How can the trinity be one God?

[JLB]

Titus 2:13
awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Jesus Christ reflected the glory of God. So we are awaiting his appearing.

Jesus is our great God and Savior, and we are awaiting His glorious appearing.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

again


Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1



JLB

 

[MarkT]

The above statement is contradictory. First, you agree that Jesus is "our God." Then, you say that the "Father is the only true God." The second statement denies Jesus' deity and basically says that He is not a true god.

I feel that you need to comet to grips with this. Is Jesus God or is He just a god? There is only one true and living God.

John 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

So Jesus ascended to the Father, his God and our God. The Father is the only true God.

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

Did Jesus deny his deity?

 

[MarkT]

Jesus is our great God and Savior, and we are awaiting His glorious appearing.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

again


Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1



JLB

The RSV has it
Titus 2:13
awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

It says the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ. So here he is saying Jesus is the glory of our God. The appearing of the glory of our God is not the same thing as the appearing of our God.

 

[JLB]

It says the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Yes, the glory of Jesus Christ that is upon Him, will appear to all at His coming, in such great intensity that the brightness of it will destroy the antichrist.


8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

It says the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Can the glory of Jesus Christ, our great God and Savior, appear without Him?

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1



I love you brother, but it seems you are having trouble, honoring the Son of God, as God, they way you honor the Father as God.


It glorifies the Father when we honor the Son as God, just the way we honor the Father as God.

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

• that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father

JLB

 

[WIP]

John 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

So Jesus ascended to the Father, his God and our God. The Father is the only true God.

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

Did Jesus deny his deity?

It seems you may not be considering the whole of Scripture. Here's what Isaiah has to say about Jesus.

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 NKJV

Jesus is God.

 

[WIP]

This thread is walking a thin line with regard to ToS 2.1. It has been allowed to progress to give opportunity for defense of our Christian faith in the hope of providing clarity. I fear it is close to running it course.

2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read: Statement of Faith.

 

[MarkT]

Yes, the glory of Jesus Christ that is upon Him, will appear to all at His coming, in such great intensity that the brightness of it will destroy the antichrist.


8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8





Can the glory of Jesus Christ, our great God and Savior, appear without Him?

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1



I love you brother, but it seems you are having trouble, honoring the Son of God, as God, they way you honor the Father as God.


It glorifies the Father when we honor the Son as God, just the way we honor the Father as God.

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

• that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father

JLB

To honor the Son is to keep his commandments.

Jesus is my Lord and Savior. The Father is my God.

 

[MarkT]

It seems you may not be considering the whole of Scripture. Here's what Isaiah has to say about Jesus.

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6 NKJV

Jesus is God.

According to Isa. 9:6 the Son will bear the Father's name. So you're right as far as his name. Jesus received the Father's name. John 17:11

I asked you,
John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

Did Jesus deny his deity? When I said the Father is the only true God you accused me of denying Jesus' deity. When Jesus said it, did he deny his deity?

 

[MarkT]

The Father is God. The Son is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

 

[Papa Zoom]

The OP seeks to clarify the concept of the Trinity, not to refute it. The orthodox view, and the view of this site, is that God is Trinitarian. One God, three persons. This OP is not asking to refute that. This OP is asking how the trinity can be ONE God.

"Athanasius, the fourth-century bishop of Alexandria, is one of the chief examples of a man who was willing to die for Christ even though it never actually came to that. During his lifetime, the church faced the threat of Arianism, a heresy named for a well-known teacher in the church. Arius taught that the Son of God was a godlike creature but not truly and fully divine. This heretic said Christ was worthy of honor because He was God’s first creation through whom all else was created. Still, Arius believed the Son was, ultimately, a mere creature. According to Arianism, “there was a time when the Son was not.” At the Council of Nicea in AD 325, the church met to deal with Arianism, and affirmed the orthodox biblical teaching by declaring that the Son is homoousious (of the same essence) with the Father and fully God in His own right. "

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/athanasius-against-world/

So, we mods are discussing this thread now. IF it opens back up, entertaining the idea (and thereby promoting it) that God is not Trinitarian (the orthodox view) will not be allowed. After 13 pages, enough. Take it up with Athanasius.

 

[Razeontherock]

In sympathy with MarkT, it is rather mind-boggling how Jesus of Nazareth, the man, who is fully human, can also be fully God, and Eternal from the beginning just as the Father is. Obviously the human part doesn't share all of that, but was born; of a virgin, no less!

The beauty of the Incarnation is that it Redeems us, BODILY. We will become one with the Father, just as Jesus is One with the Father.

How can this be? Perhaps the best answer we have in this lifetime is "it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know ... we shall be like Him." 1John 3:2

This peers right over the edge of what is knowable, and is a great entry point for worship!

 

[stovebolts]

After much thought, this thread is now open for further conversation.

I would like to add that our site has been moving away from debate, and we are trying to encourage meaningful discussion that grows and builds up our community. Debate and division is not conducive to our vision.

Our Statement of Faith affirms Trinity, and this thread seeks to answer the question, how can three be one.

This does not afford those that oppose the Trinity to debate it. Rather, it affords deeper discussion for those that do.

Iron sharpens iron, but what form does the iron take? Does it take on the form of a weapon to dismember a brother, or does it take the form of an implement used to til the ground or reap the harvest?

If you are anti trinitarian, I personally respect your view and have no issue calling you my brother in Christ. Respectfully, I would ask you to seek topics where we can walk together in unity instead of dividing us through our differences. In short, please dont post to disprove or debate the Trinity.

As far as those of us who are in alignment with the Statement of Faith in this site, let us continue to build each other up and grow in our understanding of this great mystery that will never be fully understood. And for this reason, let us remain humble and continue to show kindness and respect for one another.

Thank you.
Jeff

 

[MarkT]

Jesus is our great God and Savior, and we are awaiting His glorious appearing.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

again


Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1



JLB

The righteousness of God. The grace of God. The glory of God. RSV All these things are associated with God the Father and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Peter calls Jesus Christ the righteousness of God. Paul calls Jesus Christ the grace of God and our blessed hope and the glory of our great God.
Titus 2:11 RSV
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,
Titus 2:13 RSV
awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

The appearing of the glory of our God could be a reference to the magnificent light our Lord Jesus will be seen in.

That's the way I see it.

 

[MarkT]

Mark,

Are you convinced the Bible teaches Jesus is God?

In 2 Cor 5:10 (NIV), it states: 'For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for 1his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad'.

Here Christ is performing the act of Deity, 'judgment'.

Do you support the Bible as teaching the Holy Spirit is God?

The Holy Spirit has the attributes of Deity. He is eternal (Heb 9:14), omniscient [knowing everything] (1 Cor 2:10-11; Jn 14:26; 16:12-13), omnipotent (Lk 1:35), and omnipresent (Ps 139:7-10).

Oz

I believe the Father is the true God and Jesus reflects the Father.

Jesus was given the name and the attributes of God. So my understanding is the Father made him God.

I'd say the Father is the source of the Word and the Spirit.

 

[stovebolts]

I believe the Father is the true God and Jesus reflects the Father.

Jesus was given the name and the attributes of God. So my understanding is the Father made him God.

I'd say the Father is the source of the Word and the Spirit.

Hi Mark,
I know you were answering to Oz, but do you mind answering a few questions for me?

If yes, what do you mean by Jesus reflects the Father?

How does the Father make Jesus God? I dont understand this. Are you saying Jesus was part of creation?

By source, are you implying God was alone in eternity prior to His son and the Holy Spirit?

I ask these questions because they are central to the idea of the Trinity, and I'm curious if you had thought of these things.

 

[OzSpen]

The righteousness of God. The grace of God. The glory of God. RSV All these things are associated with God the Father and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Peter calls Jesus Christ the righteousness of God. Paul calls Jesus Christ the grace of God and our blessed hope and the glory of our great God.
Titus 2:11 RSV
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,
Titus 2:13 RSV
awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

The appearing of the glory of our God could be a reference to the magnificent light our Lord Jesus will be seen in.

That's the way I see it.

Mark,

In Titus 2:13 do you refer to two persons:

1. 'our great God', and
2. 'Savior Jesus Christ'.

Is that how you understand this construction? Or are you stating that one person is addressed, 'our great God and Savior Jesus Christ'?

The Greek construction for 'of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ' is:

​

τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (tou megalou theou kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou)​

I look forward to your clarification.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I'd say the Father is the source of the Word and the Spirit.

Mark,

Does that mean the Word (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit had beginnings?

Also, does that mean that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not co-eternal and co-equal with God the Father?

Oz

 

[MarkT]

Hi Mark,
I know you were answering to Oz, but do you mind answering a few questions for me?

If yes, what do you mean by Jesus reflects the Father?

How does the Father make Jesus God? I dont understand this. Are you saying Jesus was part of creation?

By source, are you implying God was alone in eternity prior to His son and the Holy Spirit?

I ask these questions because they are central to the idea of the Trinity, and I'm curious if you had thought of these things.

What do I mean by Jesus reflects the Father. It's like looking at yourself in the mirror. What can be seen is your physical appearance. Jesus had the appearance of the Father. In the abstract, he was the appearance of the Father. In reply to the Philip's request to show us the Father, Jesus said, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? John 14:9 RSV

He reflects the glory of God and he bears the very stamp of his nature. Jesus reflected the nature of our Father. In the abstract he was the kindness and the righteousness of God. He was the glory of God.
Hebrews 1:3
He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. RSV

How does the Father make Jesus God? The Father gave him his name and attributes. He raised him up. He glorified him. He anointed him. He raised him to the rank of God.

The Son comes later on. First there was the LORD. Then the Son gave us knowledge of the Father. So now we know the true God. Was God alone in heaven/eternity prior to the Word? I don't know.

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus was given the name and the attributes of God. So my understanding is the Father made him God.

Mark,

That's not what John 1:1 (ESV) teaches: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God'.

This verse teaches that Jesus was not a created being (in your words, 'The Father made him God') but was in the beginning with God and 'the Word was/is God'.

If the Word is a created being, what is the difference from Arianism?

'Arianism: Arianism is named after Arius (c. 250 - c. 336), a priest in Alexandria. This is considered the most serious heresy. Jesus Christ was thought of as a special creation by God for man's salvation. Arianism was the form of Christianity that the Goths adhered to, and it was popular in all the areas they conquered, including Italy, Spain, and Africa' (source).​

I'm not saying you promote the beliefs of Arianism, but I'd like to know the difference between what you posted here and the beliefs of Arianism.

Many thanks,
Oz

 

[MarkT]

Mark,

In Titus 2:13 do you refer to two persons:

1. 'our great God', and
2. 'Savior Jesus Christ'.

Is that how you understand this construction? Or are you stating that one person is addressed, 'our great God and Savior Jesus Christ'?

The Greek construction for 'of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ' is:

​

τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (tou megalou theou kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou)​

I look forward to your clarification.

Oz

It's the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. The appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour is Jesus Christ. Paul used the same device in that context saying 'For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men." This literary device has some name. I forget. But it's understood that Paul is referring to Jesus Christ when he says 'the grace of God".