How can the trinity be one God?

[Randy]

I'm unsure of what your trying to say?
Were talking Trinitarian theology right?
When you say "Jesus didnt come to do our will", is our referring to our, like you and I? Or our, as in Trinitarian thought?

I saying Jesus has His own will. He came to do the Fathers will. He didn't say our will (as in one will) He said," I have come to do your will my God". As in the Fathers will. And Jesus was set apart as the Fathers own by the Father before He came into the world. As Jesus stated the one the Father set apart as His very own AND sent into the world.

I don't doubt this oneness.
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

 

[WIP]

Jesus is shown to have his own will in the NT.
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

But Jesus has also said this....

Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work." John 4:34 NKJV

“Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner." John 5:19 NKJV

"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." John 5:30 NKJV

Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift[a] up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things." John 8:28 NKJV

"I speak what I have seen with My Father,..." John 8:38 NKJV

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me." John 8:42 NKJV

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58 NKJV

 

[Randy]

But Jesus has also said this....

Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work." John 4:34 NKJV

“Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner." John 5:19 NKJV

"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." John 5:30 NKJV

Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift[a] up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things." John 8:28 NKJV

"I speak what I have seen with My Father,..." John 8:38 NKJV

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me." John 8:42 NKJV

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58 NKJV

John 5:30 as you quoted, "I do not seek to do my own will but the will of the Father who sent me."
I stated Jesus follows the Fathers will by obedience not because He doesn't have His own will.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I just don't see a separate will or mind in the Spirit apart from God the Father. I do see that in Jesus.
Jesus even has His own spirit, "Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"

Hi Randy, The Father, son and Holy Spirit have no separate will apart from each other, They are all in agreement. In 1 Cor. 12:1-31 the Spirit Gives gifts to the body as he wills, But His will is the same as the Fathers and the Sons (Matt. 28:18-20). The reason the Spirit will come and give you the things of Christ is that, he is in agreement with Christ (Luke 4:17-19) The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ (Rom. 8:8-10)

 

[stovebolts]

I saying Jesus has His own will. He came to do the Fathers will. He didn't say our will (as in one will) He said," I have come to do your will my God". As in the Fathers will. And Jesus was set apart as the Fathers own by the Father before He came into the world. As Jesus stated the one the Father set apart as His very own AND sent into the world.

I don't doubt this oneness.
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Sorry if I am a little slow, please be patient with me.

Within Trinitarian theology, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are separate, yet are one.
That Jesus has his own will separate and apart from the Father does not negate them being one, which is what I think is the point your trying to make, right?

 

[WIP]

Randy;

Trying to dig deeper into what you're trying to get across. Do you believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can separate from each other and become totally independent? In other words, do you believe the Triune God can break apart?

 

[Douglas Summers]

John 5:30 as you quoted, "I do not seek to do my own will but the will of the Father who sent me."
I stated Jesus follows the Fathers will by obedience not because He doesn't have His own will.

Hi Randy, But then again, Christ says, "I lay down my own life, no one takes it from me, I lay it down of my own accord", I think here, Christ is speaking as the Son of man, For I have received this from my father. Don't forget, Christ, as the Son of David according to the flesh (Rom. 1:3). He came to do His Fathers will by the flesh, He is the second Adam. And He defeated Satan by the flesh (Heb. 2:9-13) by the power of the Holy Spirit as an example how we can overcome Satan by the same Spirit (John 16:13-15; Rom. 8:14-17)

 

[Razeontherock]

Yes, I'm thinking along the lines of Douglas Summers here: as fully human, Jesus had His own will which He could've used to make as much a mess of things as anyone else. (That He lived a sinless life is a huge part of both the Gospel and the significance of the Incarnation)

As fully God, Jesus "sought" the Father's will - and succeeded! For the purpose of bringing us Salvation :yes

That example is a big part of how He "leads us to the Father;" we can likewise humble ourselves before Him, to be exalted in due time ...

 

[ezra]

a lot of gnat straining in this post

 

[Randy]

Hi Randy, The Father, son and Holy Spirit have no separate will apart from each other, They are all in agreement. In 1 Cor. 12:1-31 the Spirit Gives gifts to the body as he wills, But His will is the same as the Fathers and the Sons (Matt. 28:18-20). The reason the Spirit will come and give you the things of Christ is that, he is in agreement with Christ (Luke 4:17-19) The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ (Rom. 8:8-10)

The Spirit the Father promised "My Spirit" is the Spirit Jesus received from the Father and sends in His name. I would state I have the Spirit of Christ in me just as Jesus of Nazareth stated it was the Father living in Him. There is only One Spirit of God.

Jesus to the Father=>I have given them the glory you gave me.

I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

 

[WIP]

Yes, I'm thinking along the lines of Douglas Summers here: as fully human, Jesus had His own will which He could've used to make as much a mess of things as anyone else. (That He lived a sinless life is a huge part of both the Gospel and the significance of the Incarnation)

As fully God, Jesus "sought" the Father's will - and succeeded! For the purpose of bringing us Salvation :yes

That example is a big part of how He "leads us to the Father;" we can likewise humble ourselves before Him, to be exalted in due time ...

Just a thought that came to my mind and this relates to my last question to Randy too. If Jesus did anything else than what He was sent to do by the Father, that would have put Him at odds with the Father. As Jesus said, “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls." (Luke 11:17 NKJV) This is an impossibility for God is from everlasting to everlasting and therefore cannot fall.

 

[Randy]

Just a thought that came to my mind and this relates to my last question to Randy too. If Jesus did anything else than what He was sent to do by the Father, that would have put Him at odds with the Father. As Jesus said, “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls." (Luke 11:17 NKJV) This is an impossibility for God is from everlasting to everlasting and therefore cannot fall.

The Son Loves His father proved by His obedience. Even humbling Himself to the cross.
The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."

 

[Razeontherock]

a lot of gnat straining in this post

If you're referring to the whole thread then yes, trying to discuss the topic gets hair splitting. As long as nobody's swallowing camels, right?

This conversation points to "theosis," which is a fancy way of saying Jesus' birth is God reaching down to man in order to bring us close to Him

That's the thrust of the Gospel, and in his last few posts Randy's preaching it good!

 

[Douglas Summers]

The Spirit the Father promised "My Spirit" is the Spirit Jesus received from the Father and sends in His name. I would state I have the Spirit of Christ in me just as Jesus of Nazareth stated it was the Father living in Him. There is only One Spirit of God.

Yes, What things of Christ has the Spirit given you and what Gift or gifts has the Spirit used through you and how has the Spirit guided you? I want to compare in how the Spirit worked in my life with yours.

 

[stovebolts]

The Son Loves His father proved by His obedience. Even humbling Himself to the cross.
The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."

For me, this raises a question on obedience.
Did Jesus humble himself in submission to the Father through fear? Or, was the love for one another so strong, so unseprapratable that the desire for harmony and unity the driving factor?

Paul tells us that we ought to humble ourselves and think higher of others than ourselves. Do you think we should obey that advice based on fear, or perhaps we submit ourselves to one another because of our love for one another is our desire?

 

[ezra]

Paul tells us that we ought to humble ourselves and think higher of others than ourselves. Do you think we should obey that advice based on fear, or perhaps we submit ourselves to one another because of our love for one another is our desire?

what does the Bible say? i think we all know the answer

 

[Randy]

For me, this raises a question on obedience.
Did Jesus humble himself in submission to the Father through fear? Or, was the love for one another so strong, so unseprapratable that the desire for harmony and unity the driving factor?

Paul tells us that we ought to humble ourselves and think higher of others than ourselves. Do you think we should obey that advice based on fear, or perhaps we submit ourselves to one another because of our love for one another is our desire?

Jesus overcame the world as a servant.
In Jesus's case it was out of love. That is the Son loves the Father and His obedience was a true sign of that love.
Likewise
"If" you love me, keep my commands.
Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
To those who opposed Jesus
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.

 

[Randy]

Yes, What things of Christ has the Spirit given you and what Gift or gifts has the Spirit used through you and how has the Spirit guided you? I want to compare in how the Spirit worked in my life with yours.

What Jesus has given me is life. And the presence of that Spirit with my spirit is assurance of such life. That presence can only be felt by my spirit when God wills it otherwise I don't feel it.
One when I was witnessing Christ to someone of anther faith (Judaism) they stated to me, "I don't need Jesus as I can just ask God to forgive me." At that moment I felt a shaking (hard to put in words) inside my Chest and the words "Its not for you to choose how to forgive sin were heard in my mind" I conveyed those words.

In answer to prayers I have felt an outward presence of the Spirit and words were heard in my mind. Since those prayers were to Jesus I perceived the reply was from Him.

 

[Douglas Summers]

What Jesus has given me is life. And the presence of that Spirit with my spirit is assurance of such life. That presence can only be felt by my spirit when God wills it otherwise I don't feel it.
One when I was witnessing Christ to someone of anther faith (Judaism) they stated to me, "I don't need Jesus as I can just ask God to forgive me." At that moment I felt a shaking (hard to put in words) inside my Chest and the words "Its not for you to choose how to forgive sin were heard in my mind" I conveyed those words.

In answer to prayers I have felt an outward presence of the Spirit and words were heard in my mind. Since those prayers were to Jesus I perceived the reply was from Him.

It is the Holy Spirit working through you, not you working the Holy Spirit. I have had the Holy Spirit work in me many things, and it is always an instant action not reasoned by the flesh. I was listening to a group of LDS witness to me, then they said, "all Jesus was, was a good man", Without even thinking, The Holy Spirit in me, instantly made me stand up and rebuke them. I had no control over it, I was just a vessel. They said I had Satan in me, and left. I asked my wife, what just happened, She said, I don't know, but I could feel a strong presence in the room.

 

[Randy]

It is the Holy Spirit working through you, not you working the Holy Spirit. I have had the Holy Spirit work in me many things, and it is always an instant action not reasoned by the flesh. I was listening to a group of LDS witness to me, then they said, "all Jesus was, was a good man", Without even thinking, The Holy Spirit in me, instantly made me stand up and rebuke them. I had no control over it, I was just a vessel. They said I had Satan in me, and left. I asked my wife, what just happened, She said, I don't know, but I could feel a strong presence in the room.

JW's do the same thing. You oppose them with sound reasoning and scripture and they think its from the devil.
I have not had that experience where I was made to do anything. Of course, like you, I was always a willing "witness."
(Will of the Mind of Father or Son)=>(Holy Spirit)=>(To us)

You can use scripture (Haven't you read) That doesn't mean they will listen. Jesus can relate.
While I consider LDS outside of the faith I am not so sure "was just a good man" is their official doctrine.