How Are We Made Right With God?

[Drew]

Salvation is based solely on Christ's work on the cross. Renewal by the Holy Spirit is speaking of regeneration....when we're born of the Spirit of God, and raised into newness of life. You really don't have a clue, do you?

Can you read english gd?

Listen to the exact words here.....

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to .....

What? What gd? What? What is the basis of salvation if not our own deeds, gd?

Now you simply cannot, or will accept what Paul says next, but here it is - here is the grounds on which we are saved according to Paul:

.......according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Once again, you commit lingustic homicide, gd, refusing to accept what Paul says, that salvation is achieved by regeneration and what gd? And what gd? Yes, gd, the "and" is there in sentence as much as you cannot allow it. The "and" means what it means. When someone says "we are saved by A and B", you cannot simply toss the B away. Now what is the "B" here - the stuff after the "and" that is at least part of "how we are saved"?

by renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Now you clearly deny this gd - Paul has clearly connected renewing by the Holy Spirit to salvation. But no, you will not have this. So what do have Paul saying?

Salvation is based solely on Christ's work on the cross. Renewal by the Holy Spirit is speaking of regeneration

This is simply not what Paul has said.

Now who really is the one without a clue?

 

[Drew]

I simply cannot believe what we have being put forward in this thread.

Here is the Titus text:

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

For the love of common sense, please read this carefully.

Paul is talking, yes about how we are saved. Not how we are regenerated in a manner that is not connceted to how we are saved.

The sentence structure is simple:

He saved us, not by A, but by B.

This is not rocket science - the "B" term tells us how we are indeed saved. That is how english works, for those of us who obey the laws of language. What is B?

It is this:

by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Now I want to be clear here. Paul is not saying "He saved us by regeneration and he renews us after that by the Holy Spirit" That is simply not how the phrasing works. If some says "He saved us by B", and B turns out to be = "washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit", we are obliged by the rules of english to understand that "renewing by the Holy Spirit" is part of the "B" that specifies how we are saved.

Gd, of course, cannot countenance this. So, apparently, she feels free to change the meaning to basically this: "He saved us by the washing of regeneration and then He (God) renews us by the Holy Spirit, but in a manner that is entirely disconnected from how we are saved".

This is simply not how the text reads - the rules of english composition cannot be simply set aside to force texts to mean what we want them to mean.

 

[Drew]

You whine and carry on about others "lying" about what you say,...

My claim is true - you have indeed lied.

And MM has lied as well.

This is not an opinion gd. Assuming that both you and MM know how to read, you must be lying since what you attribute to me cannot be discerned from what I actually have written. I have been so absolutely crystal clear that the "good works" that ulitmately justify us are attributable to the Holy Spirit that you would have to have a serious comprehension problem to not see this. And yet what have you said?:

You know you're stealing glory from God, by claiming His righteousness is now yours.

So, assuming your mental faculties are indeed intact there is no other explanation - you must be lying.

So, yes, I do complain about this. So, please tell us, why do you lie, gd?

 

[glorydaz]

Salvation is based solely on Christ's work on the cross. Renewal by the Holy Spirit is speaking of regeneration....when we're born of the Spirit of God, and raised into newness of life. You really don't have a clue, do you?

Can you read english gd?

Listen to the exact words here.....

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to .....

What? What gd? What? What is the basis of salvation if not our own deeds, gd?

Now you simply cannot, or will accept what Paul says next, but here it is - here is the grounds on which we are saved according to Paul:

.......according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Once again, you commit lingustic homicide, gd, refusing to accept what Paul says, that salvation is achieved by regeneration and what gd? And what gd? Yes, gd, the "and" is there in sentence as much as you cannot allow it. The "and" means what it means. When someone says "we are saved by A and B", you cannot simply toss the B away. Now what is the "B" here - the stuff after the "and" that is at least part of "how we are saved"?

by renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Now you clearly deny this gd - Paul has clearly connected renewing by the Holy Spirit to salvation. But no, you will not have this. So what do have Paul saying?

Salvation is based solely on Christ's work on the cross. Renewal by the Holy Spirit is speaking of regeneration

This is simply not what Paul has said.

Now who really is the one without a clue?

Regeneration is not your work, Drew. You don't get to take credit for what Christ did on the Cross, or what the Holy Spirit does in your life. Heck, next thing we know, you'll be taking credit for your own chastening. Spank yourself hard, Drew, because you keep trying to steal glory away from God.

We are raised into newness of life....being raised into newness of life is what happens when we're saved. Once we're raised into newness of life, and are born of God...new creatures...sons of God...Alive in Christ..under the law of the Spirit of Life........................then, and only then can we begin to show forth the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit does not contribute to our salvation...it is a result of our being saved. Strive to approach the Word of God using your spiritual understanding...if you don't, you will continue to have these little hissy-fits over sentence structure and the rules of English composition.

 

[Drew]

[Regeneration is not your work, Drew. You don't get to take credit for what Christ did on the Cross, or what the Holy Spirit does in your life.

You are a liar gd. Pure and simple.

You would have to be mentally incompetent to the point of not knowing how to read to not know that I have never written anything to this effect at all.

So you must be lying.

Please stop lying.

 

[Drew]

...if you don't, you will continue to have these little hissy-fits over sentence structure and the rules of English composition.

Silly old Drew, obeying the rules of english sentence structure. What could I be thinkng? Why not simply ignore the rules and thereby have the freedom to mold the sentences into whatever I want.

 

[glorydaz]

You whine and carry on about others "lying" about what you say,...

My claim is true - you have indeed lied.

And MM has lied as well.

This is not an opinion gd. Assuming that both you and MM know how to read, you must be lying since what you attribute to me cannot be discerned from what I actually have written. I have been so absolutely crystal clear that the "good works" that ulitmately justify us are attributable to the Holy Spirit that you would have to have a serious comprehension problem to not see this. And yet what have you said?:

You know you're stealing glory from God, by claiming His righteousness is now yours.

So, assuming your mental faculties are indeed intact there is no other explanation - you must be lying.

So, yes, I do complain about this. So, please tell us, why do you lie, gd?

It doesn't matter if you claim they are "attributable" to the Holy Spirit, you err greatly in saying they ultimately contribute to salvation. In your own little round-about way, you are still claiming your obedience to the Spirit saves you. It all gets back to man being responsible for his own salvation....frustrating the grace of God and claiming glory for yourself. It was Christ's obedience unto death...you weren't on the cross. Your righteousness, even with the Holy Spirit abiding in you, is not good enough. It must be the PERFECT righteousness of Christ that justifies man.

Since you have never accepted the righteousness of Christ for your justification, you are unable to come before the throne of God for spiritual understanding. It's only by the imputed righteousness of Christ that man can have access to God. The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit.....because He has not the Spirit within. No Spirit, no understanding of Spiritual things.

Man-up ....instead of whining and accusing us of lying because we don't let you get away with preaching a false gospel, you need to attribute your salvation to God. It was his gift to you...if you have it.
You're correct in saying you've been crystal clear...the problem is... you preach nothing but error. Not minor little error, but grace-denying error that cannot, not should it be, overlooked.

 

[glorydaz]

...if you don't, you will continue to have these little hissy-fits over sentence structure and the rules of English composition.

Silly old Drew, obeying the rules of english sentence structure. What could I be thinkng? Why not simply ignore the rules and thereby have the freedom to mold the sentences into whatever I want.

You just don't get it. The Gospel is not some complicated thing that needs to be pulled from one verse here and one verse there. It's clear and easily understood. Salvation is a free gift from God. Any deviation from that fact is a lie. You promote one lie after another. You preach a false gospel. You deny the grace of God, and promote a works-based salvation.

If you had the indwelling Spirit, you would not be preaching such error.
If your eyes weren't clouded by your fleshly mind, you'd be able to read each of those disputed verses rightly. They are very clear, but hidden from your view.

I'm sorry, Drew, but you make it more obvious with each passing day.
These things are spiritual...they must be spiritually discerned.

When you claim salvation is ultimately based on good deeds, you err.

When you claim you're justified by any righteousness besides that of Christ, you walk in unbelief.
When you claim Jesus is unable to save and to keep His own, you walk in doubt (unbelief).

 

[Drew]

It doesn't matter if you claim they are "attributable" to the Holy Spirit, you err greatly in saying they ultimately contribute to salvation. In your own little round-about way, you are still claiming your obedience to the Spirit saves you. It all gets back to man being responsible for his own salvation....

No.

If I assert, following Paul, that salvation is based on the work of Holy Spirit in my life, even though I must, in a sense "allow" the Spirit to do its work, I am not, in any reasonable sense, claiming responsibility for salvation.

One encounters this faulty argument all too often. The fact, that, yes, we must "act" in the sense of "yielding to the Spirit" does not make us responsible for our salvation.

That would be like someone saying that a heart transplant recipient is "responsible" for his own "salvation" (from death), when, in fact, we all know that it is the heart surgeon (and the dead person who has donated the heart) that are, in any reasonable sense, responsible for that person's "salvation".

 

[Drew]

It was Christ's obedience unto death...you weren't on the cross. Your righteousness, even with the Holy Spirit abiding in you, is not good enough. It must be the PERFECT righteousness of Christ that justifies man.

One cannot have a discussion with you - you repeatedly misrepresent what others say. You know full well that my view has Jesus' death on the cross as being smack dab in the center of the overall picture of how we wind up justified.

Since you have never accepted the righteousness of Christ for your justification, you are unable to come before the throne of God for spiritual understanding. It's only by the imputed righteousness of Christ that man can have access to God.

There is no Biblical evidence for the assertion that believers are imputed the righteousness of Christ.

Man-up ....instead of whining and accusing us of lying because we don't let you get away with preaching a false gospel, you need to attribute your salvation to God. It was his gift to you...if you have it.

You have lied.

I have called you on it.

The fact that we disagree about theology is another issue. This does not give you the right to lie.

You're correct in saying you've been crystal clear...the problem is... you preach nothing but error. Not minor little error, but grace-denying error that cannot, not should it be, overlooked.

You repeatedly misrepresent what I have posted. That is what the real problem is.

And you do the same to Paul - repeatedly changing his words.

 

[Drew]

You deny the grace of God, and promote a works-based salvation.

You bear false witness, gd. You know I have done no such thing.

Why are you misrepresenting my position, gd?

You know full well that if good works are the "gift" of the Holy Spirit, then those works are entirely a gift of grace.

 

[glorydaz]

[Regeneration is not your work, Drew. You don't get to take credit for what Christ did on the Cross, or what the Holy Spirit does in your life.

You are a liar gd. Pure and simple.

You would have to be mentally incompetent to the point of not knowing how to read to not know that I have never written anything to this effect at all.

So you must be lying.

Please stop lying.

If you persist in doing well, you will be given eternal life.....isn't that what you preach?
That's the religion of Humanism, Drew.

There's the proof you have no spiritual discernment. Eternal life is not something man can earn...it's a gift, and all your maneuvering will not change that fact. An incomplete Gospel is a false Gospel. You preach a false Gospel. You twist such verses to your own destruction.

Don't you deliberately leave out what Paul has said .... all men sin and come short of the glory of God, and therefore stand condemned? Don't you deliberately ignore Sin when you claim good deeds gain one eternal life? Of course you do. You ignore it to the point of absurdity. You ignore it and twist it and promote a false doctrine of salvation by works. One by which any would perish should they follow what you preach. You deny Christ's righteousness for justification and claim it as man's. You deny every verse that says it's not by man's righteousness but by the righteousness of Christ that man is saved. You deny the grace of God and claim salvation must be earned by man's obedience. You can call me a liar all day long, it won't scare me off or shut me up...I will continue to call you on your false teaching.

 

[Drew]

If you persist in doing well, you will be given eternal life.....isn't that what you preach?
That's the religion of Humanism, Drew.

There's the proof you have no spiritual discernment. Eternal life is not something man can earn...it's a gift, and all your maneuvering will not change that fact. An incomplete Gospel is a false Gospel. You preach a false Gospel. You twist such verses to your own destruction.

It is impossible to have any kind of interaction with someone who habitually and repeatedly lies.

You deny Christ's righteousness for justification and claim it as man's.

An out and out falsehood. I have never done this and I know you will not be able to substantiate this.

I deny that we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ. But that does not mean that I deny that Christ has indeed acted righteouslessly in a manner that basically procures ultimate salvation for all who do not turn their back on the Spirit and walk away.

Perhaps it is understandable that you do not know exactly what I mean by this.

But when you say that "I claim righteousness as man's", I can draw no other conclusion than that you are deliberately misrepresenting what I have posted.

This is because I have been so clear that the good works that ultimately justify us are not our own, but the work of the Holy Spirit.

So you must be intentionally trying to suggest that I hold a different position.

 

[glorydaz]

You deny the grace of God, and promote a works-based salvation.

You are a liar, gd. You know I have done no such thing.

Why are you lying, gd?

You know full well that if good works are the "gift" of the Holy Spirit, then those works are entirely a gift of grace.

Ah, entirely a gift. Entirely "Grace".

Those good works you do through the Holy Spirit do what exactly?
Give you eternal life, as you claim?

Do they take away your sins?
Do they raise you into newness of life?
Just how do they save you, Drew?
Just how do your good deeds, done through the Spirit, give you eternal life?

So man loses the gift if he fails to persist in doing good deeds?

How can man do these good deeds unless he's filled with the Spirit?
He has life when he's filled with the Spirit....so his good deeds do not impart life, do they?

No, they are a result of life. They do not contribute to his birth, they're simply the result of his being filled with the Holy Spirit of Life. So, salvation is not ultimately based on good deeds....Salvation is a gift and good deeds are the result of being saved. Do you see how such a slight twisting of the Word can change the entire picture? That's what you've done up to this point. Now you say salvation is a free gift of grace. Let's see if you can keep it there or if you have to add man's obedience to the gift and make it something that man merits.

 

[Drew]

Let's stop the accusations and return to the texts.

Consider this statement:

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Question: Do you agree that the Spirit only lives in believers. I assume that you do. Fine. So the "you" here mut be a reference to the believer.

Consider what Paul says next:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation....

Who are these brothers? Are they believers? Yes, beyond question - when Paul talking about a "you" that is a believer and then says "therefore brothers", Paul is clearly still addressing believers. Of course, you cannot allow this, and I am sure you will deny this.

In so doing, you radically change what Paul has actually written.

And then, of course, we have this statement clearly directed to these brothers:

we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

There is no doubt - you are changing the meaning of this entire text.

I, on the other hand, take it exactiy as it is written.

 

[Drew]

Those good works you do through the Holy Spirit do what exactly?
Give you eternal life, as you claim?

It is not me who claims this, it is Paul:

we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

You deny both these statements.

Why is that gd? Why do think Paul is mistaken in these two statements. You, of course, feel free to simply change these statements into something that is more to your liking. In the Romans 2 case, you claim the translators are all wrong.

The evidence you have provided for this: nada, squat, diddly, zip.

For the Romans 8 text, you simply decide that part of the warning is directed to unbelievers.

And in so doing, you violate the laws of how english statements work.

 

[glorydaz]

If you persist in doing well, you will be given eternal life.....isn't that what you preach?
That's the religion of Humanism, Drew.

There's the proof you have no spiritual discernment. Eternal life is not something man can earn...it's a gift, and all your maneuvering will not change that fact. An incomplete Gospel is a false Gospel. You preach a false Gospel. You twist such verses to your own destruction.

It is impossible to have any kind of interaction with someone who habitually and repeatedly lies.

You deny Christ's righteousness for justification and claim it as man's.

An out and out lie. I have never done this and I know you will not be able to substantiate this.

I deny that we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ. But that does not mean that I deny that Christ has indeed acted righteouslessly in a manner that basically procures ultimate salvation for all who do not turn their back on the Spirit and walk away.

Perhaps it is understandable that you do not know exacrtly what I mean by this.

But when you say that "I claim righteousness as man's", I can draw no other conclusion than that you are deliberately misrepresenting what I have posted.

This is because I have been so clear that the good works that ultimately justify us are not our own, but the work of the Holy Spirit.

So you must be intentionally trying to suggest that I hold a different position.

And that makes you, yes, a liar.

How old are you, Drew? You sound like such a child....."Liar" liar... pants on fire. :nag

If you deny it's the righteousness of Christ that gains us access to God then you're walking in darkness. You're doing exactly what the Jews did in going about to establish their own righteousness. What, is it just some righteousness pulled out of the big blue sky? If you think your spirit-empowered righteousness is gonna cover your flesh, then you will never be able to come before the throne of God, because you just aren't good enough...even on your best day.

Who lives in the believer...whose righteousness is it? If it isn't Christ's, whose is it, Drew? Time to fess up....How are you able to come before the throne of God? Or do you think God will tolerate your minor indiscretions just because you're you? If God were able to overlook our imperfections then He didn't need to send Christ at all.

Answer me that, Drew......in between the "liar, liar", of course. :eyebrow

 

[glorydaz]

Let's stop the accusations and return to the texts.

Consider this statement:

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Question: Do you agree that the Spirit only lives in believers. I assume that you do. Fine. So the "you" here mut be a reference to the believer.

Consider what Paul says next:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation....

Who are these brothers? Are they believers? Yes, beyond question - when Paul talking about a "you" that is a believer and then says "therefore brothers", Paul is clearly still addressing believers. Of course, you cannot allow this, and I am sure you will deny this.

In so doing, you radically change what Paul has actually written.

And then, of course, we have this statement clearly directed to these brothers:

we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

There is no doubt - you are changing the meaning of this entire text.

I, on the other hand, take it exactiy as it is written.

All right, Drew. I'm going to take the time to walk through this section of Romans, and I want you to listen very carefully. If you don't, and decide to skim right through because you know I'm just wrong and a liar, you'll just lose out. I'm done explaining the same thing over and over again. You can put the verse up 10,000 times and it will never make it say what you claim. Paul is talking about something far and above whether some believer might actually "fall away". Paul is talking about our position in Christ...the indwelling Spirit...and the laws man lives under. The natural man lives under the law of sin and death...the regenerate man lives under the law of the Spirit of Life. One is to bondage and fear and the other is our adoption as sons.

Christ did not "punish sin". He condemned sin in the flesh. Sin has no more dominion over the believer...because we are under the LAW of the SPIRIT OF LIFE. Paul is talking to the church, and yes, there are believers in the mix, but he is talking about the natural man versus the spiritual man. Did you hear that? ABOUT, not TO. The natural man won't even be in church most likely, but Paul is explaining the difference anyway. The natural man does not have the Spirit of LIFE. The believer does have the SPIRIT of LIFE, and is no longer under the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Paul is talking about two very special laws here. The Law of Sin and Death and the Law of the Spirit of Life. You're always so quick to rush to any verse that might possibly be saying a believer can lose his salvation that I think you salivate when you see even the slightest possibility. Notice down there in verse 15, Paul also brings up the spirit of Bondage and Fear, and the Spirit of Adoption. These Laws and these spirits are crucial to understanding this chapter. If you want to grab that one verse out of the middle of Paul's letter, like you usually do, you will totally miss what Paul is telling us.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

You're also making the claim that any believer who happens to follow after the flesh will lose their salvation, and that's just ludicrous. We live in these bodies of flesh and we all still sin and fall short of God's glory. So the facts belie what you claim the verse is saying. Those who live after the flesh are unbelievers...Paul is telling the church about the unbelievers who LIVE according the law of sin and death, as opposed to the believers who LIVE according to the Spirit of Life.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[Drew]

How old are you, Drew? You sound like such a child....."Liar" liar... pants on fire. :nag

I am 51.

And I stand by my claim - you intentionally lie by misrepresenting me as suggesting that men "earn" their own righteousness.

Bearing false witness is not something that we should do lightly.

And you may justify your behaviour by telling yourself that what you believe to be correct doctrine legitimates what you are doing.

But it does not.

 

[Drew]

If you deny it's the righteousness of Christ that gains us access to God then you're walking in darkness.

Oh dear.....

Here is what I posted just a few posts back.

I deny that we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ. But that does not mean that I deny that Christ has indeed acted righteouslessly in a manner that basically procures ultimate salvation for all who do not turn their back on the Spirit and walk away.

How can you say that I "deny it's the righteousness of Christ that gains us access to God", given this statement of mine?

Now how can we have a discussion when you do things like this? Do I mispresent you?

No I do not. I may not agree with your theology, but I do not tell other posters untruths about what you believe.

Please do not misrepresent my position.