[_ Old Earth _] Homosexuality and nature

[Evointrinsic]

so the word that paul used in romans working that which is unnatural men with with men the man gave up their use for the women. doenst really mean unnatural but something else.

I've already answered this. "Natural" and "Unnatural" in that time was meant to describe something "Customary" or "Uncustomary". Once again, if you look at the context in which the bible was written, you will discover what it really means. You do know that all the stuff you read now is successive interpretations, right?

if the lord, i repeat, made gays by design or for your sake evolution did he plan for them to be gay?
why would the lord call it a sin? why not just say it out clearly so that his followers would now what is sin.

You might want to take evolution out of that since it is a completely different topic (and is not planned). Other wise that's a very good question! However that applies to other aspects as well, such as terminal diseases that people are born with, or mental illnesses that have no cure, and so on. Why would god allow these things?

I personally cannot answer that question. Perhaps it's another way to test an individual?

 

[Tina]

.

Funded by Christian Churches ? ... Please list them all down ...

They are sited in the articles, perhaps you should read them?

Forgot to add that other christian based foundations, such as the John Templeton Foundation also contributes to the same studies.

I only saw the name of one Catholic church sited in all of the articles .. But even if these are true Christian researchers and scientists and funded by churches, no one in their right mind will say for sure that their survey findings are exhaustive, final and conclusive ! ... No amount of science and studies can explain many spiritual experiences. People were resurrected from death in the Bible and it is still happening today. Can Science explain that ? ... Science claims there is no cure for cancer and Aids, but many people have been totally healed solely through prayers by the power of Christ. Can Science explain that ??

 

[Evointrinsic]

The devil does not show up with red eyes, sharp clawy fingers, two ugly horns or a hood on its head, or with his underwear over his clothes like some kind of spiderman ! ....

You see ... that's the different between an ATHEIST like you and CHRISTIANs like us. You do not know the spiritual things of the world. You have NO idea what the devil is and how it works, so quit expounding on something you know NOTHING about !!

Very true! so why not make me understand? Why not offer evidence for your claims? Why not prove to me and all atheists that it was indeed the devil doing the work, not the individual? You seem to make a lot of statements, but you dont seem to back those statements up.

I do not exlude nature as ONE of the causes of homosexuality... or what we deem as "genetic", something that runs in the family.

From what I can tell, you've been arguing that homosexuality isn't natural, unless I've misinterpreted your words.

PS: Genetics exist, it's not something that humans made up

But the stark contrast between YOUR belief and MY belief is that ... I absolutely believe that GOD is able to change even that "nature" that results in homosexuality ! ... You don't believe that and insist that homosexuals cannot be changed for good ...

Yes, and I realize you believe this, but you haven't offered valuable evidence as to make the statement true. Until you do, it's merely a claim.

I never said that God isn't able to change a person, I have said that it is possible for an individual to do what was previously described as what god did (which it comes to change in that sense). I've also stated - multiple times - that it may be possible for sexual attraction to change permanently. I don't know how many more times i need to show you that I've said this before you realize that I've said this.

In case you haven't noticed, the "some clouds that can gather electric charge" are also from God ! ... That's what Christians believe anyway ....

Not quite. Clouds are formed when water vapor in the air is cooled and condenses as part of the water cycle. We've known this for a good while now, in fact it's grade 5 science where I come from. However, it may be possible that the creation of the cycle was made by god, as there is no evidence that supports the contrary.

Scientific theories can come and go ... proved and disproved .... change or remain.

Not quite, you see when a scientific theory has evidence that shows that the theory is flawed, the theory is updated and becomes more accurate in describing what it originally was describing in the first place.

But our God never changes. The Bible says He is the Same God yesterday, today and forever ... If He has healed and delivered many gays before, He will absolutely be able to deliver many others in future. Question is, are gays willing to be changed and transformed? Do they believe that God can do it ? ... Or are they resigned to the deception that they are born that way, it is "natural" and they can never change, they have to live as gays all their lives ???

Very correct, unfortunately your religion in it's entirety seems to constantly diverge. After all there is roughly 30,000 denominations. In fact there's so much division over the same religion, I can hardly keep track of which people believe in what of the same religion. Also, this

it is "natural" and they can never change

is why i think you don't accept to the natural properties of homosexuality

They could even burn in hell but should I really care ???

You could care less if trillions of organisms are burning in hell for eternity for absolutely nothing? And here I was taught morality can come with religion.

My church has counselled and dealt with all these kinds of people for more than 10 years now and they have never encountered a single gay person whom they have found impossible to deal with ....

Welcome to the power of suppression and the human mind. Not only that, but your speculating that the people who left didn't simply lie about their change (as I am sure there are at least a few)

 

[Evointrinsic]

I only saw the name of one Catholic church sited in all of the articles .. But even if these are true Christian researchers and scientists and funded by churches, no one in their right mind will say for sure that their survey findings are exhaustive, final and conclusive ! ... No amount of science and studies can explain many spiritual experiences. People were resurrected from death in the Bible and it is still happening today. Can Science explain that ? ... Science claims there is no cure for cancer and Aids, but many people have been totally healed solely through prayers by the power of Christ. Can Science explain that ??

That's because not all of them are actual experiments, but articles about psychology and prayer. The science studies aren't attempting to explain the spiritual experiences, they are trying to prove them (which they aren't doing well at that).

Could you site your claims that there are resurrections in these days? I've never heard of any, you'd think it would be big news.

Science does not sclaim there is no cure for cancer or aids, they do however claim there is no current cure for them. There's quite a difference in those. Also, I've already shown in other topics that some people have acquired mutations in specific genes that makes them immune to contracting HIV. There is quite a few articles on the advancements of the medicine in both areas. Would you like the links to those?

 

[jasoncran]

so the word that paul used in romans working that which is unnatural men with with men the man gave up their use for the women. doenst really mean unnatural but something else.[/quote]

I've already answered this. "Natural" and "Unnatural" in that time was meant to describe something "Customary" or "Uncustomary". Once again, if you look at the context in which the bible was written, you will discover what it really means. You do know that all the stuff you read now is successive interpretations, right?
so then answer to me why then werent the gentiles warned by that. he was adressing both the jew and the gentile in romans 1. i am sorry i know context. then why was death for those violated that law when in customs like you said and when broken a a cleansing rite was done, not death.

if the lord, i repeat, made gays by design or for your sake evolution did he plan for them to be gay?
why would the lord call it a sin? why not just say it out clearly so that his followers would now what is sin.

You might want to take evolution out of that since it is a completely different topic (and is not planned). Other wise that's a very good question! However that applies to other aspects as well, such as terminal diseases that people are born with, or mental illnesses that have no cure, and so on. Why would god allow these things?
simple sin, man sinned and all of the earth and man and animals paid for it.
I personally cannot answer that question. Perhaps it's another way to test an individual?

 

[Evointrinsic]

so the word that paul used in romans working that which is unnatural men with with men the man gave up their use for the women. doenst really mean unnatural but something else.

I've already answered this. "Natural" and "Unnatural" in that time was meant to describe something "Customary" or "Uncustomary". Once again, if you look at the context in which the bible was written, you will discover what it really means. You do know that all the stuff you read now is successive interpretations, right?

so then answer to me why then werent the gentiles warned by that. he was adressing both the jew and the gentile in romans 1. i am sorry i know context. then why was death for those violated that law when in customs like you said and when broken a a cleansing rite was done, not death.

You'll have to address this to a theologian to acquire a better answer than I can give.

For the rest of your post, you'll have to correctly quote it before I can figure out what exactly your referring to. It was a bit messed up in your latest one.

 

[Tina]

.

Very true! so why not make me understand? Why not offer evidence for your claims? Why not prove to me and all atheists that it was indeed the devil doing the work, not the individual? You seem to make a lot of statements, but you dont seem to back those statements up.

The gay ministry in my church sometimes cast out the demon behind homosexuality. I'm not saying that all homosexuals are demon possessed, but there certainly is a possibly that some could be oppressed by sexual spirits, and mere counselling will not help. I'll look for some testimonies for you ....

Welcome to the power of suppression and the human mind. Not only that, but your speculating that the people who left didn't simply lie about their change (as I am sure there are at least a few)

Go ahead and reduce prayers to some form of power of suppression and the human mind... if that will help you to sleep better !

Even if what you said is true and they never really changed, I would have stopped seeing the ex-gays in church by now. I know who they are and they are still very glad to be part of our church. My church is one that makes a strong stand against homosexuality and it's propably the one church in my country that gays hate ! .... It's being bashed by gays on the net. I have sent you PMs and you know my church name, you can google and see for yourself ....

 

[jasoncran]

the power of prayer reduced to suggestion, really.

if thats the case why bother serving the lord.
is he so small that he cant even by his power heal. if so then why trust him to save. for the lord said that the power to heal and to forgive sins is the same!

trust me. tina has a point if a gay man were doing what they do(change) by suggestion. then my friend robbie who never been with a girl before his deliverance and stuggled to stop lusting after men, would surely have given up. instead he didnt and he aslo went the other way.

only by the power of the lord can a man change in this area.

 

[Evointrinsic]

Oops, double post

 

[Evointrinsic]

The gay ministry in my church sometimes cast out the demon behind homosexuality. I'm not saying that all homosexuals are demon possessed, but there certainly is a possibly that some could be oppressed by sexual spirits, and mere counselling will not help. I'll look for some testimonies for you

Ok, I'll see some testimonies But out of curiosity, how do you know it's demonic possession?

Go ahead and reduce prayers to some form of power of suppression and the human mind... if that will help you to sleep better !

It's not that, But the fact that suppression can do the exact same thing leads me to believe it may be more likely. I have done a bit of research on prayers, but I haven't found anything yet to show that they actually work. I have found a lot of Psychological and Neurological studies on the effects of prayer, though, that seem rather sound. I'm not saying that prayer absolutely doesn't work, but I am saying that (currently) other possibilities may be the more dominant answer to what prayers are given credit to.

Even if what you said is true and they never really changed, I would have stopped seeing the ex-gays in church by now. I know who they are and they are still very glad to be part of our church. My church is one that makes a strong stand against homosexuality and it's propably the one church in my country that gays hate ! .... It's being bashed by gays on the net. I have sent you PMs and you know my church name, you can google and see for yourself ....

I'm not quite sure about this actually. I know a lot of atheists that go to church just because they enjoy it. I've also witnessed a few of families that have gone through the incident of having one member "come out of the closet" and try to hide this factor from everyone else. So it could also be because they want to make other people believe that they still aren't gay. And of course they may also not be gay anymore, is another possibility, but it certainly isn't the only one.

the power of prayer reduced to suggestion, really.

if thats the case why bother serving the lord.
is he so small that he cant even by his power heal. if so then why trust him to save. for the lord said that the power to heal and to forgive sins is the same!

Once again, I'm not saying that prayer doesn't do anything, but there are other factors that praying may be getting credit for. Until there is a valuable and conclusive study over it, it will be difficult to show that prayer is the cause for certain outcomes.

 

[Tina]

.

Check out this video interview and testimony ---->>> Sarah Yang

She's a former lesbian and she shares her whole story, how and why she became a lesbian, how she was set free, and her gruelling experience of having to go through 4 hours of intensive deliverance that included casting out of demons.

She's now a Pastor .....

 

[Evointrinsic]

Interesting story.

I noticed the part when she talked about her sexual abuse, and unfortunately she didn't explain whether or not it was before or after she had those feelings for women, so I'm not quite sure if we can consider this particular case as a choice or not (in the beginning at least). I did however say before

Don't get me wrong though, I can see individuals making a choice from a personal experience such as woman being in an abusive situation and simply be turned off of men because of that

Another really interesting part of that video was when she talked about dating straight girls, which relates quite a bit towards other studies (some in which I've already spoke of) when females (or males) are able to sway the same sex (with specific circumstances).

The entire video was very nice, Although I'm not quite sure we can conclusively say this is proof of anything demonic. You may be thinking "well she was saved after the riddance of these demons", but then again, that brings be back to the psychological points.

I read a while ago about a very interesting thing called "Voodoo Death"

This reflex is commonly seen during an episode called “the voodoo death.†In 1942, Harvard Medical School professor Walter Bradford Cannon published “’Voodoo’ Death†in American Anthropologist. The paper tries to find links to modern incidents of sudden death. It describes the phenomenon that occurs when someone, such as a medicine man, who claims to have the power to cause a paranormal death, actually causes someone to die. But the death is caused not by the medicine man’s power but by his victim’s fear – fear that the victim has no control over his or her own fate.

“A tribal elder, believed by the tribe to have magical powers, can point a stick at someone who did something bad and say ‘you’re going to die’ and the person passes out,†Kocheril said. “They don’t die all the time, but they certainly drop.â€

Source

From what we know in the field of psychology, it is quite possible that the same phenomenon is occurring when it comes to spiritual healing or exorcism or what have you. The only reason medical science doesn't consider any of these things actual treatments is because there isn't any physical proof of them actually doing anything. Not only that, but because of our understanding of psychology, it is very possible that this would be the real cause of things.

Don't get me wrong though, i don't mean to say there is no such thing, i'm just saying that we don't have hard evidence as of yet, and we do have evidence of other things that are capable of doing the same thing.

 

[jasoncran]

evo, one cant proove a spiritual being. to do so is futile. a demon is a spirit like the God.

you're trying to understand this from a scientific angle. until you come to knowledge of the saving grace. you cant understand.

not to insuenate that you are stupid, just only by faith can these things be understood.


until then we will head in circles.

 

[Evointrinsic]

I see, so then how can you confidently say that these things were caused by demons?

 

[jasoncran]

I see, so then how can you confidently say that these things were caused by demons?

it's something that we come to see by faith and learning from the bible.

i dont believe that all gays are demon possesed as that doenst just happen to them.

we believe that the holy spirit dwells in us, in that he will let us know that a demon in near. and most demons cringe when the name of the lord is mentioned.THEY FEAR that NAME!

in the bible recall that demon possesed ran to the Lord and told him has he come to torment us before the time, and obeyed him where he would send them.

 

[Evointrinsic]

ok, So then after all of this; Homosexuality, Do you believe it is or isn't natural? And explain, please

 

[jasoncran]

ok, So then after all of this; Homosexuality, Do you believe it is or isn't natural? And explain, please

i dont believe that is natural as the lord didnt make men or woman that way. it's sin

for me to claim to gay is natural is akin to say that in the bible that we were planned to die even before the fall. if you read in the book of revalation. the earth isnt the same and that tree of life shows up again and the lord is on the earth. and dwells with men, just like the genesis account said to a degree.


if we use what you say natural is, then those brethren the hasidic who try to keep the torah as close as possible must be bigots as well.

 

[jasoncran]

both the hasidic and orthodox jew call gay being a sin, interesting. the latter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_topics_and_Judaism

hmm. paul is a jew a pharisee of the pharisee. yet he knew the ot customs well. surely he would know what "custom" was verses a sin worthy of death. and i trust paul as if i doubt his books then why should i even bother with the rest?

 

[Evointrinsic]

What about "Natural Sin", I've heard the term before but don't quite know what it means. could you explain?

 

[jasoncran]

What about "Natural Sin", I've heard the term before but don't quite know what it means. could you explain?

original sin.

meaning since the fall that all men and women are born with the nature to sin, not the knowledge of how to sin. this doenst negate the fact the God made adam and eve, and called marriage good.
or that what he calls sin is sin, only that we cant be good enough to meet his standards thus the need for the death and ressurection of christ.