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How do you feel about Tradition?

How do you feel about tradition.

  • All tradition is bunk.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • The Bible is a tradition and is not bunk. The rest is bunk.

    Votes: 2 66.7%

  • There is oral tradition that is not bunk as long as it jives with the Bible which is a tradition.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • All tradition is okay as long as it is not elevated above God's word, the Bible which is not a tradi

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • All tradition is okay as long as it is not elevated above God's word, the Bible which is a tradition

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • There are neccessary oral traditions and scriptural traditions that make up the word of God.

    Votes: 1 33.3%

  • Other - Explain

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    3
Thess,
It is interesting that you believe I am attacking you and your sanity, by saying “persecution complexâ€Â, but I think if you look back at your reply, you already think I am personally attacking you with your comment “Catholic knocking routeâ€Â, when in fact I was arguing two points the meaning of communion and justification. Now, if you want an example of someone who attacks Catholicism indiscriminately, look at the other individuals who have responded to your post of late. In regards to sanity, one can be perfectly sane and still think someone is persecuting them, which I assure you, I am not.
Obviously, I just can’t seem to figure out what point you are asking for, so, for your sake and mine, I will say we have come to an impasse.
George
 
Well impasse or not, lets try to debate points in a post, not the person. Lets also try and keep personality conflicts off the boards and use PM's instead.

Thanks,
Vic
 
beza said:
Thess,
It is interesting that you believe I am attacking you and your sanity, by saying “persecution complexâ€Â, but I think if you look back at your reply, you already think I am personally attacking you with your comment “Catholic knocking routeâ€Â, when in fact I was arguing two points the meaning of communion and justification. Now, if you want an example of someone who attacks Catholicism indiscriminately, look at the other individuals who have responded to your post of late. In regards to sanity, one can be perfectly sane and still think someone is persecuting them, which I assure you, I am not.
Obviously, I just can’t seem to figure out what point you are asking for, so, for your sake and mine, I will say we have come to an impasse.
George
Click to expand...

My point with the Catholic knocking thing is that you can't make a single post, explaining your theology without saying something about Catholicism. You've demonstated my point quite nicely.

How difficult is my question. Imperfect at death as you admit. Perfect in heaven as you admit. What goes in the middle? Grace cleansing the heart. It's not difficult at all. But you cannot admit this. Why? Why should grace be a problem?

I simply don't
 
Beza,

Let me make it plain to you:

beza said:
Thess,
If you had read the post, you would had seen that it is in quotation with the author at the end. In regards to the Council of Trent, which you claim doesn't speak to those of us who believe in grace alone, was written by RCC people.
"CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."
"No dumping", just the truth about your religion and tradition. Beza
Click to expand...

You claim that Trent denies grace alone by this canon. It does not. Purgatory is all about grace and about sanctification. Those in purgatory can do nothing for themselves. They must bath in the cleansing fire of God's love, removing all human frailty and imperfection due to sin. The alcoholic who has repented but still desires the drink will have this desire, caused by his sins of the past removed. The theif who still desires to steal, though he has committed himself to Christ, by the grace of God will have this stain from his past sins removed for all eternity BY GOD ALMIGHTY, through the Holy Spirit, by his grace. Catholicism does not say there is one kind of grace. I thought you being the expert in Catholicism would know that. There is grace of justification, there is grace of sanctification, there is actual grace which moves us to do God's will. There is natural grace, recieved by all men and there is gratitous grace that is given to us for other men. There are other graces that God gives. Because you saw the words "grace of justification" you thought, that's it for the grace. Now he's got to do it for himself. That is not Catholic theology. We can do nothing on our own without his grace. We can do all things in him who strengthens us. So you misrepresent Catholic theology and post straw men. That's just a simple fact.
 
Thess,
I kind of thought it was the purgatory issue you were headed for, well, for what it is worth, sorry I offended you.
Take care, George
 
Thess,

Most of those that have replied to your original statement contained in this thread know 'why' you posted it. We have all been through much together in the past and most have a least a little idea of where the others are coming from. What you offer as your 'view', you know most Christians, (other than Catholics), will disagree with.

No body is bashing you personally, (at least I don't think they are), but the doctrine that you express a belief in. I have joked with you about racks and such but please believe that it WAS in jest and I know that you and every other Catholic are probably very ashamed of the behavior of this church in the past. I do not hold it's behavior of the past against you personally though and hope you understand this.

And I know that it must be tough on you, trying to offer your views to others that are unwilling to accept them. Welcome to the forums, he he he. Very few agree with my understanding either.

But you do realize that Protestants are called that because they disagreed with the Catholic teaching many hundreds of years ago. So please don't be surprised to have Protestants explain why they disagree with the Catholic doctrine. And you are correct that most Protestants are going to view the Catholics in pretty much the 'same' light. That's 'just' the way it is.

We still love ya though.
 
Thess,
By the way, "The thief on the cross" negates purgatory. May be you should start a post on "Purgatory", I bet that would get you some pretty wild responses.
George
 
beza said:
Thess,
By the way, "The thief on the cross" negates purgatory. May be you should start a post on "Purgatory", I bet that would get you some pretty wild responses.
George
Click to expand...

Only in your mind. Do you really think you know anything about Catholicism. The theif does nothing for the doctrine of purgatory. First of all he would have fit perfectly under baptism of desire. Secondly, the fact of the matter is that we do not believe in imputed righteousness but infused righteousness. Thus anyone baptized goes straight to heaven. You seem to think the Holy Spirit coming in to the new Christian does not have the power to do this. You are quite wrong. Now you will cry foul saying the Theif was not baptized. Baptism was not commanded for all men until after the resurrection.

May be you should start a post on "Purgatory", I bet that would get you some pretty wild responses.
Click to expand...

This is rather unintelligable. I think I did do a post on purgatory. And yes, I would get rain dances as I have gotten from you, ignorning how someone who's righteousness is only imputed can enter heaven as snow covered dung.
 
beza said:
Thess,
I kind of thought it was the purgatory issue you were headed for, well, for what it is worth, sorry I offended you.
Take care, George
Click to expand...

You haven't offended me at all. I had a quite lovely day out pheasent hunting with my son today. Don't sweat it. I've just been on these boards long enough and know my faith well enough that I know when someone is BSing me. And I don't feel the need to take any BS.

God bless
 
Imagican said:
Thess,

Most of those that have replied to your original statement contained in this thread know 'why' you posted it. We have all been through much together in the past and most have a least a little idea of where the others are coming from. What you offer as your 'view', you know most Christians, (other than Catholics), will disagree with.

No body is bashing you personally, (at least I don't think they are), but the doctrine that you express a belief in. I have joked with you about racks and such but please believe that it WAS in jest and I know that you and every other Catholic are probably very ashamed of the behavior of this church in the past. I do not hold it's behavior of the past against you personally though and hope you understand this.

And I know that it must be tough on you, trying to offer your views to others that are unwilling to accept them. Welcome to the forums, he he he. Very few agree with my understanding either.

But you do realize that Protestants are called that because they disagreed with the Catholic teaching many hundreds of years ago. So please don't be surprised to have Protestants explain why they disagree with the Catholic doctrine. And you are correct that most Protestants are going to view the Catholics in pretty much the 'same' light. That's 'just' the way it is.

We still love ya though.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your post. Yes, there are things in Catholic history that aren't the easiest to take. Men are sinners and the Catholic Church has it's share. But for those who actually apply the faith to their lives, they become great saints. One of the protestant preachers on TV noticed the great work done by those Catholics who actually live the faith and apply it to their lives. You refuse to read them. There are some incredible works by St. Teresa of Avillia, St. Catherine Genoa, St. Boneventura, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc. etc. The life of Mother Teresa and JPI are truly incredible. You look at the Catholic Church through its sins. I see it in a far different light. Further I see history in a different life. Many of the atrocities you claim were done by the Church were actually done by Governements. There were laws against heretics disrupting society. God will judge nations in the end. Romans 13 however does say that the sword can be used by governement. I am not saying there weren't wrongs done by Churchmen, bishops and even some popes. But my view of these things is much more broad than just the Church.

As for Catholics disagreeing with me, yes I am sure there are some. If anyone finds me to post anything contrary to Catholic teaching, by all means point it out. I will gladly submit to the Church. What I proclaim is consistent with the Catechism. To that end if someone who is Catholic disagrees with the Catechism, they are wrong. I am not at all surprized that Protestants oppose me. This is not the first board I have been on by any means. I've been debating protestants for years and have won a few over with the help of others. I have been hated by many as well. So nothing I've seen on this board surprizes me in the least.

Blessings
 
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