How do we respond to jews who believe messiah hasn't come?

[DivineNames]

It is not RIGHT to reject Jesus as the Messiah because there are not any sound reasons to.

But it would be right to reject Christianity, if there were sound reasons to think Jesus couldn't be the Messiah?

 

[Solo]

All have the freewill to believe or not believe Jesus Christ and his witness.
All have the freewill to believe or not to believe Jesus Christ and the witness of the Holy Spirit.
All have the freewill to believe or not believe Jesus Christ and the witness of God the Father.
All have the freewill to believe or not believe Jesus Christ and the witness of His creation.
All have the freewill to believe or not believe Jesus Christ and the witness of the Apostles.
All have the freewill to believe or not believe Jesus Christ and the witness of the body of Christ.
All have the freewill to believe or not believe Jesus Christ and the witness the Word of God.

So the answer to your question is, "There are no sound reasons to reject Jesus Christ as the Messiah, thereby rejecting Christianity".

For the rejection is not of the Messiah or Christianity, but a perceived change of life, right or wrong, that an unbeliever has to make in order to believe.

The whole decision is based on what a person is to do with the short temporary years one has on this earth in the current physical form. Fill the desires of ones heart for seventy years and give up an eternity with God,
or begin to live with God and abundant life with the short time in the current physical form, looking forward to a joint inheritance with Jesus Christ, the God of creation.

A pretty easy decision when a proper understanding is acquired, rejection of Jesus has no sound reasons only excuses.

This is all very interesting, but can you explain how Jesus could have had the lineage to be the Messiah?

The Only Possible Legitimate Messiah

Matthew, who is the most Jewish of the Gospels, begins with the words, “Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.â€Â

Is Jesus Christ the legitimate heir to the throne of King David? How can we be sure that He is the only possible legal, and the royal Messiah of Israel?

Jesus Christ “was a descendent of David,†therefore His Jewish ancestry is very important to establish His legitimacy as the Jewish messiah.

God “promised beforehand through the prophets in the holy scriptures†things concerning the coming of the son of David. Those things related to the place, nature of His birth, life, death and resurrection. His Jewish background would demand that He be born of the line of David if He would be eligible to sit on the great king’s throne and reign forever as the true king of Israel.

The prophet Jeremiah was specific when he wrote in 23:5-6 of the coming of the royal son of David:

“Behold, the days are coming,†declares the Lord,
“When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;
And He will reign as king and act wisely
And do justice and righteousness in the land.
“In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
‘The Lord our righteousness.’â€Â

The Jewish writer Matthew uses the genealogy of Jesus of Nazareth to prove that Jesus had descended from King David and therefore qualified to be Israel’s Messiah. The promise had been given to King David, “Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before Me†(2 Samuel 7:16).

Matthew uses at least forty formal quotations from the Old Testament, and at least sixteen times he uses the formula, “all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet saying . . .†Matthew traces the origins of Jesus to King David and to the Jewish patriarch Abraham.

Matthew begins his genealogy with Abraham and moves forward through fourteen generations in history to David, and then his descendents through fourteen generations to the Babylonian exile, and another fourteen generations to “Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary by whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ†(Matt. 1:16).

Another genealogy is given by Luke, which moves in the opposite direction. He begins with Joseph and goes back to David, Abraham and Adam (Luke 3:31, 34, 38). He is giving evidence to show that Jesus “will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end†(1:32-33).

Both of the genealogies are dealing with the same person, Jesus the Messiah. Both trace the lineage of Jesus through His adopted father Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born.



The difficulty we encounter when we look at the two genealogies is quite interesting. They are the lines of two brothers and the children are cousins. Matthew says that Joseph was the son of Jacob who descended from David through David’s son and successor King Solomon (1:6). However, Luke says that Joseph was the son of Heli who had descended from David through Nathan (Luke 3:31), who was also David’s son and a brother of Solomon (v. 32).

Bernhard Weiss and James Orr carefully note that we are looking at two lineages of Joseph and Mary respectively, each who are descendents of King David. “Nathan’s line ran on through the years and ultimately produced the Virgin Mary. Solomon’s line ran on through the years and ultimately produced Joseph.†But Joseph was not the father of Jesus. He was the husband of Mary, the adoptive father of Jesus (Matt. 1:16). The distinction between these two lines of descent from David is between the “royal†line of those who actually sat on the throne and the “legal†line of descent from one oldest son to the next, even though these descendents never actually reigned as kings of Israel.

It is important to keep in mind these two lines of descendents from King David. Nathan was the older brother of Solomon, but the younger brother took the throne. Solomon was the king God chose to reign after David’s death. Normally, however, that would have fallen to the elder son, Nathan, who would have been king if God had not given it to Solomon. Of course, none of Nathan’s descendents ever claimed the throne. There were no reigning kings in his line of descendents, even though they had the legal right to the throne.

The line of Solomon continued down through the centuries until it eventually produced Joseph, who was betrothed to the virgin Mary who would eventually become her husband after she had given birth to Jesus. However, note very carefully that Jesus was not a descendent of Joseph. However, when Joseph took Mary under his protection and thus became the adoptive father of her divine child, he passed the right of royalty to Jesus.

Moreover, Jeremiah 22:30 tells us that if Jesus had descended from Joseph a divine curse would have been on Him. Jeremiah tells us a terrible curse was pronounced on king Jehoiachin (Jechonias, whom Jeremiah abbreviates to Coniah), the last of the actual reigning kings who descended from King Solomon.

“Thus says the Lord,
‘Write this man down childless,
A man who will not prosper in his days;
For no man of his descendants will prosper
Sitting on the throne of David
Or ruling again in Judah.’ â€Â

Because of God’s curse on Jehoiachin, no king who ever descended in that line could be a legitimate king. If Joseph had been the physical father of Jesus, Jesus could not have been the Messiah. Jesus is the son of Mary, not the son of Joseph and Mary.

But wait. What about Joseph and his descendents? Remember, Jesus was not a physical descendent of Joseph. Joseph was Jesus’ step-father. Each of his half brothers, who were the only other possible candidates for the Messiah had the curse of Jehoiachin on them and would have passed it on to their children if they had become king.

Because Jesus was a divine child his adoptive father handed the reign over to Him. Therefore, Jesus was a legitimate royal heir to the throne.

Donald Grey Barnhouse explains:

The line that had no curse upon it produced Heli and his daughter the Virgin Mary and her Son Jesus Christ. He is therefore eligible by the line of Nathan and exhausts that line. The line that had a curse on it produced Joseph and exhausts the line of Solomon, for Joseph’s other children now have an elder brother who, legally, by adoption, is the royal heir. How can the title be free in any case? A curse on one line and the lack of reigning royalty in the other.

But when God the Holy Spirit begat the Lord Jesus Christ in the womb of the virgin without any use of a human father, the child that was born was the seed of David according to the flesh. And when Joseph married Mary and took the unborn child under his protecting care, giving him the title that had come down to him through his ancestor Solomon, the Lord Jesus became the legal Messiah, the royal messiah, the uncursed messiah, the true Messiah, the only possible messiah. The lines are exhausted. Any man that ever comes into this world professing to fulfill the conditions will be a liar and the child of the devil (Man’s Ruin: Exposition of Bible Doctrines, Taking the Epistle to the Romans as a Point of Departure, vol. 1, Romans 1:1-32. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1952, p. 45-47).

Moreover, because Jesus descended from Mary, who also was a descendent of King David through the lineage of Nathan, He had a legal claim to the throne. The two lines of David focused on the Messiah. No one else could ever bring a legitimate claim to the throne of David.

Donald Barnhouse concludes, “If Jesus is not the Messiah who has descended from David according to the Old Testament prophecies, there will never be a Messiah. For Jesus had no human children, and each of his brothers (who are the only other possibilities through whom another messiah might descend) had the curse on him and would have passed it on to his children†and Jeremiah’s prophecy would thus be fulfilled.

Jesus Christ is the legitimate descendent from two lines of King David. He is the King announced in the Jewish prophecies. He is the King Messiah who was also the Son of God. He is the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords.†No one else can make that claim. He is the only possible legitimate Messiah. There can absolutely be no other.

How significant that the great prophecy that the Messiah King would come through the line of David was given just a few verses after the great words of judgment on the descendents of Jehoiachin. C. C. Ryrie notes, “If Jesus had been born only in the line of Joseph (and thus of Jechoniah, Heb. Coniah), He would not have been qualified to reign on the throne of David in the Millennium.†He also writes, “Had our Lord been the natural son of Joseph, He could not have been successful on the throne of David because of this curse. But since He came through Mary’s lineage, He was not affected by this curse.â€Â

Though Jechoniah’s sons never occupied the throne, the line of rulership passed through them. If Jesus had been a physical descendent of Jechoniah, He would not have been able to occupy David’s throne. Luke’s genealogy makes it clear that Jesus was a legal descendant of David through his son Nathan (Lk. 3:31). Joseph, a descendent of Solomon, was Jesus’ legal adoptive father, so Jesus traced His royal rights to the throne through Joseph.

Jesus Christ is the only legitimate legal Jewish Messiah. Let us bow and worship Him as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message by Wil Pounds (c) 2002. Anyone is free to use this material and distribute it, but it may not be sold under any circumstances whatsoever without the author's written consent. Scripture quotations from the New American Standard Bible (c) 1973 The Lockman Foundation.

http://www.abideinchrist.com/messages/legitmessiah.html

 

[DivineNames]

"The article doesn't seem to address the problems that have previously been mentioned-

Neither Joseph or Mary (assuming Luke gives the lineage of Mary) had a legit line, and neither of them could pass it to Jesus even if they did."

 

[Solo]

"The article doesn't seem to address the problems that have previously been mentioned-

Neither Joseph or Mary (assuming Luke gives the lineage of Mary) had a legit line, and neither of them could pass it to Jesus even if they did."

Well then I guess you will never know until you are standing before him at the judgment. That will be a pretty ugly moment for you. Hopefully the scales will fall from your eyes before then, and you will cease from your unbelief.

 

[AHIMSA]

If Jesus is indeed the "son of David", then what does he mean when he says:

Jesus asks the Pharisees "What do you think about the Christ, who's son is he?"

"The son of David" they answered
Jesus responds "How is it that David calls him Lord? If then David calls him Lord, how then can he be his son?"
Matthew 22: 41
Here Jesus rebukes any lineage to David, how is this explained?

 

[Solo]

If Jesus is indeed the "son of David", then what does he mean when he says:

Jesus asks the Pharisees "What do you think about the Christ, who's son is he?"

"The son of David" they answered
Jesus responds "How is it that David calls him Lord? If then David calls him Lord, how then can he be his son?"
Matthew 22: 41
Here Jesus rebukes any lineage to David, how is this explained?

Jesus was being questioned by those Jewish Scribes, Pharisees, and Saduccees in order to set him up in a trap. Jesus answered their questions in a way that they had no recourse but to leave him. After the Scribes decided that they better not ask any more questions, and were leaving, Jesus said asked them a question.

41 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son? 42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?
Luke 20:41-44

Jesus was asking how David could say that God said to the Christ (Messiah) who was foretold to be of David's lineage, "Sit on my right hand until I make your enemies underneath you." Jesus continued, "David called Christ his Lord, how was he then David's son?"

The Scribes did not answer because they knew that Jesus lineage back to David and his marvelous works proved Jesus to be the Messiah. The scribes did not argue Jesus' claim of being David's son and the Christ.

 

[DivineNames]

Well then I guess you will never know until you are standing before him at the judgment. That will be a pretty ugly moment for you. Hopefully the scales will fall from your eyes before then, and you will cease from your unbelief.

If Jesus can't have been the Messiah, what you describe isn't going to happen.

 

[Solo]

Well then I guess you will never know until you are standing before him at the judgment. That will be a pretty ugly moment for you. Hopefully the scales will fall from your eyes before then, and you will cease from your unbelief.

If Jesus can't have been the Messiah, what you describe isn't going to happen.

Jesus is the only one to have fulfilled all of the Old Testament prophesies relating to the Messiah. If you would like to have an intelligent debate concerning the Messiahship of Jesus, then show me the prophesies of the Old Testament that Jesus did not fulfill.

 

[DivineNames]

Jesus is the only one to have fulfilled all of the Old Testament prophesies relating to the Messiah. If you would like to have an intelligent debate concerning the Messiahship of Jesus, then show me the prophesies of the Old Testament that Jesus did not fulfill.

Does the lineage issue not involve a prophecy that Jesus didn't fulfill?

 

[Solo]

Jesus is the only one to have fulfilled all of the Old Testament prophesies relating to the Messiah. If you would like to have an intelligent debate concerning the Messiahship of Jesus, then show me the prophesies of the Old Testament that Jesus did not fulfill.

Does the lineage issue not involve a prophecy that Jesus didn't fulfill?

Show me the prophesy where his lineage is mentioned and then explain to me how Jesus lineage back to King David from Nathan and Solomon does not follow. All that I have read proves Jesus lineage back to David. Joseph being his foster father and Mary being his mother and God being his true father.

 

[DivineNames]

Show me the prophesy where his lineage is mentioned and

I'm sure you can easily find the verses claimed to be relevant. Do you wish to dispute them? then go ahead...

All that I have read proves Jesus lineage back to David. Joseph being his foster father and Mary being his mother and God being his true father.

According to Jews, the lineage can't go via a foster father, his mother, or a Deity. It can only go via his biological father.

Do you have reason to believe that this is wrong?

 

[Solo]

Show me the prophesy where his lineage is mentioned and

I'm sure you can easily find the verses claimed to be relevant. Do you wish to dispute them? then go ahead...

All that I have read proves Jesus lineage back to David. Joseph being his foster father and Mary being his mother and God being his true father.

According to Jews, the lineage can't go via a foster father, his mother, or a Deity. It can only go via his biological father.

Do you have reason to believe that this is wrong?

I thought you were a waste of time, and you proved it.
Some Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah, and others don't. Same as you and I.
Don't waste my time any more, life is too short.

 

[DivineNames]

Show me the prophesy where his lineage is mentioned and

I'm sure you can easily find the verses claimed to be relevant. Do you wish to dispute them? then go ahead...

All that I have read proves Jesus lineage back to David. Joseph being his foster father and Mary being his mother and God being his true father.

According to Jews, the lineage can't go via a foster father, his mother, or a Deity. It can only go via his biological father.

Do you have reason to believe that this is wrong?

I thought you were a waste of time, and you proved it.
Some Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah, and others don't. Same as you and I.
Don't waste my time any more, life is too short.

You obviously don't have any answer to the problem. Perhaps you are getting a little frustrated about that...

 

[AHIMSA]

I can see an error in the book of Matthew. There was no prophecy about a virgin birth, rather the Greek septugint that matthew was using mistranslated the word for 'young woman' in the book of Isaiah as 'virgin'. In the Hebrew original, the Hebrew word used is "almah" which means young woman, who could be a virgin or sexually active. The Hebrew word for virgin is different, "betulah."

"As it happens, the ancient Greek translators of the Septuagint and similar translations made an ancient error. They translated the Hebrew word "almah" into the Greek "parthenos", which usually means a "virgin." "Almah" appears 9 other times in the Hebrew Scriptures; in each case it means "young woman" - a female who might have been a virgin or might have been sexually active. When the Hebrew scriptures referred to a virgin (and they do over 50 times) they always used the Hebrew word "betulah." So, Isaiah was referring to a young woman becoming pregnant (a rather ordinary event) and not to a woman having conceived while still remaining a virgin (a miracle). During the Christian era, the passage has become so famous that many modern translators find it difficult to conform to the Hebrew original. Many duplicate the error of those ancient Greek translations."

The story in Isaiah 7:14 is unrelated to the birth of Jesus. 6 It describes a siege of Jerusalem by the Assyrians about 715 BCE. The child that was born to the young woman at the time was a sign from God that the siege would be lifted and that Jerusalem would continue as before"

Other Christians and previous Christians did not believe in the virgin birth


50ce : The writer(s) of the gospel of Q were unaware of the virgin birth.
64ce : Paul died without writing of the virgin birth.
70ce : The writer of the Gospel of Mark does not mention it.
90ce : The belief appears in the writings of Matthew and Luke.
The author(s) of John seemed committed to making it clear that Jesus' birth was not of a virgin, as if they did not believe it.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/matthew.html

 

[bibleberean]

All Hereticks reject the Virgin birth.

It is essential to remember that the main goal of frauds and hereticks is to cast dispersions on the word of God. That way they can create a false christ that is more to their liking. Undermine the scriptures and the "true faith" dies.

Psalms 11:3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

The motives of these people are varied. In some cases their motive may be as simple as trying to get their perverted, demented and disgusting sexual appetites to be seen as acceptable.

Common sense should tell us that those who desire to pervert the scriptures are most likely degenerate and perverted themselves.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

And "filthy" they are...

 

[DivineNames]

All Hereticks reject the Virgin birth.

It is essential to remember that the main goal of frauds and hereticks is to cast dispersions on the word of God. That way they can create a false christ that is more to their liking. Undermine the scriptures and the "true faith" dies.

Psalms 11:3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

The motives of these people are varied. In some cases their motive may be as simple as trying to get their perverted, demented and disgusting sexual appetites to be seen as acceptable.

Common sense should tell us that those who desire to pervert the scriptures are most likely degenerate and perverted themselves.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

And "filthy" they are...

:smt044

 

[AHIMSA]

The motives of these people are varied. In some cases their motive may be as simple as trying to get their perverted, demented and disgusting sexual appetites to be seen as acceptable.

Common sense should tell us that those who desire to pervert the scriptures are most likely degenerate and perverted themselves.

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[DivineNames]

Common sense should tell us that those who desire to pervert the scriptures are most likely degenerate and perverted themselves.

By your logic Matthew could well be a pervert and degenerate!!

:-D

 

[bibleberean]

No, by my logic the word of God is all true. That is what true Christians believe.

Psalms 119:42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Common sense should tell us that those who desire to pervert the scriptures are most likely degenerate and perverted themselves.

By your logic Matthew could well be a pervert and degenerate!!

:-D

You mean like omitting several generations so that the list from Abraham to David, David to the captivity, and the captivity to Christ, would come out to 14 each? :roll: