Bible Study Help, please! So confused…

[journeymanisnothing]

Jesus never that it was. None of the apostles said that was the reason either. Not one word.

Throughout the Bible,i t teaches us about the longsuffering of God. The cross of Christ is the best example of of our God patiently enduring sins being committed against him. Showing mercy, willing to forgive even people who are sinning against him by driving nails into his hands and feet.

Maybe you would understand Gods' pain better if your own child was accused of something he didn't do and then abused in a way so vile it's almost unimaginable.

And knowing right from wrong IS knowing good from evil. We did not know this when we were young. But there came an age when we did know.

I knew right wrong good evil from a young age, being taught by family, etc. People can have a moral sense, without understanding how God sees them. Adam and Eve were naked all along. They just weren't aware of it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Throughout the Bible,i t teaches us about the longsuffering of God.

But you are assuming you know exactly what that suffering entails. It is not described and I think it is foolish to think we know exactly how and why God suffers.

The cross of Christ is the best example of of our God patiently enduring sins being committed against him. Showing mercy, willing to forgive even people who are sinning against him by driving nails into his hands and feet.

Yes, that is true. Jesus was suffering wrong at the hands of wicked men. It is the example of how we should endure that kind of suffering if it comes our way. But this does not tells us what God was feeling and why.

Maybe you would understand Gods' pain better if your own child was accused of something he didn't do and then abused in a way so vile it's almost unimaginable.

I understand God's pain better because I asked Him what he suffered and He gave me a bit of insight. Any more and it would have killed me. He was not suffering because he was suffering. He was not feeling sorry for Himself. There are no words in the languages of men to describe what God was feeling as Jesus suffered on the cross. I cannot express it.

On a lesser level what He suffers when we do wrong is not what we think it would be if we were suffering wrong. When we suffer wrong we feel sorry for ourselves that we have to suffer. Sometimes we are angry that we have to suffer. God is never angry that He has to suffer. He is angry because wrong is evil and does great harm to many as well as aids the enemy.

I knew right wrong good evil from a young age, being taught by family, etc. People can have a moral sense, without understanding how God sees them. Adam and Eve were naked all along. They just weren't aware of it.

No child can be taught right from wrong. What is right or what is wrong is taught, but the concept cannot be taught. But your second sentence said it well. People have a moral sense. We all do. We cannot help it.

But let me ask you, why is right without using any reference to anyone else? If you tell a child not to do something because it’s wrong, and they as “what is wrong” how would you answer?

 

[Adelaide]

Hello Adelaide.
If you can stand a little correction.

The knowledge good and evil brings, is that the Good suffers at the hands of evildoers. That's what God didn't want Adam to know.

Adam knew right from wrong before having a bite. Not seeing ahead that what disobedience can lead to, doesn't mean Adam didn't know right from wrong to begin with.

I don’t know how you gleaned this from the same verses I was reading. Can you tell me how exactly you came to this? Am I missing some verses?

 

[Adelaide]

Theologians have been studying Genesis 1-3 for thousands of years . 2 thousand, to be exact.
There's a lot of information in Genesis 1 and 2 and 3 that is not immediately noticable.

Adam and Eve had preternatural gifts...

God also gave Adam and Eve the preternatural gifts, namely
capacities and powers above and beyond the powers of created human nature, but not beyond the powers of angelic nature. The preternatural gifts include infused knowledge, freedom from concupiscence (the tendency toward sin and the disorder of our emotions as a result of original sin), and bodily immortality. These gifts gave Adam and Eve strength of will and control of their senses and emotions, as well as freedom from suffering and death.
source: https://afc.org/fc_question/what-special-gifts-did-god-give-to-adam-and-eve/
also...
According to Catholic Tradition, Adam and Eve were endowed with “preternatural gifts”. These preternatural gifts are identified as the following:



Adam and Eve were also constituted in original righteousness (justitia) on account of the supernatural gift of sanctifying grace:


These four gifts correspond to the four Cardinal Virtues:


On account of sin, humanity lost the preternatural gifts and the supernatural gift and fell to a natural state. Man’s intellect became darkened, he became subject to disease and death, concupiscence or the “lust of the flesh” arose in man, and he lost his original righteousness and thus gained original sin.
source: https://taylormarshall.com/2007/10/preternatural-gifts-and-cardinal.html

It's not entrapment because Adam had free will to obey God or to not obey God.
A police net could not entrap me of selling drugs because I don't sell drugs.

God wanted to create us.
He knew we would sin.
He made a remedy for our sin.
He's a God of love, mercy and justice.

When two men make a deal it's called a deal.
When God makes a deal with man, it's called a covenant.
God made a Covenant with Adam...it's called the Edenic Covenant:

The Edenic covenant is one of many covenants between God and man in the Bible. The Edenic covenant specifically refers to the covenant made between God and Adam in Genesis. The Edenic covenant was a bilateral or conditional covenant, that is, there was responsibility on both sides. Adam was responsible to obey, and God would bless him with life. If Adam disobeyed, and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, death would be the result (Genesis 2:16–17). Adam's life was conditional on his obedience.
source: https://www.compellingtruth.org/Edenic-covenant.html


The article goes on to speak of a second covenant at the time of the Garden...
If you care to look it up, it's called The Adamic Covenant.
The Adamic Covenant was unilateral and unconditinal.
It's interesting to learn all the covenants...

If theologians have been studying the same book and other relevant scriptures for thousands of years, why is there still so much confusion and discord regarding its meaning amongst those who’ve been studying it?



As for your analogy- ridiculous! The police didn’t create you and drugs and nets and then tell you not to touch any of it. The police aren’t all omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. God knew they were going to do it. Why’d he want them to? So that we’d need a savior? Why? Death still exists. So we can suffer through life, then praise God for all eternity? Why? Does God NEED our praise and eternal worship? Why? Is he that needy? Covenants seem useless…

 

[Adelaide]

I don't understand the rational for blaming God for man's mistake. Man made the choice himself to eat that fruit, God did not force them to either obey or disobey, He gave us the gift of free will. He only made one rule for them to follow.

Of course He knew that man would mess up and disobey, but, He still let us make the choice. Luckily, God is a Master at taking bad situations and turning them to good for tthose who love Him. So in this way the Lord can use any situation to turn it into a teaching platform to teach us humans how to love God and how to love our Brother as ourselves. Some things can only be learned through suffering and experience. All we must do is to abide in Him. Trust Him.

Was Adam & Eve abiding in Him when they messed up? They could have said, let me check...Hey God some guy over here says you lie? And God could have helped them out in time. But you know how women are (Lol), men too really. I can do it, No I don't need any help, whoops! But it wasn't entrapment, it was free will and life. Our free will showed us that we should trust God! Just look at the mess we're in!

How is it free will if God knew what was going to happen? That sounds like predestination.

 

[Free]

If theologians have been studying the same book and other relevant scriptures for thousands of years, why is there still so much confusion and discord regarding its meaning amongst those who’ve been studying it?

In part because we don't have the original writings, just copies, which introduce ambiguity in areas. Although, due to the number of copies we can know with great certainty what the originals most likely said. In part because the languages are no longer spoken, so interpretation is difficult in some areas. In part because of the nature of some language is rather ambiguous. In part because some things can have more than one legitimate meaning. In part because there could be missing or disputed relevant cultural context. In part because people, even theologians, tend to approach Scripture with preconceived ideas. There are numerous reasons. Good theology and interpretation of Scripture is much more difficult than most people realize.

As for your analogy- ridiculous! The police didn’t create you and drugs and nets and then tell you not to touch any of it. The police aren’t all omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. God knew they were going to do it. Why’d he want them to? So that we’d need a savior? Why? Death still exists. So we can suffer through life, then praise God for all eternity? Why? Does God NEED our praise and eternal worship? Why? Is he that needy? Covenants seem useless…

God is love, that is, it is his nature; he cannot not love. He created us, in his image, out of love, to be in relationship with him and to know him and his glory. There can be no greater love or privilege. God doesn't need our praise or worship, but he certainly is worthy of it.

Given all that, can you think of a better way for humans to be able to freely choose to love God?

 

[Adelaide]

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1John 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

We have to trust in the Holy Spirit to teach us all truths. If what one teaches does not line up with the scriptures they give then do not trust in their doctrines as there are many doctrines of man that try to make scripture fit what they teach.

But why? You realize there is no other book in the world that causes so much discord and confusion amongst its followers?

 

[Adelaide]

In part because we don't have the original writings, just copies, which introduce ambiguity in areas. Although, due to the number of copies we can know with great certainty what the originals most likely said. In part because the languages are no longer spoken, so interpretation is difficult in some areas. In part because of the nature of some language is rather ambiguous. In part because some things can have more than one legitimate meaning. In part because there could be missing or disputed relevant cultural context. In part because people, even theologians, tend to approach Scripture with preconceived ideas. There are numerous reasons. Good theology and interpretation of Scripture is much more difficult than most people realize.


God is love, that is, it is his nature; he cannot not love. He created us, in his image, out of love, to be in relationship with him, and to know him and his glory. There can be no greater love or privilege. God doesn't need our praise or worship, but he certainly is worthy of it.

Given all that, can you think of a better way for humans to be able to freely choose to love God?

What of those who have never known love, only suffering?

In 2013 an eight year old child by the name of Gabriel Fernandez was rushed to the hospital for suffering a cardiac arrest. He died on the way. EMTs noticed dozens of old, poorly healed wounds- burns, scratches, abrasions. His little body was covered in them. When the coroner performed the autopsy he only found more evidence of this. Poorly mended broken bones and other signs of continuous inflicted trauma suggested this child had suffered horrible physical abuse since birth. The coroner found cat litter in little Gabriel’s stomach. It was the last thing he’d eaten. Or was fed.

When his death was investigated, it was discovered the abuse Gabriel suffered was inflicted by his own birth mother. From birth, she abused him until his poor little heart gave out at eight years old. She had two other children, but for some reason, she only abused the one. The two others testified that she made Gabriel sleep in a tiny cupboard. He never even had a bed. She even entered into a relationship where her partner beat Gabriel often as well.

From the moment of his birth until his death, that child knew only suffering. If no one helped lead him to accept God as his savior, or he never figured it out for himself, then he’s suffering for all eternity. This is the sin of his mother, but he’s paying for it twice.

If I had the chance, I would have stepped in and saved that child. I don’t know you, but I believe you would’ve done the same without hesitation. But God actively put that child in that womb to be born unto her and suffer until he died at her hand. Is that behavior worthy of my praise or worship?

 

[Free]

What of those who have never known love, only suffering?

In 2013 an eight year old child by the name of Gabriel Fernandez was rushed to the hospital for suffering a cardiac arrest. He died on the way. EMTs noticed dozens of old, poorly healed wounds- burns, scratches, abrasions. His little body was covered in them. When the coroner performed the autopsy he only found more evidence of this. Poorly mended broken bones and other signs of continuous inflicted trauma suggested this child had suffered horrible physical abuse since birth. The coroner found cat litter in little Gabriel’s stomach. It was the last thing he’d eaten. Or was fed.

When his death was investigated, it was discovered the abuse Gabriel suffered was inflicted by his own birth mother. From birth, she abused him until his poor little heart gave out at eight years old. She had two other children, but for some reason, she only abused the one. The two others testified that she made Gabriel sleep in a tiny cupboard. He never even had a bed. She even entered into a relationship where her partner beat Gabriel often as well.

From the moment of his birth until his death, that child knew only suffering. If no one helped lead him to accept God as his savior, or he never figured it out for himself, then he’s suffering for all eternity. This is the sin of his mother, but he’s paying for it twice.

If I had the chance, I would have stepped in and saved that child. I don’t know you, but I believe you would’ve done the same without hesitation. But God actively put that child in that womb to be born unto her and suffer until he died at her hand. Is that behavior worthy of my praise or worship?

I'll get to this. This is exactly what I meant by good theology and interpretation of Scripture is much more difficult than most people realize.

What about the answer to my question?

 

[Adelaide]

I'll get to this. This is exactly what I meant by good theology and interpretation of Scripture is much more difficult than most people realize.

What about the answer to my question?

Yes! No trees in the garden, no choice, just love.

 

[Free]

Yes! No trees in the garden, no choice, just love.

"No choice, just love." If there is no choice to love, is it really love? Is it not "forced love," which we call rape or some other form of severe abuse?

 

[jerry63935]

You realize there is no other book in the world that causes so much discord and confusion amongst its followers?

its not the book /bible its man kind and the devil creates the division man reads a scripture and creates a new teaching

 

[Edward]

How is it free will if God knew what was going to happen? That sounds like predestination.

Just because God knew it would happen doesn't mean that you didn't make the choice.

 

[for_his_glory]

But why? You realize there is no other book in the world that causes so much discord and confusion amongst its followers?

It's not the Bible, but how many interpret it within their own carnal minds twisting the word to fit their own theology, or preconceived ideas of that which has already been written.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Now, let's take a look at the scriptures you wanted to discuss in your OP.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satan is the deceiver, the father of lies and the tempter of our faith and works through anything or anyone to deceive those who are God's own like the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, but also with freewill to make their own choices just like Satan who chose to fall away from God becoming his own god. Eve fell to that temptation as she lusted after the unbidden fruit and gave Adam to eat of it knowing full well God said not to eat of it. At that moment she and Adam ate they disobeyed God and their eyes were opened to what was good and evil paying the consequences for their actions as God took them out of the garden of Eden and had to work for everything they needed.

It's as simple as it gets without any confusion if you stick with what has already been written. There are over 5000 different religions in the world all claiming they have all truths, but we can plainly see that is not true. Be true to God and His word and you will not be deceived bu all the man made doctrines and theology that is out there.

 

[jerry63935]

Just because God knew it would happen doesn't mean that you didn't make the choice.

if a person would just study it out they could see..echooooo

 

[for_his_glory]

How is it free will if God knew what was going to happen? That sounds like predestination.

God did not predestine the man, but only made man in His image of love that we would be holy and without blame. What God predestined was the plan of His salvation through Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:1-14, for since the time of Adam all have fallen short of the glory of the Lord by the choices they make by being taught what is good and what is evil.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word preached to them, but yet many refuse to accept the word of God by their own choice.

 

[for_his_glory]

No. And that’s my point.

You wanted to show your kids the danger. You wanted them to understand. God didn’t show the same courtesy or thoughtfulness to his children. He just said “DON’T” and expected them to obey thoughtlessly.

If they’ve only received goodness from their father, how could they possibly CONCEIVE of anything else without some kind of explanation?

It's not even about the tree, but that God gave a commandment not to eat from it or else there would be consequences for doing so and both Adam and Eve knew what God said. It's like telling a child not to touch the hot stove or they will get burnt, but the child touches it anyway and now pays the consequence for their action. They defied what God said and what they had in the garden was now closed up to them and they had to make their own life living off the land working for their food.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

 

[GodsGrace]

If theologians have been studying the same book and other relevant scriptures for thousands of years, why is there still so much confusion and discord regarding its meaning amongst those who’ve been studying it?

Where is the discord and confusion regarding Genesis - specifically the points you brought up in your OP?
I don't see any.
Perhaps some believers have their very own opinion about what is happening in Genesis - but I don't know of any scholars that have differing opinions.

Maybe you'd like to post some and we could discuss?

As for your analogy- ridiculous! The police didn’t create you and drugs and nets and then tell you not to touch any of it.

Well, actually, the Law does tell us not to use drugs or sell drugs.
So my analogy stands.

The police aren’t all omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. God knew they were going to do it. Why’d he want them to?

What makes you think that God WANTED Adam and Eve to eat the fruit?
Where does the bible state that God wanted them to eat of it?
They had the free will to do it or not do it.
God is not going to baby-sit His creation every moment of the day and night.
YOU and I are able to do as we wish.
We could obey God or
we could NOT obey God.
The choice is ours.

But God had a plan for their disobedience, didn't He?

So that we’d need a savior? Why? Death still exists. So we can suffer through life, then praise God for all eternity? Why? Does God NEED our praise and eternal worship? Why? Is he that needy? Covenants seem useless…

I think it's wonderful that you're a pretty new Christian and yet you know about Covenants and whether or not they're useful. It took me many years to learn of the idea of a Covenant and then to learn about them.

You're getting the steps out of order.....:
God didn't want us to need a Savior and so He planted the tree in the Garden.
He planted the tree in the Garden and Adam disobeyed and SO we needed a savior.

Why do we need a Savior?

The NT teaches us that Jesus died for the whole world.
Why do you suppose this was necessary?
Try reading Romans 5:16-19

 

[journeymanisnothing]

But you are assuming you know exactly what that suffering entails. It is not described and I think it is foolish to think we know exactly how and why God suffers.

We learn from Jesus how our Father feels. Like this,

how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings Mt.23:37

Yes, that is true. Jesus was suffering wrong at the hands of wicked men. It is the example of how we should endure that kind of suffering if it comes our way. But this does not tells us what God was feeling and why.

The "example" of how we should endure suffering, leads us to understanding how God feels and why,

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phil.3:10

Paul wasn't speaking of someone other than God.

I understand God's pain better because I asked Him what he suffered and He gave me a bit of insight. Any more and it would have killed me. He was not suffering because he was suffering. He was not feeling sorry for Himself. There are no words in the languages of men to describe what God was feeling as Jesus suffered on the cross. I cannot express it.

I'm sure we don't know the depth of Gods' feelings, but God gave every human being a brain with five senses and by those alone, any parent can understand the sorrow of sin against a child. People are able to feel grief for others, without feeling sorry of themselves.

On a lesser level what He suffers when we do wrong is not what we think it would be if we were suffering wrong. When we suffer wrong we feel sorry for ourselves that we have to suffer. Sometimes we are angry that we have to suffer. God is never angry that He has to suffer. He is angry because wrong is evil and does great harm to many as well as aids the enemy.

No child can be taught right from wrong. What is right or what is wrong is taught, but the concept cannot be taught. But your second sentence said it well. People have a moral sense. We all do. We cannot help it.

On the lesser lever you mentioned, we should think of those sufferings as how God feels, because we're one body in him.

I say unto you, Love your enemies Mt.5:44

Of course God teaches us more about himself, as we yield to his Spirit.

But let me ask you, why is right without using any reference to anyone else?

I don't know what you mean by this. I've been referring to Jesus all along.

If you tell a child not to do something because it’s wrong, and they as “what is wrong” how would you answer?

I answer people as I've been taught. What is your point?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We learn from Jesus how our Father feels. Like this,

how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings Mt.23:37

Great answer. I agree. But that isn’t how He felt at the crucifixion. He has more than one emotion.

The "example" of how we should endure suffering, leads us to understanding how God feels and why,

No, I disagree. For example, God says “vengeance is mine” does not tells us how God endures. He doesn’t endure as we do when He tells us not to seek vengeance. He also tells us not to judge but He does judge and there are different feelings we have as compared to his feelings in the matter.

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phil.3:10

Absolutely!! Amen!! But looking at Jesus will not tell us this and Paul didn’t think so either. Or rather only on the surface.

Paul wasn't speaking of someone other than God.

I'm sure we don't know the depth of Gods' feelings, but God gave every human being a brain with five senses and by those alone, any parent can understand the sorrow of sin against a child.

That is not what He felt. His “child” was a grown man who made a choice. He wasn’t a victim. What is more, he was doing God’s will. It isn’t the same.

People are able to feel grief for others, without feeling sorry of themselves.

True and it’s rare but highly commendable.

On the lesser lever you mentioned, we should think of those sufferings as how God feels, because we're one body in him.

I never said that. I never would. Being united will not show any man he how God feels. Only He can share that personally and that is what Paul desired.

I say unto you, Love your enemies Mt.5:44

Of course God teaches us more about himself, as we yield to his Spirit.

Yes, exactly. Obedience brings understanding.

I don't know what you mean by this. I've been referring to Jesus all along.

I answer people as I've been taught. What is your point?

How do you explain what wrong us without any reference to anyone else? How would you explain wrong to a computer or robot? You said your parents taught you right from wrong. They could not do so. They can teach us what behavior is right or wrong but that concept is built in.