[_ Old Earth _] Homosexuality and nature

[Evointrinsic]

Ah yes, my mistake, "original sin" :D I suppose it doesn't really apply then :halo

Then I suppose the only way you'd be able to believe this would be for you to accept an old earth, as well as evolution :D Which i have my high doubts on

 

[jasoncran]

Ah yes, my mistake, "original sin" :D I suppose it doesn't really apply then :halo

Then I suppose the only way you'd be able to believe this would be for you to accept an old earth, as well as evolution :D Which i have my high doubts on

that homosexuality is normal?

not even barb has commented on this and he accepts evolutuion.

makes ya wonder.

whether or not the earth is older then i believe and evo is true. that doenst change the fact that sin is sin.

 

[Evointrinsic]

lol, I would hardly say that his absents in a topic gives any sway to his opinion on the matter.

Another question can come up though, and that is, why would God allow even the possibility of any form of sin?

 

[Tina]

.

I noticed the part when she talked about her sexual abuse, and unfortunately she didn't explain whether or not it was before or after she had those feelings for women, so I'm not quite sure if we can consider this particular case as a choice or not (in the beginning at least).

I think she mentioned in the video that she was sexually abused as a child, before she went on share that she became a gay. She also mentioned that her parents very much wanted a boy and she was brought up as a boy. Her story was related in chronological order and I thought the sequence of events were pretty clear ...

The entire video was very nice, Although I'm not quite sure we can conclusively say this is proof of anything demonic. You may be thinking "well she was saved after the riddance of these demons", but then again, that brings be back to the psychological points.

Actually one thing that she did not mention in the video, but which she did mentioned in person and wrote about in her book, is the specific names of the sexual spirits that tormented her ----->>>> Incubus and Succubus ..... This was revealed by the Holy Spirit before they were expelled from her.

I read a while ago about a very interesting thing called "Voodoo Death"

This reflex is commonly seen during an episode called “the voodoo death.†In 1942, Harvard Medical School professor Walter Bradford Cannon published “’Voodoo’ Death†in American Anthropologist. The paper tries to find links to modern incidents of sudden death. It describes the phenomenon that occurs when someone, such as a medicine man, who claims to have the power to cause a paranormal death, actually causes someone to die. But the death is caused not by the medicine man’s power but by his victim’s fear – fear that the victim has no control over his or her own fate.

“A tribal elder, believed by the tribe to have magical powers, can point a stick at someone who did something bad and say ‘you’re going to die’ and the person passes out,†Kocheril said. “They don’t die all the time, but they certainly drop.â€

Source

It's actually pretty ironical that you would bring up this example of voodoo and witchcraft. These are in the Bble and are of the devil, and is a clear example of curses or spells .... which Christians believe can only be broken and the evil spirits removed through prayers and deliverance. But of course, you might say this is just one psychological factor working against another ....

Don't get me wrong though, i don't mean to say there is no such thing, i'm just saying that we don't have hard evidence as of yet, and we do have evidence of other things that are capable of doing the same thing.

The only evidence is personal encounters .... Tell you what, if you are really keen, I'd start praying for you right away. Don't be alarmed if you begin to experience spooky things from now on, perhaps you will hear voices, feel something near you that makes your hair stand, or even see an ugly vision of something just like your own avatar !


:biglol

 

[jasoncran]

lol, I would hardly say that his absents in a topic gives any sway to his opinion on the matter.
no, but if you had a point i'm sure that he would add his two cents.
Another question can come up though, and that is, why would God allow even the possibility of any form of sin?

free will. if we cant choose him then we must be only robots.

 

[Bronzesnake]

That's an interesting statement considering the bible was written by men.

That’s the opinion of an atheist. Are you truly unaware of the origins of scripture, or are you really that ignorant on the subject Evo?
2 Timothy 3:16 says that all Scripture is “God-breathed†(NIV) or “given by inspiration of God†(KJV). The Greek word here is theopneustos, which is a compound word made of theos (God) and a derivative of pneo (pertaining to 'breath' or 'wind' -- from where we get our words pneumatic and pneumonia). So while these were imperfect men, the words they recorded were not their own.
Homosexuality is not an addiction. Alcoholics aren't born to crave alcohol, they are introduced to alcohol, then they become alcoholics.
So you have scientific proof that homosexuality is a genetic trait then?
Or, are you simply adlibbing as evolutionists are known to do so often?
Tell me, evolutionarily speaking, what environmental conditions could possibly have existed to cause a genetic mutation for homosexuality – a mutation which could potentially put an end to humanity?

Kleptomania is also edging closer to addictive and mood disorders as well as usually manifesting during puberty, This condition isn't born with the individual.

Out of no disrespect Jason, you need to reread the comments you leave, I found that one quite difficult to read because of the errors. I think your thinking faster than your typing
Evo, people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. Have you looked at some of your own ?
Look here for example - This condition isn't born with the individual.
And here - I think your thinking faster than your typing.
Let’s stop acting like we’re superior to another because we foolishly believe our grammar is better than someone else’s ok?
We can understand what each other means, so let’s just stick to discussions relevant to the subject.

Jason is an excellent source for this subject and he’s been brave and honest enough to share his experiences. Unless you have your own gay experiences from which to draw from, I suggest you let the evidence speak for itself.
I have known several men who have turned away from homosexual life styles and all have come to Jesus and have all admitted the lifestyle was motivated by nothing more than lust.
God does not create people with a genetic condition which He then will condemn them to hell for.

As far as how Christians should approach homosexual people – we must treat everyone with the same respect. However, we are also called on by Jesus to warn anyone who is engaged in any sin which will cause them to lose their eternal salvation. We are not here to judge, or to hammer people down, but we must care about our brothers and sisters who are heading down the wrong path with love and respect.

As for Christians - there is no getting around it, God is very clear on where He stands on homosexuality, adultery, murder, thieves, liars etc.

The unique issue with some homosexuals is that some of them do love Jesus, and they want to be good Christians, however they are under the misconception that God loves all people, which He does, but they go wrong is believing that because God loves them, that they can engage in any sinful activity and God will accept them into His eternal Kingdom. This is sadly not true.

God will no more legitimize gay marriage at His alter then He would adulterous marriage.
The good news is that God will forgive any who come to Him and ask for forgiveness as He did when Mary was almost stoned to death.
Jesus told her that He forgave her, but He also warned her to stop being a prostitute.
A lot of people leave that last part out when they argue that Jesus forgives homosexuality and want use that scripture to legitimize their continuance in that life style.

Bronzesnake

 

[jasoncran]

bronzesnake he is correct on that when i get excited i do tend to type fast.

 

[Bronzesnake]

bronzesnake he is correct on that when i get excited i do tend to type fast.

I have a problem when someone attacks another person for sins he is equally guilty of.
I also don't like it when people get attacked for spelling or grammar just for the pleasure of pointing it out.
He understands what you mean, as do I, so what is his real motive for pointing out your grammar/spelling when his is also bad?

Anyway, we digress...

Bronzesnake

 

[jasoncran]

agreed.

 

[Evointrinsic]

Don't get me wrong though, i don't mean to say there is no such thing, i'm just saying that we don't have hard evidence as of yet, and we do have evidence of other things that are capable of doing the same thing.

The only evidence is personal encounters .... Tell you what, if you are really keen, I'd start praying for you right away. Don't be alarmed if you begin to experience spooky things from now on, perhaps you will hear voices, feel something near you that makes your hair stand, or even see an ugly vision of something just like your own avatar !

I would like that :D Please do!

free will. if we cant choose him then we must be only robots.

Ah, ok

That's an interesting statement considering the bible was written by men.

That’s the opinion of an atheist. Are you truly unaware of the origins of scripture, or are you really that ignorant on the subject Evo?

Ah, Bronzesnake, I was wondering why you haven't replied to this topic yet. I'm pretty sure Christian and Atheists agree that man wrote the bible. I never said it isn't inspired from god, did I? Regardless if it was inspired from god or not, man wrote the bible.

"Homosexuality is not an addiction. Alcoholics aren't born to crave alcohol, they are introduced to alcohol, then they become alcoholics. "

So you have scientific proof that homosexuality is a genetic trait then?
Or, are you simply adlibbing as evolutionists are known to do so often?
Tell me, evolutionarily speaking, what environmental conditions could possibly have existed to cause a genetic mutation for homosexuality – a mutation which could potentially put an end to humanity?

You don't need genetic proof of anything to declare if it's an addiction or not. Are you calling Heterosexuality an addiction?

If you take a look at one of the videos I posted, it offers examples of why homosexuality may be a positive trait. "Evolutionarily speaking" though, it's rather a dead end trait in humans. A trait needs to reproduce to become more dominant, and although homosexuals have and do have children with persons of the opposite sex some times, it's still a rather failure of a trait. Usually, natural selection will weed out the "weaker" traits and it will be diminished. So technically anything can arise for relatively no purpose, and if it isn't a dominant trait in survival, then it doesn't make it far.

Potentially put an end to humanity? That's incredibly unlikely. Why? because heterosexuality (in this case) is a much more dominant trait. Even if homosexuality could some how overrun a species, I've already listed some species that only have females in their race, regardless, they are still the same species.

"Out of no disrespect Jason, you need to reread the comments you leave, I found that one quite difficult to read because of the errors. I think your thinking faster than your typing"

Evo, people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. Have you looked at some of your own ?
Look here for example - This condition isn't born with the individual.
And here - I think your thinking faster than your typing.
Let’s stop acting like we’re superior to another because we foolishly believe our grammar is better than someone else’s ok?
We can understand what each other means, so let’s just stick to discussions relevant to the subject.

Throwing stones? Notice how I said "of no disrespect". as in it isn't meant to be an insult. I'm not saying I have better grammar either. I actually couldn't understand what he meant, so yeah, i'm pretty sure that comment was necessary, and as you can see, Jason acknowledges this. Not only that, but his acknowledgment confirms the thought "I think your thinking faster than your typing" which I can not see how that could ever be considered an insult.

Jason is an excellent source for this subject and he’s been brave and honest enough to share his experiences. Unless you have your own gay experiences from which to draw from, I suggest you let the evidence speak for itself.
I have known several men who have turned away from homosexual life styles and all have come to Jesus and have all admitted the lifestyle was motivated by nothing more than lust.
God does not create people with a genetic condition which He then will condemn them to hell for.

And I agree, Jason is a very good source for this topic. If you've actually read the entire topic (perhaps you have and misread a bit), I constantly speak of my Gay friends (male and female), of which I have quite a few. Jason can provide as much evidence as he wants to, I still have a right to question it.

As for "God does not create people with a genetic condition which He then will condemn them to hell for"

Jason already answered this one.
"free will. if we cant choose him then we must be only robots."

I've already agreed that later on, people can make a choice to be healed or psychologically suppress their homosexuality. So it can potentially not be a "for life" deal.

As far as how Christians should approach homosexual people – we must treat everyone with the same respect. However, we are also called on by Jesus to warn anyone who is engaged in any sin which will cause them to lose their eternal salvation. We are not here to judge, or to hammer people down, but we must care about our brothers and sisters who are heading down the wrong path with love and respect.

And I have no problem with that. Unfortunately, some people use religion as a tool for hatred (obviously not all or even a little, but a few, yes). And some people (generally religious people) misunderstand this so much that they end up murdering these homosexual people.

Once again, touching on the grammar thing. I wrote that comment because I couldn't make out what he was trying to say. Would you have rather be completely ignore is post? or ask politely (in which I did) if he could rewrite that. I agree, my grammar isn't absolutely fantastic. but if I wrote something that someone couldn't understand, I would recognize that and alter it for that person to read without a second thought. not only that, but i wouldn't call that person an arrogant individual simply because he or she said that, like you have Bronzesnake...

 

[jasoncran]

for the record i have no problem persons questioning my views on gays and gay rights. while i dont believe in the lifestyle, or rights, it's a sin, and also we mustn't forget that they are still human and in need of a savior.

i do know all too well how we christians treat them terriblely.
but gay rights is something all together another topic.

 

[Bronzesnake]

Potentially put an end to humanity? That's incredibly unlikely. Why? because heterosexuality (in this case) is a much more dominant trait. Even if homosexuality could some how overrun a species, I've already listed some species that only have females in their race, regardless, they are still the same species.

Well, if it’s a genetic mutation, then the possibility exists that we will all someday become homosexuals and thus end humanity.

Throwing stones? Notice how I said "of no disrespect". as in it isn't meant to be an insult. I'm not saying I have better grammar either. I actually couldn't understand what he meant, so yeah, i'm pretty sure that comment was necessary, and as you can see, Jason acknowledges this. Not only that, but his acknowledgment confirms the thought "I think your thinking faster than your typing" which I can not see how that could ever be considered an insult.

If you can’t understand what he was writing then you may have a problem because I understand him perfectly and I’m pretty sure we both understand how to read English.

And I agree, Jason is a very good source for this topic. If you've actually read the entire topic (perhaps you have and misread a bit), I constantly speak of my Gay friends (male and female), of which I have quite a few. Jason can provide as much evidence as he wants to, I still have a right to question it.

I’m not saying you don’t. I am disagreeing with your assertion that it is genetic and not a choice.

As for "God does not create people with a genetic condition which He then will condemn them to hell for"

Jason already answered this one.
"free will. if we cant choose him then we must be only robots."

If you are born with a genetic predisposition to homosexuality then the choice had already been made. Therefore eliminating any free will.

I've already agreed that later on, people can make a choice to be healed or psychologically suppress their homosexuality. So it can potentially not be a "for life" deal.

Again, it can’t be your “choice†if God already made the choice for you by creating you genetically gay.

And I have no problem with that. Unfortunately, some people use religion as a tool for hatred (obviously not all or even a little, but a few, yes). And some people (generally religious people) misunderstand this so much that they end up murdering these homosexual people.

Are you inferring that atheists are innocent? That they don’t ever hate, or murder?
I find that comment extremely distasteful and offensive Evo. I don’t know of any real Christian who has ever murdered a person for being gay, how about you?

This is a common habit for atheists, accusing religious people of being the cause of all hatred, intolerance and war etc.You would be surprised to know that some of the greatest mass murderers of history have been atheists. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot. The fact is that humans murder Evo, and some are atheists and some claim to be religious such as Muslims and Christians. In reality, those unrepentant Christians who have murdered will face the fires of Hell for their sins. The Bible condemns murder Evo I suspect you know this.

Once again, touching on the grammar thing. I wrote that comment because I couldn't make out what he was trying to say. Would you have rather be completely ignore is post? or ask politely (in which I did) if he could rewrite that. I agree, my grammar isn't absolutely fantastic. but if I wrote something that someone couldn't understand, I would recognize that and alter it for that person to read without a second thought. not only that, but i wouldn't call that person an arrogant individual simply because he or she said that, like you have Bronzesnake...

I may find that almost believable Evo if you hadn’t have ended your post the way you did...
"Out of no disrespect Jason, you need to reread the comments you leave, I found that one quite difficult to read because of the errors. I think your thinking faster than your typing"
That last line is extremely condescending Evo and you know it.

Take care Evo

Bronzesnake

 

[jasoncran]

evo, bronzesnake i am quite able to speak and write for myself. if i took offense as a mod or not i would have said that. i didnt because if you really look at some the mistakes i made and know my stance on homosexuality , you would say whats up with him. that has to be a mistake,jwu caught that.
that is why i took no offense, this subject is touchy for me.

 

[Evointrinsic]

Potentially put an end to humanity? That's incredibly unlikely. Why? because heterosexuality (in this case) is a much more dominant trait. Even if homosexuality could some how overrun a species, I've already listed some species that only have females in their race, regardless, they are still the same species.

Well, if it’s a genetic mutation, then the possibility exists that we will all someday become homosexuals and thus end humanity.

I'm sorry, but that's a misconception. A single dominant mutation is not a factor in deciding what is or isn't a species.

If you can’t understand what he was writing then you may have a problem because I understand him perfectly and I’m pretty sure we both understand how to read English.

Welcome to the differences in people Bronzesnake. You may understand something over an error, that doesn't mean others will.

I’m not saying you don’t. I am disagreeing with your assertion that it is genetic and not a choice.

Would you care to show how it is always a choice then?

If you are born with a genetic predisposition to homosexuality then the choice had already been made. Therefore eliminating any free will.

Not if you are able to choose to change that (in whichever way) afterwords. Then it's quite obviously a choice in the end, if one did choose to reject that part of them.

Again, it can’t be your “choice†if God already made the choice for you by creating you genetically gay.

And how do you know it isn't just another test to verify ones love for god?

Are you inferring that atheists are innocent? That they don’t ever hate, or murder?
I find that comment extremely distasteful and offensive Evo. I don’t know of any real Christian who has ever murdered a person for being gay, how about you?

Not at all, anyone regardless of theistic views or not, are capable and have (in some cases) hated or murdered. You shouldn't be offended, because I never said, nor implied that. You made yourself believe I did. I was simply referring to the select individuals that have used ANY religions as a source tool in such ways. Those people disturb me quite a bit, as I am sure they do you, as well.

I don't know of any Christians that have murdered anyone, personally. But, unfortunately, that doesn't mean none have. Do you honestly think no Christians, or any individual has used Christianity as a tool for hatred?

This is a common habit for atheists, accusing religious people of being the cause of all hatred, intolerance and war etc.You would be surprised to know that some of the greatest mass murderers of history have been atheists. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot. The fact is that humans murder Evo, and some are atheists and some claim to be religious such as Muslims and Christians. In reality, those unrepentant Christians who have murdered will face the fires of Hell for their sins. The Bible condemns murder Evo I suspect you know this.

Your biased views of atheists are guiding you to believing that I am implying things that I am in fact not. This is, however, for another topic, and we are not talking (at all) about which view point is better or worse. So I suggest making a new topic if you want to discuss it further.

I may find that almost believable Evo if you hadn’t have ended your post the way you did...
"Out of no disrespect Jason, you need to reread the comments you leave, I found that one quite difficult to read because of the errors. I think your thinking faster than your typing"
That last line is extremely condescending Evo and you know it.

I am sorry you feel that way, but that was not my intention. I too often catch myself thinking faster than I am typing, ending up with difficult to understand sentences.

 

[jasoncran]

evo, god isnt so cruel to do that.
he is agianst the sex outside of marriage but not the hetero sex in a marriage.

 

[Evointrinsic]

Actually, I think it may be a reasonable, debatable topic. Both of us know that we cannot know for sure what god's plan really is, so we both know we can't say that we know what it is. It is quite possible in either circumstance. Which is why I'm not saying that "this is the way god has planned", I'm just bringing up other possibilities.

 

[jasoncran]

Actually, I think it may be a reasonable, debatable topic. Both of us know that we cannot know for sure what god's plan really is, so we both know we can't say that we know what it is. It is quite possible in either circumstance. Which is why I'm not saying that "this is the way god has planned", I'm just bringing up other possibilities.

no, why would the lord "test" us in that area.

you arent a christian, and as such aren't able to see these things through the holy spirit.
using your thinking should a person, build charachter by amputating limbs?

hmm. God allows evil, yes, build he didnt intend for it. he lets it happen for a reason, so that we love him by a choice.

we cant on our own be of a good enough charachter to please God.

prior salvation, i could care less about the lord, and pleasing him. after that i want to please him, though i havent the ability on my own .

ever heard of this verse spoken by the lord?

for the flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing.

 

[Evointrinsic]

Actually, I think it may be a reasonable, debatable topic. Both of us know that we cannot know for sure what god's plan really is, so we both know we can't say that we know what it is. It is quite possible in either circumstance. Which is why I'm not saying that "this is the way god has planned", I'm just bringing up other possibilities.

no, why would the lord "test" us in that area.

As said by many Christians "His ways and thinking is higher than ours".

you arent a christian, and as such aren't able to see these things through the holy spirit.
using your thinking should a person, build charachter by amputating limbs?

Nice analogy! Although I wouldn't say it's quite the same thing. The story of Job has quite a bit of relation, however. The only real difference is that the test starts with birth rather than after someone has everything.

hmm. God allows evil, yes, build he didnt intend for it. he lets it happen for a reason, so that we love him by a choice.

How could he not intend for it? He's all knowing! we would have already known it was going to happen, would he not? In my other topic, I asked two questions as to why god put the forbidden fruit in the garden of Edan, and why he made Lucifer. He would have obviously known that the forbidden fruit would be eaten, and Lucifer would betray god. So god, in a sense, intentionally made evil, not simply "allows" it. Why would this be any less of another test than evil and free will?

 

[jasoncran]

negative.

heres why, we are tested so that we become "better" we are already have obtained salvation. its for his glory that we go through trials.not so much ourselves. the process of santification is the burning of the dross so that the inner man(christ) is shown more and more.

with a person being born gay, that is cruel, as they would have to submit and deny what is natural to them in order to get saved. the bible says to flee from all sin.its better to avoid sin then to taste and see that you have the strenght to resist that stuff.

while they may have the strong desire to sin in that area, and that like any sin, NEEDS divine intervention to cease.
does the lord then make alcoholics? what he say on being a drunkard? avoid it, and repent.the excuse i'm sure that you will agree the devil made me do it wont hold in court. neither before the white throne


if god made adam to sin so that we can change makes no sense. as that has no biblical basis.

God warned adam and eve not eat of the tree. he allows free will, the first humans choose death over GOD.


and its not God works in mysterious ways.its my ways are higher then your ways and my thoughts are higher then your thoughts.

 

[Evointrinsic]

But that's the confusing part; he knew that they were going to take the fruit, and he still put the fruit there, and he knew that after they had taken the fruit that all successive humans after that would have such a burden. Doesn't that just mean that he either

A) Planned for it
B) Is cruel because he did nothing to prevent it and let billions upon billions of people afterwords pay for two peoples ridiculous mistake?

The same questions could be asked of anything, such as Infant mortality for example. Why would god allow this to happen? In nations that are populated with a majority of christian families too (not always, obviously, but it does happen). It's either in his plan, or he is cruel. Right? I can't think of any other reasons, could you explain?