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How can the trinity be one God?

Razeontherock said:
It has nothing to do with "re-translating" it.

It has to do with how one understands it.

Here, on display, you do violence to Scripture. That's very easy to correct! All you need do is the same thing everyone before you has done, and realize Scripture was written long before English was a language. You can't possibly begin to understand John 1 until you take that step. In the meantime that's very good news for you, because it holds the promise of unlocking much understanding for you ...
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I was talking about retranslating, period. Of course if the NT was written in English, it would not need translating. Same for the OT.

The Bible has been translated for us, for the poor in spirit, and we have heard our Master's voice.

In these last days God has shown us the way. It doesn't matter to me what the critics say.
 
LovethroughDove said:
Yes, love all those scriptures that point to Jesus as God.

The scripture in Philippians 2 that we are examining has the context around it that Jesus considered himself "not" equal to the Father and therefore humbled himself in all ways. And the point being made is that we are to be like Christ's attitude.
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?

Philippians plainly says Jesus did not consider it robbery, which is He did not consider it unjust, to be equal with God.


NKJV - who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

NIV - Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

YLT - who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,

KJV - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Jesus considered Himself as equal to God.


JLB
 
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These are literally the 2 bibles I have. "did not consider equality with God"
I think there should be a period there. You and I will just have to disagree with what the context is being said in this whole passage. This is why I'm out of this thread, cause from all understanding of what the trinity represents..... Co-equal entities.
 
billybalke said:
Lets be definite. "holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost". IIPet.1:21. Doctrine came only by them, not ''church fathers" so called or any other. Thats what I mean by my statement: "not necessarily".
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This is absolutely false; an unsound reasoning. The entire Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth. There were 120 in the upper room. We don't have 120 authors of Scripture; not even if we include the OT.
 
LovethroughDove said:
I am trying to be specific. It's very clear and not mysterious to me, but it does defy how we think usually. Maybe I should get off the trinity thread, cause I guess the trinity is co-equal persons?
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Well here's a thought! Do we really know the Trinity is "co-equal?" Does such a thing even have any application to God? It sounds like different individuals, struggling for power. Anthropomorphic!
 
Jim Parker said:
The original Greek word was "hypostasis." (an underlying reality or substance, as opposed to attributes or that which lacks substance.) About as close as we can get in modern English is "person."

It's a really tough subject because, as mere humans, we really don't have the ability to understand exactly what "God" is.

This may be useful:
THE CREED BIBLE REFERENCES​

I believe in God,(1) the Father Almighty, Isaiah 44:6; 45:5
Maker of Heaven and Earth,(2) Genesis 1:1; John 1:1-3; Acts 14:15

And in Jesus Christ,(3) Luke 2:11; John 20:28
His only begotten Son,(4) John 3:16; Proverbs 30:4
our Lord, (5) John 20:28

begotten, not made John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1JN 4:9

of one substance with the Father Col 2:9
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,(6) Luke 1:35
born of the Virgin(7) Mary, Luke 1:27
suffered under Pontius Pilate,(8) Luke 23:23-25
was crucified,(9) John 19:20; Acts 4:10; all Gospels
dead(10) 1 Corinthians 15:3
and buried.(11) 1 Corinthians 15:4

He descended into Hell.(A) 1 Peter 3:18; Luke 23:43

The third day(12) 1 Corinthians 15:4
He arose from the dead,(13) 1 Corinthians 15:4
He ascended into Heaven(14) Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51, Acts 1:11
and is seated at the right hand
of God,(15) the Father Almighty. Mark 16:19; Hebrews 1:3

From thence He shall come
to judge the living and the dead.(16) 2 Timothy 4:1; John 5:22 ; Mat 25

I believe in the Holy Spirit,(17) John 15:26; 16:7-8, 13-14; Acts 13:2
the church universal,(18) Galatians 3:26-29

The apostolic* church Act 2:42; 2Th 2:15; 2Ti 2:2
the communion of saints,(19) Revelation 19:14; Hebrews 10:25
the forgiveness of sins,(20) Luke 7:48
the resurrection of the body,(21) 1 Thessalonians 4:16; John 6:39
and life everlasting.(22) John 10:28; 17:2-3

* "Apostolic" refers to the teaching of the apostles who were personally taught by God the Son.

No extra charge...:)

iakov the fool
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THANK YOU! I thought I would puke when I looked up Creeds online only to find "descended into hell" has been purged from everywhere. You included it, and I know it's really supposed to be there even though it was removed when I wasn't looking.

When He returns, will the Son of man find Faith on the earth? Doesn't seem likely, at this rate ...
 
LovethroughDove said:
View attachment 5955
These are literally the 2 bibles I have. "did not consider equality with God"
I think there should be a period there. You and I will just have to disagree with what the context is being said in this whole passage. This is why I'm out of this thread, cause from all understanding of what the trinity represents..... Co-equal entities.
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Punctuation does not exist in the original language. Any notion that punctuation should determine important foundational doctrine should be re-examined.
 
LovethroughDove said:
View attachment 5955
These are literally the 2 bibles I have. "did not consider equality with God"
I think there should be a period there. You and I will just have to disagree with what the context is being said in this whole passage. This is why I'm out of this thread, cause from all understanding of what the trinity represents..... Co-equal entities.
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There's nothing wrong with those two versions, as long as you realize that every version has it's strengths and weaknesses. "Something to be grasped" means keeping it to Himself.

Jesus knew who He was; God in flesh, Emmanuel! He made Himself a servant so that His status would be spread to "whosoever will." This passage is saying that to do otherwise would have been selfish, and explains His sacrificial gift of Himself, to us.

It points to an attitude we are to embrace!
 
Philippians 2:5-7 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant,[a] being born in the likeness of men.

"Being born in the likeness of men."

Jesus said "the Father is greater than I" His teaching is greater than anything in the Bible, and it should be used when there is some disagreement. So you can be 100% certain that Paul does not say Jesus was equal to God.

The RSV has it, "who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"

The KJV has it, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God"

Robbery, grasped, grab - a thing to be grabbed. He did not count equality a thing you can take from God. He had no ambition to be equal to God.

What is robbery? Robbery is taking something that doesn't belong to you. Equality with God can not be taken from God. It's 'not robbery'.
 
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Razeontherock said:
There's nothing wrong with those two versions, as long as you realize that every version has it's strengths and weaknesses. "Something to be grasped" means keeping it to Himself.

Jesus knew who He was; God in flesh, Emmanuel! He made Himself a servant so that His status would be spread to "whosoever will." This passage is saying that to do otherwise would have been selfish, and explains His sacrificial gift of Himself, to us.

It points to an attitude we are to embrace!
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Yeah like I heard that the NIV bible leaves out certain portions that to baptists are "crucial".
 
Papa Zoom said:
I'm going with Athanasius.
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I had to look him up to be sure I understood you correctly. Good call!

For those in opposition, here's a more modern perspective you might be able to relate to better:
  1. There's a saying old


  4. Says that love is blind
    Still we're often told
    "Seek and ye shall find"
    So I'm going to seek
    A certain lad
    I've had in mind
    Looking everywhere
    Haven't found him yet
    He's the big affair
    I cannot forget
    Only man I ever think
    Of with regret
    I'd like
    To add his initial
    To my monogram
    Tell me
    Where is the shepherd
    For this lost lamb?
    There's a somebody
    I'm longin' to see
    I hope that he turns
    Out to be
    Someone to watch over me
    I'm a little lamb
    Who's lost in the wood
    I know I could
    Always be good
    To one
    Who'll watch over me
    Although he may
    Not be the man some
    Girls think
    Of as handsome
    To my heart
    He carries the key
    Won't you tell him please
    To put on some speed
    Follow my lead
    Oh, how I need someone to watch over me

    Songwriters: Ira Gershwin / George Gershwin
 
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MarkT said:
Philippians 2:5-7 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant,[a] being born in the likeness of men.

"Being born in the likeness of men."

Jesus said "the Father is greater than I" His teaching is greater than anything in the Bible, and it should be used when there is some disagreement. So you can be 100% certain that Paul does not say Jesus was equal to God.

The RSV has it, "who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"

The KJV has it, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God"

Robbery, grasped, grab - a thing to be grabbed. He did not count equality a thing you can take from God. He had no ambition to be equal to God.

What is robbery? Robbery is taking something that doesn't belong to you. Equality with God can not be taken from God. It's 'not robbery'.
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Correction: That should be he didn't count it a thing to be achieved, because equality with God is impossible. Even being in the form of God didn't make him equal to God. I'm assuming Paul knows the Father is greater than the Son and that they are One.
 
Jim Parker said:
One entity (Godhead)
co-equal hypostases (persons)
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Problem is the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God; He is no more a person than your spirit is a person.

Matthew 3:16
And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him;

Is there some reason you think he is a person and not a dove? I mean besides your training, is there a reason?
 
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MarkT said:
Problem is the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God; He is no more a person than your spirit is a person.
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Not according to scripture and the teaching of the apostles.
According to what the church has always taught, the Holy Spirit Is a person.

Jesus said:
Jhn 14:16-17 “And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever - the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you."
Notice Jesus refers to the Spirit as "HIM", not "IT".

John uses the word "He" to refer to the Father and also to refer to the Spirit.
Jhn 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me."
Again, "HE" will testify, not "IT" will testify.
Also, "WHOM" I shall send, not "which" I shall send.

Jhn 16:13-14 “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you."
Again, "He", not "it".

Also note that Jesus said: “God is Spirit,..." (Jhn 4:24)
So; if an "spirit" is not a "person", as you stated, then God is not a person.

Matthew 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him;
Is there some reason you think he is a person and not a dove? I mean besides your training, is there a reason?
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So, are you now saying that the Holy Spirit is a bird?
I don't think that's what you mean.

Key: "..descending "LIKE" a dove."

Mar 1:10 And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.
Luk 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
Jhn 1:32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.

This is the only time when the Holy Spirit appears in a bodily form.
The scriptures say that the appearance of the Holy Spirit is LIKE a dove.

On what basis do you reject the teaching of the Church from the beginning and also the rendering of all the translators of scripture?

On what basis do you assume that 2000 years of scholarship, the work of thousands of translators, and the universal teaching of the church is wrong but that you have a better understanding than those tens of thousands of scholars over twenty centuries?


iakov the fool
 
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