

[stovebolts]

Hello turnorburn,

Can you tell me what you believe the gates of hell are as they are refered to in Matthew 16:18 at the time which they were spoken to St. Peter?

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[turnorburn]

An onslaught of Satan's hordes sat within the gates waiting to attack Christs church, that's how I visualize it, how do you?

 

[Orion]

Now how would you know that? Ive been a Christian or 37 years and I didn't
know that. Mind if I ask where you got that information?

Who is this comment directed to, and to which post? :-?

 

[turnorburn]

You must think this is some sort of a sick twisted game your playing God knows. :

Its your post, if you think by laughing at the seriousness of this thread will make it go away, your sadly mistaken. People enter hell at a phenomenal rate, will you be there to help or hinder the problem? God knows

 

[stovebolts]

An onslaught of Satan's hordes sat within the gates waiting to attack Christs church, that's how I visualize it, how do you?

Sure, I can see it that way, let me just post this snipit from other site and please tell me if you see any value in it and how it would have been taken when Jesus spoke these words to Peter.

http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcript ... _27-30.htm

In the religion of the Ancient world, they served fertility gods. The view was that the fertility gods, male and female, had sex, rain was the sperm. The crops and lambs and the babies were the fruit. Then the gods went away to the underworld and it stopped raining, and there was the dry season. The underworld in Greek is called Hades; in Hebrew it is called Shoel. This was a dark watery place under the earth. So wherever there was a body of water or water coming out of the earth, they viewed it as a gate to the underworld. And every year in the spring the gods go into the cave and down to the underworld, and if the people worship them right, they will come back from the underworld copulate, and they will have fertility.

Although I disagree with their association between Shoel and Hades, the rest is pretty accurate IMHO.

Caesarea Philippi was a town of about 20,000. Nearby was a Temple of Augustus, built by Herod the Great, and an ancient shrine dedicated earlier to Baal and then to Pan. Next to the Temple of Augustus was the open air shrine to Pan. Pan is the shepherds fertility god so they worshiped him outdoors. Augustus' temple was right in front of the cave and next to the cave was the shrine of Pan cut into the rock. In front of it was the open air platform where Pan was worshiped. This was the world center of Pan worship. In a cleft cut out of the rock was the statue of Pan. Pan was depicted as a man with the horns, ears, and legs of a goat. During the religious ceremony the priest and priestess of the Pan cult would copulate in front of the crowd of worshipers. Then came pandemonium where all the worshipers would have sex. So there would be thousands of people having sex; male to female, male to male, female to female, and with goats. This was an evil area, and the Jews who loved God wouldn't go anywhere near this place. They called this place the "gates of hades" and the "rock of the gods," because all these pagan gods were on the face of the cliff.

Sex with goats! Ouch! What was Jesus doing there!

So, what do you make of this turnorburn? Have you ever studied Hades?

As a side note, Redemptive history is full of polythiestic religions infiltrating Israel. Does history repeat itself? I think that the statment Jesus makes is an extreemly loaded statment!

 

[turnorburn]

I never have been the sort to make things complicated, there are hundreds of books that speak of Hades, Sheol, the Great Gulf Fixed. With that said I'll say this,
I have always believed in keeping things simple, why drag mans interpretations into it, because that's what they are. A preacher preaching from the pulpit introduces his favorite book on these matters before he continues. Is this supposed to add weight to his argument? I go by experience, have you had an experience
of hell?

 

[biblecatholic]

, why drag mans interpretations into it,

and you're not a man(man's interpretation)?

 

[turnorburn]

After further consideration I've decided this will be better served by breaking off with this conversation if you will.

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." -Titus 3:9

I don't believe we should ever throw people away by giving up on on them, but God does NOT want us wasting our time trying to win over stiff-necked unbelievers when there are so many people in this world waiting to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is what the Apostle Paul meant here in Titus 3:10-11. Our time is short upon the earth and we must use our resources wisely for God. Arguing only sheds more heat than light when sharing the Bible with people. It's ok to argue if the conversation is beneficial, but trying to reason with belligerent people is simply a waste of time. I simply won't let the conversation go there! If a person does not want to trust Christ as Saviour after a couple conversations, then they simply don't want to get saved. Arguing is an enjoyable sport to some people.

The subject was hell was it not?

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[stovebolts]

Hi turnorburn,

Just a couple of things. First, I don’t really see anyone arguing here in a bad way, what I see, are people asking viable questions in search for a deeper understanding of the topic. I don’t think that there is anything wrong with that.

Now, if I may, let me address your response.

I never have been the sort to make things complicated, there are hundreds of books that speak of Hades, Sheol, the Great Gulf Fixed. With that said I'll say this,
I have always believed in keeping things simple, why drag mans interpretations into it, because that's what they are. A preacher preaching from the pulpit introduces his favorite book on these matters before he continues. Is this supposed to add weight to his argument?

First of all, life can be complicated as it’s bound in a natural state of tension. Being a Christian is described many times in the bible as knocking, seeking and opening than it is about having an attitude that one is right and everyone else is wrong. That being said, hell is a topic that needs to be explored by some of us as we don’t simply take man’s interpretation formed into doctrines that simply put, are far from what Jesus was trying to express.

In the example of the word Hell itself, we must remember that this word is a translation. A translation means that one had to interpret the original word in it's original context (ideoloies included), and find an associated word in ones own language that could be considered a close match. This is what occurred in the KJV (and any other translation) and as I have shown, the word Hell, in it’s original language came from the mythology of a Norse goddess. Weather you accept this or not, does not negate the fact that the word Hell, simply does not apply to all of it’s interpretations in the bible. For example, when Hell is used in place of Gehenna, the translation falls terribly short from the truth, or intent of the matter, which then gets distorted in doctrines which must be upheld, lest other portions of doctrines built upon those doctrines also begin to fail.

Now then, the mythology of Hell does come close to the mythology of Hades, as the two have much in common as each of them come from a form of pagan mythology and each point to an underworld. This is not a new concept as even the Sumerians had their myths and epics that hold many, many similarities. To deny this objective truth, would be niave. Again, there are similarities, but when we pull our doctrinal interpretations of hell into verses such as, “the gates of hellâ€Â, we can actually over simplify the scripture and miss the truth of the matter all together which causes us to miss the richness of what Jesus was actually trying to convey. This is a prime example where over simplifiying the verse misses the deeper realities and truths contained within those verses.

I go by experience, have you had an experience
of hell?

Yes I have, and I have also had an experience of heaven.

Please, feel free to ask me any questions, and I will try and answer them as honestly, and complete as I can. If I don’t know, I’ll even tell you I don’t know.

In the meantime, let me ask you one last question. Do you believe that hell can exist as a present reality here on earth, or, do you simply believe that it’s this realm in another dimension reserved for the afterlife?

Thank you for your time. Peace and grace.

 

[turnorburn]

Asking questions won't be necessary, you have stated you've seen both as I have.
I find my preaching has taken on an entire new dimension. Every person I meet, doesn't matter what their station, this is my calling to preach the gospel to "all" living creatures. As for hell being a presence in this or another dimension, there again from experience. I sat in a chair when a window opened and there it was, and it was : for those flames and seeing "all" of the people, this place is without measure, a lake a huge bottomless lake, this happened last year.
Heaven in 1972, the year I met our savior, taken in spirit to a place filled the the
voices as it were many many angels all singing together on one note. I thought he was going to take me on the spot. Was it like this for you?

 

[Orion]

And you feel these "visions" was actually from God? For what purpose would these "visions" be given to YOU, . . . and in what way are you worthy enough to receive such insight (if it actually was God giving it to you)? :-?

 

[GraceBwithU]

After further consideration I've decided this will be better served by breaking off with this conversation if you will.

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." -Titus 3:9

I don't believe we should ever throw people away by giving up on on them, but God does NOT want us wasting our time trying to win over stiff-necked unbelievers when there are so many people in this world waiting to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is what the Apostle Paul meant here in Titus 3:10-11. Our time is short upon the earth and we must use our resources wisely for God. Arguing only sheds more heat than light when sharing the Bible with people. It's ok to argue if the conversation is beneficial, but trying to reason with belligerent people is simply a waste of time. I simply won't let the conversation go there! If a person does not want to trust Christ as Saviour after a couple conversations, then they simply don't want to get saved. Arguing is an enjoyable sport to some people.

The subject was hell was it not?

In His Service,
turnorburn

I agree totally, I have fallen into long debates at times and finally remember the scripture you have posted. I read them again and come to my senses.

Some unbelievers are just simply to firmly rooted in their ways that they are not going to change regardless of what you say.

Simple...me too.

Titus 3:9-11
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
KJV

Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.
11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
NIV

Sorry to repeat the scripture but it is an important one for people to remember while on these forums.

OK...the subject is hell...

This brings to mind other post that I have made. Hell is the place of eternal torment and punishment. It is not shoal or hades. KJV uses the word hell generally, but one can easily see that this was a mistake in translation.

The lake of fire is Hell. Not the grave.

Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
KJV

The Greek word used here is Hadees casting hell into hell does not even make sense. God is speaking of Hades and death. Hades and hell are for sure not the same.

This is one of the few things that the KJV got wrong with the translation. There are others, but this one actually causes people to misunderstand some scripture. Here is another example.

Ps 139:8
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
KJV

The Hebrew word here is “sheol†not hell. The verse in the psalm is clearly speaking of the sleep of death. As in “make my bed†in sheol, not hell. He will be there with us to comfort us until the resurrection. We sleep in Jesus until He comes for us.

:wink:

 

[turnorburn]

And then he touched me, bless his heart, now if others would just go to him, he is long on forgiveness, repent of their sins and receive his pardon then all of this talk would turn to joy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1g9tH2osQQ&NR=1

 

[Orion]

Back to the topic of Hell, . . . . . . . where does this "separation from God" take place?

 

[turnorburn]

In Genesis read chapters two and three, it was that blasted tree :

 

[Bick]

Did you ever wonder where the definition of "hell" came from? There is really no equivalent in the Bible, except maybe, 'the lake of fire'.

Did any ever use a concordance and find out that in the KJV, particularly, the compilers 'translated' "sheol" as "hell" in about half of the occurrences.

If "hell" was really a place of burning fire and sulfur in the heart of the earth (as tradition teaches), look how rediculous it is when:

Righteous David was delivered from hell: 2 Sam. 22:6; Psa. 18:5; 86:13; 116:3 and 139:8.

Christ's soul was said to be in hell: Psa. 16:10

Hell was the fishes belly where Jonah went: Jonah 2:2

In a figure, humans can dig into hell: Amos 9:2.

It would have made things so much clearer if the compilers had translated "Sheol," meaning "the unseen" or "the grave", as "unseen" or "the grave", depending on the context.

Fortunately, many updated versions use "unseen" or "the grave."

NOW, in the Greek Scriptures, as many of you have no doubt pointed out, it is a little more complicated, because the KJ compilers used "hell" for three different words:

GEHENNA, HADES, and TARTARUS. Of these three, only Gehenna has anything to do with fire.

Hades is the Greek equivalent of Sheol, and can mean "the unseen" or "the grave", depending on the context. See Acts 2:26-28 quoting Psalm 16:9-10. Knowing this clarifies certain verses to me, namely: Matt. 16:18, "..Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Years ago I wondered, "how could 'hell' be fighting against Christ", since he created both?

But, now, I understand that "gates" is a metaphor for "powers"; then, hell (Hades) being "the unseen", I read it as "...the powers of the unseen shall not prevail against it."
For Satan and all his forces, are trying to win out, prevail, against Christ's plan for his church, but, of course, they will not.

Of course, many may prefer to understand it as "...the gates of the grave shall not prevail against it."

"Gehenna" occurs 12 times in the NT, 11 of them in the words of Jesus in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Gehenna was the dump site outside the south wall of Jerusalem, where the offal and garbage was dumped and kept burning to help purify the air and destroy the trash. It was there during our Lord's earthly ministry and will be again, in my opinion, outside the walls of the restored Jerusalem in the millennial kingdom of Christ Jesus.
Jesus warned of sinning, breaking the law, and being judged by the Jewish high council to be worthy of Gehenna. This was the worst of judgments, for there would be no burial (something important to Jews); the body of the criminal, after being stoned to death, would be cast into Gehenna where the fires were kept going and the maggots were eating on the unburned waste.

IMO, Isaiah prophecies of this very thing in 66:24. It is obvious, certainly, from verse 15 and on, that he is describing the return of Messiah Jesus to the earth, to defeat his enemies and deliver his people, Israel. The restoring of the earth and the skies will be accomplished (66:22) and all flesh (nations) shall come to worship before the Lord in Jerusalem. Since the Lord will rule with a "rod of iron", there will be judgment, and I believe that is what is described in verse 24:
"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." AV. I believe this is the "Gehenna" outside the restored Jerusalem, for our Lord quotes part of Isaiah 66:24 in Mark 9:43-48: "..where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

The third word wrongly translated as "hell" is "tartaroo" meaning roughly, "cast down into Tartarus", 2 Pet. 2:4. Peter borrowed the concept of Tartarus, being a prison of deepest darkness, from Greek mythology, but here, it is sanctified by the Holy Spirit. At any rate, we read that the sinning angels are in chains of darkness, awaiting judgment.
There is nothing in this passage concerning burning fires. They are simply imprisioned somehow, in deepest darkness, awaiting their judgment.