Bible Study Help, please! So confused…

[Adelaide]

there was NO deal made.... it was a command to leave it alone. why that particular tree was placed there. is a 64 thousand dollar question it could be a testing of his faith.

2. God made a deal with Adam. It's called a covenant.
God would not have made this covenant with Adam unless God knew that Adam knew right from wrong.
The covenant is called the Edenic Covenant, in case you want to look it up.

Not my words, but part of my point.

 

[Adelaide]

Can we take God at His word and trust Him without understanding? Just simple trust. Take my advice the Lord said, that tree is not good for you, do not eat from it or you will die...Trust me on this...

And make no mistake about it, they did die that day they ate the fruit. They died spiritually and totally lost their relationship with God.

Now, after we have fallen we are faced with building a resume of trust with God once again.

I think that the analogy of a relationship with our dog is a good analogy to our situation, except we are the dogs now and God is still wanting us to trust Him. Watch your dog, he only wants to please his master. Trust is built and then a bond.

I think the analogy of a relationship with a dog is not good enough. We’re forgetting that there was the gift of verbal communication with God at this time.

Trust can only come with a pattern of trustworthy behavior. Is it trustworthy behavior to create a forbidden tree, knowing the creatures you created are definitely going to do what you specifically asked them not to do.

 

[Adelaide]

Understanding and trust are two different things. Should the toddler trust his daddy when he says, I'm putting my loaded pistol on this table but don't you touch it because you will get hurt!! ??

Of course they don't understand the danger, but since they have never received anything but goodness from their Father, they can trust Him.

I wet a step further with my two boys. I took them shootin 22's and shook up some cans of soda and let them shott them and see the explosion of soda all over. Then I would go to the split can and hand it to them and said, ok now fix it, make it better...(they could not), this is what would happen to your mommy or your brother if you shot them so don't do that! This is real, this is not TV...And I think the dynamic demonstration of power to them helped them to understand the dangers of weapons and why they should not touch them...

I guess God didn't go shooting tin cans with Adam & Eve?

No. And that’s my point.

You wanted to show your kids the danger. You wanted them to understand. God didn’t show the same courtesy or thoughtfulness to his children. He just said “DON’T” and expected them to obey thoughtlessly.

If they’ve only received goodness from their father, how could they possibly CONCEIVE of anything else without some kind of explanation?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I’m a fairly recent believer and I’ve been taking the time to really read through the Bible and meditate on certain passages, but I have a couple questions about a verse that’s really perplexing me!

Genesis Ch.1
15 The LORD God put the man in the Garden of Eden to take care of it and to look after it. 16 But the LORD told him, “You may eat fruit from any tree in the garden, 17 except the one that has the power to let you know the difference between right and wrong. If you eat any fruit from that tree, you will die before the day is over!”

Firstly, why doesn’t God wish them to know right from wrong? And, how is Adam to understand it’s wrong to eat from the tree if he lacks the power of knowing right from wrong? How is he to understand that disobeying God is wrong?

Hello Adelaide.
If you can stand a little correction.

The knowledge good and evil brings, is that the Good suffers at the hands of evildoers. That's what God didn't want Adam to know.

Adam knew right from wrong before having a bite. Not seeing ahead that what disobedience can lead to, doesn't mean Adam didn't know right from wrong to begin with.

 

[Edward]

I think the analogy of a relationship with a dog is not good enough. We’re forgetting that there was the gift of verbal communication with God at this time.

Trust can only come with a pattern of trustworthy behavior. Is it trustworthy behavior to create a forbidden tree, knowing the creatures you created are definitely going to do what you specifically asked them not to do.

I don't understand the rational for blaming God for man's mistake. Man made the choice himself to eat that fruit, God did not force them to either obey or disobey, He gave us the gift of free will. He only made one rule for them to follow.

Of course He knew that man would mess up and disobey, but, He still let us make the choice. Luckily, God is a Master at taking bad situations and turning them to good for tthose who love Him. So in this way the Lord can use any situation to turn it into a teaching platform to teach us humans how to love God and how to love our Brother as ourselves. Some things can only be learned through suffering and experience. All we must do is to abide in Him. Trust Him.

Was Adam & Eve abiding in Him when they messed up? They could have said, let me check...Hey God some guy over here says you lie? And God could have helped them out in time. But you know how women are (Lol), men too really. I can do it, No I don't need any help, whoops! But it wasn't entrapment, it was free will and life. Our free will showed us that we should trust God! Just look at the mess we're in!

 

[Edward]

You wanted to show your kids the danger. You wanted them to understand. God didn’t show the same courtesy or thoughtfulness to his children. He just said “DON’T” and expected them to obey thoughtlessly.

I think you ae right here. But, what is thoughtlessly? Without thought, so not to make decisions with the mind but with the heart or spirit. Is that right? I believe so.

Obeying thoughtlessly, out of Love is what God wants us to do. Remember the Angel that came to Zachiriah and told him about he will have a son and name him John. And Zacariahs started questioning everything, so the Angel struck him unable to speak until after the baby was born, so It's a fair bet that he should have thoughtlessly obeyed and just said, yes Lord.

If they’ve only received goodness from their father, how could they possibly CONCEIVE of anything else without some kind of explanation?

Right, they had no knowledge of good and evil so they didn't even know what a lie was. But is that any reason to disobey your Father? He did warn them.

Imagine this for a second: We are in Heaven as spirits before the earth is ever created. Living in our Fathers house. Today the Father said, I Love You Son! And someone said, What's that mean Abba? You say it all the time but what does I love you really mean?
Are you sure you really want to know?
YES!!
You would have to walk through the valley of Tears and I would not subject you to that, but I will also not stop you if that is what you wish to learn...

(stupidly) YES YES YES!!!

And here we are. I think I will take His word for it and trust Him next time!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But he made a point of creating a tree that does EXACTLY that- know right from wrong- and put it in the most inconvenient place, and then told Adam not to do something it seems like Adam would have a hard time understanding.

Yes, and if they had refused to eat of it, that is, they chose RIGHT instead of wrong, they would have learned the difference. They also could have asked God to teach them right from wrong. We learn more from doing right that from doing wrong. Doing wrong brings darkness. Doing right brings light.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No. And that’s my point.

You wanted to show your kids the danger. You wanted them to understand. God didn’t show the same courtesy or thoughtfulness to his children. He just said “DON’T” and expected them to obey thoughtlessly.

If they’ve only received goodness from their father, how could they possibly CONCEIVE of anything else without some kind of explanation?

There are matters about which parents tell their children simply "don't." My parents told me not to get into cars with strangers. They did not tell me why. That was correct.

Children are not blank sheets. Humans are not blank sheets. Receiving only good does not mean one cannot conceive of doing what one feels like regardless of what it means to others or the consequences. Few do the opposite of good because it is the opposite of good. Adam and Eve did not take the forbidden fruit because they thought it would be bad and therefore desirable. People generally steal because they want the product. Few do it just because it is wrong.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This is just another problem I keep coming across- SO many translations, and it seems everyone just chooses their favorite and then makes their own interpretations within their chosen translation. I’ve had people tell me to seek Gods truth by prayer, reading, meditation, but if what I find to be the truth is different from yours, whose is right?

One can educate oneself on the matter as to which Bible but there are some common sense rules to apply such as never trust any work done by one man. It will always have his prejudices in it. Translations done by a team are less likely to have personal theological preferences. Modern ones are less likely to be accurate than earlier ones as the culture has dropped in its moral level. Translators literally change the text to match their theology and feel no guilt at doing so. It does not say exactly what they want so they change it. This would not have been done earlier except by the Catholics (who did that in spades.)

One can also think. Now it takes having the mind renewed and changed away from the lower thinking we learned as members of the culture to be sure, but in each of us is a moral judge who renders judgements both on us and others. That last point is often poo-pooed in christian circles which is why we have such confusion. Ofter impeccable logic and it is disdained. That is because few can think and evaluate.

Prayer, reading and especially meditation are only as valuable as a man is honestly seeking truth, not a comfortable theology that promises what he would like. That man has to want to see matters as God sees them and no, each one is not allowed to have their own opinion AND that opinion be true. How does one find the truth? Jesus told us.

"He who keeps (does) my teaching will come to know the truth and the truth will set him free." How do we know the truth? We actually DO the teaching of Jesus, the bit we do understand. Jesus promised we would come to know the truth. I notice this advise you did not get which is really too bad because it is the ONLY way Jesus promised that we would find the truth. Anyone can see why this advise was not offered. IT means you have to DO the work, not just read it, mediation on it and say some words to God in prayer about it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hello Adelaide.
If you can stand a little correction.

The knowledge good and evil brings, is that the Good suffers at the hands of evildoers. That's what God didn't want Adam to know.

Adam knew right from wrong before having a bite. Not seeing ahead that what disobedience can lead to, doesn't mean Adam didn't know right from wrong to begin with.

As much as I respect you, Journeyman, I disagree. Adam did not know moral right and wrong. What and how he thought is beyond us as we cannot conceive of a grown human not knowing moral right and wrong and still be intelligent. The tree was there so that they would learn either by doing right or doing wrong. One does not learn that by being given information. Guilt for a wrong deed comes after the deed is done, not before. If they had refuses the serpent saying they were not going to betray that command and stood firm, they would have understood moral right and wrong. When one has gone through a testing of one's moral fiber and chosen moral right, as painful as that was, one understands moral right from wrong better than by doing wrong. One sees more clearly after doing right.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

As much as I respect you, Journeyman, I disagree. Adam did not know moral right and wrong. What and how he thought is beyond us as we cannot conceive of a grown human not knowing moral right and wrong and still be intelligent. The tree was there so that they would learn either by doing right or doing wrong. One does not learn that by being given information. Guilt for a wrong deed comes after the deed is done, not before. If they had refuses the serpent saying they were not going to betray that command and stood firm, they would have understood moral right and wrong. When one has gone through a testing of one's moral fiber and chosen moral right, as painful as that was, one understands moral right from wrong better than by doing wrong. One sees more clearly after doing right.

I believe what Adam and Eve didn't know was how much disobeying God hurts him.
I believe God likens this sorrow to the pain of child birth and also the hardships of tilling the soil. My reasoning is that our first parents are figures of Christ and the church, whose ministry is to be fruitful.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I believe what Adam and Eve didn't know was how much disobeying God hurts him.
I believe God likens this sorrow to the pain of child birth and also the hardships of tilling the soil. My reasoning is that our first parents are figures of Christ and the church, whose ministry is to be fruitful.

There is no evidence of this but let me ask you, do you know how much your sin hurts God? How would you know? I am not blaming you but where did God communicate this to them after the event or is this common in your life that God communicates this to you? Do you know sin because it hurts Him? How effective is that?

You see, what your are describing is a relationship aspect that is not a reason we are told not to sin. Not even Jesus told his disciples not to sin because it hurts him or the Father. This is actually a very poor parenting method and amounts to manipulation by feelings. One can be hurt and one can see the hurt one caused another, but no good parents uses "if you do this you will hurt me" as the reason not to do wrong. The reason ought to be "because it is wrong" not because it hurts me. I also do not see God saying that man sinning is like child birth.

What happens when we sin is a separation between God and us. He withdraws. That hurts us and likely more than it hurts Him. He does not need us. We do need Him. We are the dependent ones, not Him.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

There is no evidence of this but let me ask you, do you know how much your sin hurts God? How would you know? I am not blaming you but where did God communicate this to them after the event or is this common in your life that God communicates this to you? Do you know sin because it hurts Him? How effective is that?

You see, what your are describing is a relationship aspect that is not a reason we are told not to sin. Not even Jesus told his disciples not to sin because it hurts him or the Father. This is actually a very poor parenting method and amounts to manipulation by feelings. One can be hurt and one can see the hurt one caused another, but no good parents uses "if you do this you will hurt me" as the reason not to do wrong. The reason ought to be "because it is wrong" not because it hurts me. I also do not see God saying that man sinning is like child birth.

What happens when we sin is a separation between God and us. He withdraws. That hurts us and likely more than it hurts Him. He does not need us. We do need Him. We are the dependent ones, not Him.

Hey sis, before you interject thoughts into my responses, please acknowledge that I never said or implied that "God needs us."

I suggest you gaze at the cross of Christ and then ask, "Why is he up there?"
I don't think the Christian who started this thread knows why.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hey sis, before you interject thoughts into my responses, please acknowledge that I never said or implied that "God needs us."

I suggest you gaze at the cross of Christ and then ask, "Why is he up there?"
I don't think the Christian who started this thread knows why.

I didn't say you said God needs us. Do you think Jesus is on the cross because God was hurt? Where is that in the Bible? Did that "comfort" the hurting God?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I didn't say you said God needs us. Do you think Jesus is on the cross just because God was hurt? Where is that in the Bible?

Jesus on the cross is THE example of God being hurt by sins done to him. This knowledge of good and evil I didn't know before the gospel was properly presented to me, but I knew right from wrong before that.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus on the cross is THE example of God being hurt by sins done to him. This knowledge of good and evil I didn't know before the gospel was properly presented to me, but I knew right from wrong before that.

Jesus never that it was. None of the apostles said that was the reason either. Not one word.

And knowing right from wrong IS knowing good from evil. We did not know this when we were young. But there came an age when we did know.

 

[GodsGrace]

1. Where can I find the verse that says they have infused knowledge?

Theologians have been studying Genesis 1-3 for thousands of years . 2 thousand, to be exact.
There's a lot of information in Genesis 1 and 2 and 3 that is not immediately noticable.

Adam and Eve had preternatural gifts...

God also gave Adam and Eve the preternatural gifts, namely
capacities and powers above and beyond the powers of created human nature, but not beyond the powers of angelic nature. The preternatural gifts include infused knowledge, freedom from concupiscence (the tendency toward sin and the disorder of our emotions as a result of original sin), and bodily immortality. These gifts gave Adam and Eve strength of will and control of their senses and emotions, as well as freedom from suffering and death.
source: https://afc.org/fc_question/what-special-gifts-did-god-give-to-adam-and-eve/
also...
According to Catholic Tradition, Adam and Eve were endowed with “preternatural gifts”. These preternatural gifts are identified as the following:

1. Infused Knowledge
2. Immortality
3. Integrity (human appetites being completely submitted to the human intellect)

Adam and Eve were also constituted in original righteousness (justitia) on account of the supernatural gift of sanctifying grace:

4. Original Righteousness

These four gifts correspond to the four Cardinal Virtues:

Prudence (relating to knowledge)
Fortitude (relating to immortality)
Temperance (relating to integrity)
Justice (relating to original righteousness)

On account of sin, humanity lost the preternatural gifts and the supernatural gift and fell to a natural state. Man’s intellect became darkened, he became subject to disease and death, concupiscence or the “lust of the flesh” arose in man, and he lost his original righteousness and thus gained original sin.
source: https://taylormarshall.com/2007/10/preternatural-gifts-and-cardinal.html

2. God made a deal with Adam, knowing that Adam knew right from wrong. But to get Adam to this point, God had to create a tree and put it in a place where he knew it would be a temptation, told Adam NO, then let them do what he already knew they’d do. How is that not entrapment?

It's not entrapment because Adam had free will to obey God or to not obey God.
A police net could not entrap me of selling drugs because I don't sell drugs.

God wanted to create us.
He knew we would sin.
He made a remedy for our sin.
He's a God of love, mercy and justice.

When two men make a deal it's called a deal.
When God makes a deal with man, it's called a covenant.
God made a Covenant with Adam...it's called the Edenic Covenant:

The Edenic covenant is one of many covenants between God and man in the Bible. The Edenic covenant specifically refers to the covenant made between God and Adam in Genesis. The Edenic covenant was a bilateral or conditional covenant, that is, there was responsibility on both sides. Adam was responsible to obey, and God would bless him with life. If Adam disobeyed, and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, death would be the result (Genesis 2:16–17). Adam's life was conditional on his obedience.
source: https://www.compellingtruth.org/Edenic-covenant.html


The article goes on to speak of a second covenant at the time of the Garden...
If you care to look it up, it's called The Adamic Covenant.
The Adamic Covenant was unilateral and unconditinal.
It's interesting to learn all the covenants...

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus on the cross is THE example of God being hurt by sins done to him. This knowledge of good and evil I didn't know before the gospel was properly presented to me, but I knew right from wrong before that.

I'd have to agree with the above.
But it has to be properly understood...

Right is good.
Wrong is evil.

But we can only understand this AFTER we know God and how the evil one rules the world and how we need to decide which one we are going to serve. Romans 6:16

NOW we can understand that doing good is serving God,
and doing bad is serving satan ---

In the spirit world ALL BAD is called evil,
it can be moral evil
or natural evil.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not my words, but part of my point.

LOL
I told you in my first post to you to find yourself a good church and attend it and learn on your own.
Asking questions on forums will not do you much good since it seems that we Christians agree on the basics,
but disagree on small nuances that are learned from learning about theology.
You don't need to know any theology to live a life for God and worship Him in your living.

Who knows what the other poster understood about God making a deal with Adam.
But that God certainly did...

Bilateral, conditional covenants carry with them blessings and curses...
Blessings if man obeys,
Curses if he doesn't.

In Genesis 3:16-19 God states the curses given to mankind because Adam did not obey God.

16Then he said to the woman,
“I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy,
and in pain you will give birth.
And you will desire to control your husband,
but he will rule over you.c”
17And to the man he said,
“Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree
whose fruit I commanded you not to eat,
the ground is cursed because of you.
All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it.
18It will grow thorns and thistles for you,
though you will eat of its grains.
19By the sweat of your brow
will you have food to eat
until you return to the ground
from which you were made.
For you were made from dust,
and to dust you will return.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I think the analogy of a relationship with a dog is not good enough. We’re forgetting that there was the gift of verbal communication with God at this time.

Trust can only come with a pattern of trustworthy behavior. Is it trustworthy behavior to create a forbidden tree, knowing the creatures you created are definitely going to do what you specifically asked them not to do.

If you want to come to understanding, you must discipline your mind to accept only truthful assumptions or at least those that match life as you know it to some degree. Parents forbid children things they know are dangerous all the time. It is not a lack of being trustworthy to do so. It is being trustworthy. It was trustworthy to forbid the tree of that knowledge. That knowledge could have been obtained righteously.

Now you are throwing in God's foreknowledge as a reason and I can tell you with 100% certainty that we do not understand that aspect of God's ability so it is best to leave it out. And what is most important, if your direction is to accuse God of evil and you are letting yourself drift that way, no understanding will be given. He who comes to God (for understanding in this case) must believe that He is morally good. (This is because he IS morally good.) The enemy will accuse God of evil and we ought not take his part and embrace his ideas. Eve did that and it did not turn out well for her.