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How can the trinity be one God?

MarkT said:
The righteousness of God. The grace of God. The glory of God. RSV All these things are associated with God the Father and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Peter calls Jesus Christ the righteousness of God. Paul calls Jesus Christ the grace of God and our blessed hope and the glory of our great God.
Titus 2:11 RSV
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,
Titus 2:13 RSV
awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

The appearing of the glory of our God could be a reference to the magnificent light our Lord Jesus will be seen in.

That's the way I see it.
Click to expand...

Could you answer this question, so I know where you stand?


Based on the following scripture, do you believe the Lord God who will come with the saints is God the Father or the Lord Jesus Christ?


Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5



JLB
 
MarkT said:
How does the Father make Jesus God? The Father gave him his name and attributes. He raised him up. He glorified him. He anointed him. He raised him to the rank of God.

The Son comes later on. First there was the LORD. Then the Son gave us knowledge of the Father. So now we know the true God. Was God alone in heaven/eternity prior to the Word? I don't know.
Click to expand...

Mark,

<<Was God alone in heaven/eternity prior to the Word? I don't know.>>

The Scriptures know: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God' (John 1:1 ESV).

God was NOT alone in eternity. Jesus, the Word 'was with God'. Do you accept this fact?

Please note the teaching in John 1:1, Three times in this one verse, John used the Greek imperfect tense verb ēn (translated as 'was'). This indicates Christ's 'timeless existence' as the person (Jesus) who is known as 'the Word'.

The Greek imperfect tense 'denotes continuous or repeated action in past time.... The Greek imperfects should be translated by the English past continuous forms' (Wenham 1965, The Elements of New Testament Greek, p. 54). It's difficult to translate the verb 'to be' in past continuous unless one uses a clumsy phrase such as 'was being'.

Nevertheless, this demonstrates the Word had eternal existence before the incarnation in human flesh. Before 'the beginning', Jesus was.

Jude 25 (ESV) confirms the same fact of the eternity of the Son: 'to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen'.

Oz
 
MarkT said:
It's the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. The appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour is Jesus Christ. Paul used the same device in that context saying 'For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men." This literary device has some name. I forget. But it's understood that Paul is referring to Jesus Christ when he says 'the grace of God".
Click to expand...

You didn't answer my questions:

In Titus 2:13 do you refer to two persons:
  1. 'our great God', and
  2. 'Savior Jesus Christ'.
Is that how you understand this construction? Or are you stating that one person is addressed, 'our great God and Savior Jesus Christ'?

Please let me know whether your construction refers to 2 persons in this verse or only 1.

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
Mark,

That's not what John 1:1 (ESV) teaches: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God'.

This verse teaches that Jesus was not a created being (in your words, 'The Father made him God') but was in the beginning with God and 'the Word was/is God'.

If the Word is a created being, what is the difference from Arianism?

'Arianism: Arianism is named after Arius (c. 250 - c. 336), a priest in Alexandria. This is considered the most serious heresy. Jesus Christ was thought of as a special creation by God for man's salvation. Arianism was the form of Christianity that the Goths adhered to, and it was popular in all the areas they conquered, including Italy, Spain, and Africa' (source).​

I'm not saying you promote the beliefs of Arianism, but I'd like to know the difference between what you posted here and the beliefs of Arianism.

Many thanks,
Oz
Click to expand...

Really. The Goths eh. I don't know man. I'm not a Goth.

I'm not a follower of Arius. I'm not a follower of anyone except Jesus Christ. I'm just saying what I know.

As far as I know, the Word is the first thing God said. "Let there be light" and the result was the light. Words come out of our mouth. Words accomplish things. Jesus was sent to accomplish the will of the Father.
 
MarkT said:
What do I mean by Jesus reflects the Father. It's like looking at yourself in the mirror. What can be seen is your physical appearance. Jesus had the appearance of the Father. In the abstract, he was the appearance of the Father. In reply to the Philip's request to show us the Father, Jesus said, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? John 14:9 RSV

He reflects the glory of God and he bears the very stamp of his nature. Jesus reflected the nature of our Father. In the abstract he was the kindness and the righteousness of God. He was the glory of God.
Hebrews 1:3
He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. RSV

How does the Father make Jesus God? The Father gave him his name and attributes. He raised him up. He glorified him. He anointed him. He raised him to the rank of God.

The Son comes later on. First there was the LORD. Then the Son gave us knowledge of the Father. So now we know the true God. Was God alone in heaven/eternity prior to the Word? I don't know.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your honest, and well thought out post. In all, it was very good and we have very much in common. You did scripture well using John 14:9, beautifully done.

Within the Orthodox view of the Trinity, we like the answer we get when we ask the below question from Hebrews 1:3 which you quoted. It pretty much hits to the core. That question is this.

Was God ever without Glory? The answer has to be no, or the very nature of God comes into question. That is, was God ever NOT Love?

When we look at John 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given meto be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. (NIV)

We see two things here. First, the Father is loving his Son before creation, and He has given His Glory to His son. It also shows us that first and foremost, our God is a shown as a Father loving His children.

This tells us that God had glory, and it was in His Son.

Questions?
 
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OzSpen said:
You didn't answer my questions:

In Titus 2:13 do you refer to two persons:
  1. 'our great God', and
  2. 'Savior Jesus Christ'.
Is that how you understand this construction? Or are you stating that one person is addressed, 'our great God and Savior Jesus Christ'?

Please let me know whether your construction refers to 2 persons in this verse or only 1.

Oz
Click to expand...

The Scriptures know: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God' (John 1:1 ESV).

The Word was with God. Is that two persons or one person?

Titus 2:13 is referring one person, Jesus Christ, the glory of our God and our Savior.
Titus 2:13
awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
 
OzSpen said:
Mark,

<<Was God alone in heaven/eternity prior to the Word? I don't know.>>

The Scriptures know: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God' (John 1:1 ESV).

God was NOT alone in eternity. Jesus, the Word 'was with God'. Do you accept this fact?

Please note the teaching in John 1:1, Three times in this one verse, John used the Greek imperfect tense verb ēn (translated as 'was'). This indicates Christ's 'timeless existence' as the person (Jesus) who is known as 'the Word'.

The Greek imperfect tense 'denotes continuous or repeated action in past time.... The Greek imperfects should be translated by the English past continuous forms' (Wenham 1965, The Elements of New Testament Greek, p. 54). It's difficult to translate the verb 'to be' in past continuous unless one uses a clumsy phrase such as 'was being'.

Nevertheless, this demonstrates the Word had eternal existence before the incarnation in human flesh. Before 'the beginning', Jesus was.

Jude 25 (ESV) confirms the same fact of the eternity of the Son: 'to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen'.

Oz
Click to expand...

I believe the Word came out of God's mouth. That's the sense I get. So in the beginning God spoke. So did the Word exist before God spoke? Maybe he was in the form of wisdom, knowledge and understanding in the mind of God.

19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth;
by understanding he established the heavens;
20 by his knowledge the deeps broke forth,
and the clouds drop down the dew. Proverbs 3:19-20
 
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JLB said:
Could you answer this question, so I know where you stand?


Based on the following scripture, do you believe the Lord God who will come with the saints is God the Father or the Lord Jesus Christ?


Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5



JLB
Click to expand...

The Lord Jesus Christ.
 
StoveBolts said:
You did scripture well using John 14:9, beautifully done.
Click to expand...

Except of course the verse is not taught in isolation. It’s a part (a re-teaching) of a longer discourse where he’s teaching His disciples things they just didn’t understand (that seeing Him (His glory) was seeing the One having sent Him. Yet the voice they heard was NOT His, but rather the Father’s). Which is Him actually explaining to them what they say and heard at His glorification. Which is their King coming (the Father and the Son). They heard the Father and say His glory!

“Do not be fearing, daughter of Zion. Behold— your King is coming, sitting on a colt of a donkey”. ​
...​
His disciples did not understand these things at first. But when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things had been written for Him, and that they did these things to Him. ​
...​
Father, glorify Your name!” Then a voice came from heaven: “I both glorified it, and will again glorify it ”.​
...​
And Jesus cried-out and said “The one believing in Me is not believing in Me, but in the One having sent Me. ​
[there is clearly One being sent AND One sending Him.]​
And the one seeing Me is seeing the One having sent Me. Because I did not speak out of Myself, but the Father having sent Me— He has given Me a commandment as to what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is eternal life. Therefore the things which I speak— just as the Father has told Me, so I speak”.​
 
MarkT said:
I believe the Word came out of God's mouth. That's the sense I get. So in the beginning God spoke. So did the Word exist before God spoke? Maybe he was in the form of wisdom, knowledge and understanding in the mind of God.

19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth;
by understanding he established the heavens;
20 by his knowledge the deeps broke forth,
and the clouds drop down the dew. Proverbs 3:19-20
Click to expand...

Jesus said that He proceeded forth and came out of God.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (Jn. 8:42 KJV)

I bolded the word from, it 's translated from the word "ek" which literally means to come out.

Paul said Christ is the first born of all Creation

And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. (Col. 1:15 NAS)

There's also a passage in the OT that I can't locate at the moment where God says He has discharged his most excellent logos.
 
MarkT said:
Really. The Goths eh. I don't know man. I'm not a Goth.

I'm not a follower of Arius. I'm not a follower of anyone except Jesus Christ. I'm just saying what I know.

As far as I know, the Word is the first thing God said. "Let there be light" and the result was the light. Words come out of our mouth. Words accomplish things. Jesus was sent to accomplish the will of the Father.
Click to expand...

Mark,

You're not answering my questions? I didn't ask about the Goths, but asked how your beliefs of Jesus being a created being differ from Arianism.

What did God create when he stated, 'Let there be light'?

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day (Gen 1:3-5 NIV).​

God created the light vs darkness and the 'day' was light and the darkness was 'night'. It's obvious 'let there be light', in context, had nothing to do with God, the Word.

Oz


Oz
MarkT said:
The Scriptures know: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God' (John 1:1 ESV).

The Word was with God. Is that two persons or one person?

Titus 2:13 is referring one person, Jesus Christ, the glory of our God and our Savior.
Titus 2:13
awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Click to expand...

Mark,

On what basis is Titus 2:13 not describing two persons in the Godhead?
  1. glorious appearing of our great God
  2. and Savior Jesus Christ
Oz
 
MarkT said:
I believe the Word came out of God's mouth. That's the sense I get.
Click to expand...

Mark,

Is that your substitute for exegesis?

What is exegesis? It is what comes out of the biblical text by examining its grammar, culture, history, etc that is stated in the text. This is in contrast to what some do in reading their own views into the text - which is known as eisegesis.

'I believe' and 'that's the sense I get' do not provide the content of what the text states, as determined by the text.

Oz
 
Hi OzSpen
Two posts up, you quote Genesis 1:3-5 and asks what is has to do with the Word. I believe it has much to do with the Word.
John 8:12
English Standard Version
Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Looking back to Genisis, we see darkness is not created. In actuality, darkness is the absence of light. We can say much on this, but I dont want to stay too far from the OP.

When we fail to do what is good, what is right, we dont create darkness. Darkness is the absence of light, and God says the Light is good. We create what is good by what we do, and darkness is the result of not doing what is good.

John 3:19
English Standard Version
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

When we look at Trinity, we have a place at the Table with God, that is to say we have a place with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 
StoveBolts said:
Thank you for your honest, and well thought out post. In all, it was very good and we have very much in common. You did scripture well using John 14:9, beautifully done.

Within the Orthodox view of the Trinity, we like the answer we get when we ask the below question from Hebrews 1:3 which you quoted. It pretty much hits to the core. That question is this.

Was God ever without Glory? The answer has to be no, or the very nature of God comes into question. That is, was God ever NOT Love?

When we look at John 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given meto be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. (NIV)

We see two things here. First, the Father is loving his Son before creation, and He has given His Glory to His son. It also shows us that first and foremost, our God is a shown as a Father loving His children.

This tells us that God had glory, and it was in His Son.

Questions?
Click to expand...

Was God ever without glory? Glory can mean honor won by achievements. We give him glory for his works. But before the creation there would be no works and no man or anything to give him glory.

Glory can also mean great splendor.

John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world.

He says, "to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world", not before the light. The light was created before the foundation of the world. The world was not the first act of creation.

Also his glory was given him that we should behold it, which is a reference to his appearance, the appearance he had before the foundation of the world. So I take it Jesus is referring to his glorious appearance when he was with God in the beginning when God created the light.

Proverbs 8:22-31 says the LORD created him at the beginning.
 
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OzSpen said:
Mark,

Is that your substitute for exegesis?

What is exegesis? It is what comes out of the biblical text by examining its grammar, culture, history, etc that is stated in the text. This is in contrast to what some do in reading their own views into the text - which is known as eisegesis.

'I believe' and 'that's the sense I get' do not provide the content of what the text states, as determined by the text.

Oz
Click to expand...

This is the 21st century and I am reading the RSV. I'm not translating the Bible.
 
OzSpen said:
Mark,

You're not answering my questions? I didn't ask about the Goths, but asked how your beliefs of Jesus being a created being differ from Arianism.

What did God create when he stated, 'Let there be light'?

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day (Gen 1:3-5 NIV).​

God created the light vs darkness and the 'day' was light and the darkness was 'night'. It's obvious 'let there be light', in context, had nothing to do with God, the Word.

Oz


Oz


Mark,

On what basis is Titus 2:13 not describing two persons in the Godhead?
  1. glorious appearing of our great God
  2. and Savior Jesus Christ
Oz
Click to expand...

My answer is I don't know. I'm not a follower of Arius.

On the basis of my understanding of what Paul said.

The RSV has it, 11 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, 12 training us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions, and to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world, 13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior[a] Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

As you can see, Paul said, "for the grace of God has appeared" Who is he talking about here? I take it Paul is talking about Jesus Christ. Then later on he says, "the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ." Well, the glory of our great God and Saviour is Jesus Christ. So he is still talking about Jesus Christ.
 
When we speak of God, we speak of God in the terms of family. At the head of the family is the Father. That is how God can be one. This is in response to the title of the thread.
 
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