How do you feel about Tradition?

[thessalonian]

But aren't you making a few assumptions with this verse, Thess?

How do you know that these 'traditions' were NOT later written down in some of the other books of the Bible?

Well since he didn't write down that he was going to write it all down it would have to be a tradition that he did. :-D I guess John didn't know about the requirement that he write it all down because at the end of his third letter he says he would like to write more but that he would deliver it in person.


John 3
[12] Deme'trius has testimony from every one, and from the truth itself; I testify to him too, and you know my testimony is true.
[13]
I had much to write to you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink;
[14] I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face.

Keep in mind that Paul wrote this in ONE letter to a specific group of people.

So it is not for us? It is no longer true that there are oral traditions or that the Bible is a tradition? :o

You would have to assume that this was the LAST book that Paul ever wrote on the matter to assume that there is 'tradition' outside of what was 'written down'.

Well 2 Tim 3:15 is always said to prove Sola Scriptura. So does Paul teach Sola Scriptura to timothy and scripture + tradition to the thessalonians? Once again, to say he wrote it all down is a tradition because he never says that he did.

[/quote]It is an assumption to say that what Paul was saying was EXTRA information not included in the NT[/quote]

No more than yours and not circulatory in nature with regard to logic.

 

[Bubba]

Thess,
The articles you have responded to are not the ones I would call into question. Address 9,12,14,23,24,30 and 33, then we will talk about my ignorancy of the Council of Trent.
Beza
ps, why did the Council of Trent meet? What was the concern during that period of time?

 

[thessalonian]

Thess,
The articles you have responded to are not the ones I would call into question. Address 9,12,14,23,24,30 and 33, then we will talk about my ignorancy of the Council of Trent.
Beza
ps, why did the Council of Trent meet? What was the concern during that period of time?

If you had read my post you would have seen that I said I ran out of time and will comment on the rest later. I know what they say. You already did a fine job posting your ignorance of Catholicism by associating yourself with that cut and paste article that was full of nonsense.

ps, why did the Council of Trent meet? What was the concern during that period of time?

Don't you know. It's called the deformation.

 

[Bubba]

Thess,
I should have pasted just those articles I had a problem with, thus saving you the trouble of responding to those I didn’t struggle with. Yes, I did read your post, and that is why I gave you the articles to respond to. My questions were rhetorical, because you and I both know the reason for the gathering of the Council of Trent, it was the 5 Solas of the reformation, causing problems for the RCC, especially Sola Fide (doctrine of Justification), thus the curses.
Beza

 

[thessalonian]

Thess,
I should have pasted just those articles I had a problem with, thus saving you the trouble of responding to those I didn’t struggle with. Yes, I did read your post, and that is why I gave you the articles to respond to. My questions were rhetorical, because you and I both know the reason for the gathering of the Council of Trent, it was the 5 Solas of the reformation, causing problems for the RCC, especially Sola Fide (doctrine of Justification), thus the curses.
Beza

Yes, then you could have ignored the one in particular that you expect I will have trouble with regarding grace and faith alone. You separate it from the context of the others and other Catholic teaching is your error. They are not individual statements. Further they need to be understood in context of the time and the doctrines they are meant to refute. One pope condemned democracy. Another (Pius XII) praised it. Do you suppose that these popes are contradicting eachother or that the first condemned all democracy. No. He was speaking against aethistic democracy of the Frence Revloution while Pius XII was speaking in favor of American democracy. Context, including context of the Church, makes all the difference in the world when understanding these things.
.

 

[thessalonian]

Thess,
Less I be accused of being bias, this is a RCC source for the Mass:

Beza,


You actually prove your bias. For in selectively quoting Catholic documents and even ignoring some of the statements above while making other points, and leaving out many other statements by the Church which refute your claims and which must be taken in to consideration when understanding these things. For example:

1367

The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."

You quote this, yet above in your cut and paste post you claim that we resacrifice Christ, i.e. that it is multiple sacrifices. It is not multiple sacrifices but one sacrifice. A man in Minneota points down and says, "this is the earth". A man in china says "this is the earth" and a man in Europe says "this is the earth". There are not three earths but one. Likewise while there are many masses there is one sacrifice which is the one sacrifice on Calvary, represented. A mystery that is beyond our understanding but that is the Catholic teaching you have clearly twisted, showing your bias.

You say:

8. It is called the sacrifice of Christ which is offered via the priest's hands
. "The sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands," (CCC 1369);

and above your author (and therefore you) claim the priest makes God. You show your bias, ignoring the very words of the Mass which say "And so, Father, we bring you these gifts. We ask you to make them holy by the power of your Spirit, that they may become the body and blood of yourSon, our Lord Jesus Christ, at whose command we celebrate this Eucharist"

You on a whim in order to create strawmen, selectively quote Church documents and ignore other parts of Church teaching in order to make your doctrines you want Catholicism to teach so that the teachings sound foolish to those you wish to decieve in to leaving the Church. This is harsh but it is a fact your last post proved, rather than refuted.

 

[Bubba]

Thess,
Words mean nothing , if I were to strictly accept your post's. You say,
"It is not multiple sacrifices but one sacrifice", yet how else can you interpret these writings? Am I still presenting a "strawman"? Beza
1. As often as the Sacrifice of the Cross in which 'Christ, our Passover, has been sacrificed' (1 Corinthians. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar (i.e. during the mass), the work of our redemption is carried on (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church).
2. The august sacrifice of the altar, then, is no mere empty commemoration of the passion and death of Jesus Christ, but a true and proper act of sacrifice, whereby the High Priest by an unbloody immolation offers Himself a most acceptable victim to the Eternal Father, as He did upon the cross (Mediator Dei, Encyclical of Pope Pius XII)
3. It is a good idea to recall at the very outset what may be termed the heart and core of the doctrine, namely that, by means of the Mystery of the Eucharist, the Sacrifice of the Cross which was once carried out on Calvary is re-enacted in wonderful fashion and is constantly recalled, and its salvific power is applied to the forgiving of the sins we commit each day (Mysterium Fidei; Encyclical of Pope Paul VI).

 

[thessalonian]

Thess,
Words mean nothing , if I were to strictly accept your post's. You say,
"It is not multiple sacrifices but one sacrifice",

Sheesh! I quoted the Catechism on it.

1367 Quote:
The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are ONE SINGLE SACRIFICE: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."

Yet you turn around and make up your own Catholic dogma. That is clear bias. So Beza bud can't graspe and acknowledge what the Catholic dogma is so he makes up his own multi-sacrifice doctrine that is NOWHERE in any Catholic teaching and says there I have refuted you. Very sad.

yet how else can you interpret these writings? Am I still presenting a "strawman"? Beza

YES! Most clearly and definitely except to you.



You apparently are not able to grasp my analogy of the earth being one earth even though it is called the earth in multiple places at multiple times in history. Was there another earth at the time of Christ because the Bible names the earth then? God is eternal and omnipresent and so the analogy works very well. Christ's sacrifice is as timeless as the earth. It was physically present at calvary. It is spiritually present today. It is an eternal and perpetual sacrifice. Shall I quote Catholic documents to support my position. You know in all your quoting I don't see anywhere that it uses the word sacrificeSSSSS. Do you. Very odd. Nowhere does it speak anywhere in Catholic theology or teaching of the Holy Sacrifices of the Masses. You need to open your mind up to understand beza, even if you don't agree. God is beyond your ability to comprehend. So is the Mass. Yet it is not illogical and I have presented it here for you. At least acknowledge that this is the Catholic teaching rather than trying to show it is multiple sacrifices. By the way I would like your response on the priest making God as well.

Blessings

 

[Bubba]

1. As a sacrifice
A. "the holy sacrifice of the Eucharist," (CCC 1055) and "the Eucharist is also a sacrifice," (CCC 1365);

Note that sacrifice is the death of Christ for our sins, yet in the RCC tradition, the Eucharist which is the commemorate (bread and wine) is consider to be the actual Body of Christ sacrificed, which the RCC priest administrates through his prayers and rituals to cause this transubstantiation, each time the Mass is done.

2. As a divine sacrifice
. "For it is in the liturgy, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, that "the work of our redemption is accomplished," (CCC 1068);

A “divine sacrificeâ€Âmeans just that, God (divine Jesus) is sacrificed (die again) and the work of redemption is accomplished, each and every time the Mass is done.

3. As a representation of the sacrifice of Christ
. "The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross," (CCC 1366);

Note, not represents, but re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice (death of Jesus) of the cross, each and every time, the Mass is done.

4. Is 'one single sacrifice' with Christ's sacrifice
. "The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice," (CCC 1367);

The sacrifice (death) of Christ and the sacrifice (death) of the Eucharist (Christ after transubstantiation), each and every time the Mass is done.

5. It is the same sacrifice of Christ
. "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner (CCC 1367);

This same Christ is offered on the altar in a unbloody manner every time Mass is done, an altar and a sacrifice is the actual death of someone or something, thus Christ did not die once and for all in the RCC tradition, because He is again made into the bread and wine of the Eucharist as a sacrifice.

6. It is propitiatory (removes the wrath of God)
. "...this sacrifice is truly propitiatory," (CCC 1367);

I guess the question becomes, is the Eucharist who now is the Body and Blood of Christ, becomes the propitiation of our sins, each and every time the Mass is done? Yes, if these quotes are taken to their inevitable conclusion, by a rational mind.

7. To all who deny its propitiatory nature Trent pronounces anathema
. "If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and of thanksgiving; or, that it is a bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice; or, that it profits him only who receives; and that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead for sins, pains, satisfactions, and other necessities; let him be anathema." (Trent: On the Sacrifice of the Mass: Canon 3);

Mind you that the curse is for all those who would disagree with any aspect of the Council of Trent (see canon33) or that the Mass is not the actual Body and Blood of Christ, the “divine sacrificeâ€Â, each and every time there is a Mass.

8. It is called the sacrifice of Christ which is offered via the priest's hands
. "The sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands," (CCC 1369);
9. It is capable of making reparation of sins:
. "As sacrifice, the Eucharist is also offered in reparation for the sins of the living and the dead," (CCC 1414);
10. It is to be considered a true and proper sacrifice:
"The Church intends the Mass to be regarded as a 'true and proper sacrifice'", (The Catholic Encyclopedia, topic: Sacrifice of the Mass).

Though you do not see multible sacrifices being performed, what else could it be, if the priest’s prayers bring on this transformation of the actual sacrifice of the actual Body and Blood of Christ, each and every day that the Mass performed?
.

1. As often as the Sacrifice of the Cross in which 'Christ, our Passover, has been sacrificed' (1 Corinthians. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar (i.e. during the mass), the work of our redemption is carried on (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church).

“As often†(more than once)… “is celebrated on the altar (place of death)†which is during the Mass, “the work of our redemption is carried onâ€Â. Kind of reads like if the Mass isn’t happening there is no redemption.

2. The august sacrifice of the altar, then, is no mere empty commemoration of the passion and death of Jesus Christ, but a true and proper act of sacrifice, whereby the High Priest by an unbloody immolation offers Himself a most acceptable victim to the Eternal Father, as He did upon the cross (Mediator Dei, Encyclical of Pope Pius XII)

What is the true and proper act of sacrifice, the actual death of Jesus presented in the Eucharist according to RCC’S.


3. It is a good idea to recall at the very outset what may be termed the heart and core of the doctrine, namely that, by means of the Mystery of the Eucharist, the Sacrifice of the Cross which was once carried out on Calvary is re-enacted in wonderful fashion and is constantly recalled, and its salvific power is applied to the forgiving of the sins we commit each day (Mysterium Fidei; Encyclical of Pope Paul VI).

The actual (Body and Blood of Jesus) “sacrifice of the cross†is re-enacted. The death of Jesus, each and every time the priest performs the Mass (“constantly recalled, and its salvific power is applied to the forgiving of the sins we commit each dayâ€Â).

Again, if words mean anything, according to these quotes, the actual sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Jesus, is performed by the RCC priest, thus through his prayer and ritual he has re-created the sacrifice and actual Body of Christ, each and every day, the Mass is done.
Beza

 

[Imagican]

Hey guys, what's the 'big' deal. If you 'believe' in what you believe in, why try and justify it to us heretics?

I keep hearing you 'change' the words of your own church in order to justify that which isn't Biblical. Just admit it and move on. Admit that much of your tradition is man-made and ignore the comments that we may make about it. Your choice.

So far, I have tried to be diplomatic in my pointing out of the faults and flaws contained within the Catholic doctrine and past practices. I have skirted around the edges of truth about the atrocities that this group has performed against God and man. If you choose to continue to defend this 'man-made' religion, more power to ya, and good-luck.

If by tradition you refer to rape, murder, torture, murder, false idol worship, murder, polytheism, murder, worshipping 'a' man, murder, forbidding to marry, murder, killing Christ, murder, molesting children, murder, etc..........murder, etc..., murder, etc.............. I believe that ALL THIS TRADITION IS BUNK.

The FRUIT guys, the FRUIT! if you deny all this, offer me 'other' fruit. Show me 'good' things that this cult has offered to humanity. They have done 'nothing' other than to try their best to destroy Christians and replace THE truth, with 'their' truth. Man-made theology that contradicts God's Word.

And you guys trying to sugar coat the past by trying to say that there have been 'bad' people at times in the RCC don't' cut it. It's the theology of this 'man-made' religion that has brought about these 'bad' people. For the love of money is the 'root' of 'all' evil. Murdering, torturing, manipulation of people for their wealth has been a bench mark of the RCC. And we haven't even hit upon the depraved sexual practices of the leaders of this group yet.

So, if I were you and didn't want everyone present to have knowledge of this, 'I would just be a good little boy' and sit back and try and defend my beliefs without trying to defend this 'false' teaching. If you truly knew God you would know that the ONLY reason that you would call me the 'heretic' is that you cringe each and every time that you are confronted with the 'truth'. God, nor Jesus, nor Their people cringe when faced with the truth. We revel in it, and can't get enough of it.

Blood of the Saints. If I had murdered so many, I too would be praying to them. Not asking them for anything other than their forgiveness for the sins I committed against them.

 

[thessalonian]

Hey guys, what's the 'big' deal. If you 'believe' in what you believe in, why try and justify it to us heretics?

What, is this some attempt to silence us about the teachings of Christ. Sorry they hurt your ears.

I keep hearing you 'change' the words of your own church in order to justify that which isn't Biblical. Just admit it and move on. Admit that much of your tradition is man-made and ignore the comments that we may make about it. Your choice.

Ah yes. Bow down to Protestants who tell us what we believe. Tell us what our Church teaches, twisting and distorting it. Displaning ignorance. I say this not to boast but you guys are like fourth graders trying to explain nuclear physics to to a nuclear scientist.
I've changed nothing with regard to the meaning. None of Catholic tradition is man-made. Much of Protestant tradition is man-made. Even your doctrines which contradict others and your nullifying the WOG when it says there are to be leaders is man made and if you have children you will teach it to them and it will become a tradition. I do not ignore any comments and answer most all of them. They are simply wrong.

So far, I have tried to be diplomatic in my pointing out of the faults and flaws contained within the Catholic doctrine and past practices. I have skirted around the edges of truth about the atrocities that this group has performed against God and man. If you choose to continue to defend this 'man-made' religion, more power to ya, and good-luck.

Ah, the seething hatred begins to come out. There were sinners in the Catholic Church and you are not apparently.
In your infallible mind you have proven something.

If by tradition you refer to rape, murder, torture, murder, false idol worship, murder, polytheism, murder, worshipping 'a' man, murder, forbidding to marry, murder, killing Christ, murder, molesting children, murder, etc..........murder, etc..., murder, etc.............. I believe that ALL THIS TRADITION IS BUNK.

Are you accusing the Catholic Church of teaching murder, torture, rape, false idol worship, polytheism, worshippin a man? Then you are simply a liar committing an atrocity. Bearing false witness is a commandment as much as murder. Stand accused.

The FRUIT guys, the FRUIT! if you deny all this, offer me 'other' fruit. Show me 'good' things that this cult has offered to humanity. They have done 'nothing' other than to try their best to destroy Christians and replace THE truth, with 'their' truth. Man-made theology that contradicts God's Word.

Your blanket condmenation of all without knowing the whole story is duly noted. Countless Men like St. Francis Xavier, St. Francis of Assisi, St. John Vianney lived examplary lives following the Catholic faith to a T. That is the fruits of those who live what is taught them. They converted more to Christ by accident than you will on purpose. St. Francis Xavier converted nearly 1 million to Christ. You must have a Church without sinners or you will not sign up. You must have no tares in your wheat or wolves in your flock or it's not for you. Well let me tell you something. You better quit your own little one man denom.

And you guys trying to sugar coat the past by trying to say that there have been 'bad' people at times in the RCC don't' cut it. It's the theology of this 'man-made' religion that has brought about these 'bad' people. For the love of money is the 'root' of 'all' evil. Murdering, torturing, manipulation of people for their wealth has been a bench mark of the RCC. And we haven't even hit upon the depraved sexual practices of the leaders of this group yet.

Nope. It is the corrupt nature of God which God will only reform if we let him and some in the Church have not let him. You know nothing about what you speak and prove yourself a biggot.

So, if I were you and didn't want everyone present to have knowledge of this, 'I would just be a good little boy' and sit back and try and defend my beliefs without trying to defend this 'false' teaching. If you truly knew God you would know that the ONLY reason that you would call me the 'heretic' is that you cringe each and every time that you are confronted with the 'truth'.

A legend in his own mind. Yep, you've found me out. Sarcasm out.

God, nor Jesus, nor Their people cringe when faced with the truth. We revel in it, and can't get enough of it. I know, I know, you are wishing right now that you could stretch me out on the 'rack' and make me recant my words and confess that I am a sinner that has refused to accept that the pope is God. Fortunately, for now, you are unable to treat the world this way.

I was thinking a pile of wood and some matches. The Pope is not God and noone has EVER been told to state that he is. This is seething hatred in your soul. You hate us as bad as you claim we hate you. That is obvious by your little tantrum this morning because we have not bowed the knee to your personal opinions of the Bible.

Blood of the Saints. If I had murdered so many, I too would be praying to them. Not asking them for anything other than their forgiveness for the sins I committed against them.

Venom, hatred, and biggotry will not let you have a rational thought. There is no point in discussing with you any more.

God bless

 

[JM]

I believe: "...Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith for the Church. The doctrine [sola scriptura] does not say that there are not other, fallible, rules of faith, or even traditions, that we can refer to and even embrace. It does say, however, that the only infallible rule of faith is Scripture. This means that all other rules, whether we call them traditions, confessions of faith, creeds, or anything else, are by nature inferior to and subject to correction by, the Scriptures. The Bible is an ultimate authority, allowing no equal, nor superior, in tradition or church. It is so because it is theopneustos, God-breathed, and hence embodies the very speaking of God, and must, of necessity therefore be of the highest authority. So as you can see, your definition does not correspond well to the actual doctrine." James White

I just wanted to re-state the above.

 

[thessalonian]

Beza,

You are overlaying meaning on to the words. That is a simple fact that has already been shown quite clearly to all accept you. You post singular statements that you think prove your point of multiple sacrifices and ignore statements I put out that show otherwise. I give you other statements and a very clear anology and you do not engage your mind. Catholicism can't even teach it's own theology. We cannot explain it. We are told by someone who only parrots what Protestants think, what we teach. The Catholic Churhc does not teach that the Mass is multiple sacrifices but one eternal, perpetual sacrifice. We are discrete finite people so it is not surprizing that you cannot grasp this, especially since to do so would invalidate your little tradition of man that there is no hierarchy and that the Eucharist is just a symbol. You are wiser than the Church. There is little I can do for you.

The Eucharist is consecrated THROUGH the priest but by the Holy Spirit. You do believe in the Holy Spirit don't you. You do believe that the Holy Spirit dwells within us don't you? Now you apprantly say this is impossible that the bread and wine become Jesus body and blood. If the Holy Spirit is there then why do you doudt that this can happen. The Holy Spirit has proven he can bring God in to the physical realm. Without the Holy Spirit the priest can do nothing. Bread will remain bread. You can keep twisting the teaching to "prove" your arguements all you want. But the Catholic teaching is clear in this regard. Deal with the teaching. Not your distortions of it. You must say and prove "there is no holy spirit in priests, therefore while the Catholic teaching is that the Holy Spirit changes the bread and wine in to the body and blood of Christ, it is impossible for it to happen". Then you must prove it from scripture. Otherwise you cannot say that it is impossible. That is just simple fact.

Present me with Catholic teaching and then refute it rather than your twisted distortions of it, knocking down straw men.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Thess,
If you had read the post, you would had seen that it is in quotation with the author at the end. In regards to the Council of Trent, which you claim doesn't speak to those of us who believe in grace alone, was written by RCC people.
"CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."
"No dumping", just the truth about your religion and tradition. Beza

Beza,

Do you believe in imputed righteousness? That is sinner is declared righteous, though not truly righteous at the point of his salvation. That the rigtheousness is gained through a process of sanctification? Do you belive God chastises us for our sins AFTER we become Christians?\

Note I am asking what you believe. Not twisting and distorting it and then throwing it back at you as what you beleive.

 

[cj]

........ Catholicism can't even teach it's own theology. We cannot explain it........ The Catholic Churhc does not teach that the Mass is multiple sacrifices but one eternal, perpetual sacrifice.

Can't teach,.... teach,.... can't teach,.... teach,...

Cannot explain it,..... can explain it,.... cannot explain it,.... can explain it,....


Sounds confusing right?

Exactly.

Its how the leading perpetrators of this demonic institution have managed to lord it over simple folk for centuries.

Confuse and divide,... it the way of Satan.

And Thess, your own words prove that you're stuck right in the middle of it.


In love,
cj

 

[thessalonian]

Thess,
The articles you have responded to are not the ones I would call into question. Address 9,12,14,23,24,30 and 33, then we will talk about my ignorancy of the Council of Trent.
?

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.


We can justify OURSELVES by our faith? Not everyone who says Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but those who do the will of the Father. That is scripture. If you don't like it talk to God about it. The word faith is used 273 times in scritpure and only once is it used with alone. It happens to be with regard to being justified. Shall I quote it? It's not much help to you. I think this cannon stands on pretty firm Biblical ground. However it should be noted that to co-operate takes grace as well so grace alone as you would claim is not violated by this canon.

CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

I am not surprized that you left this one out of your list that you are against, even though it denies imputed righteousness as the means of justification, which is generally against Protestant teaching.

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

Once again, faith must be acted upon. Faith that is alone is truly alone. In fact it is not true faith. Faith without works is dead. See comment above... "not everyone who says Lord, Lord...."

CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.

I am looking for that verse in the Bible that says "if you forgive your own sins, they are fogiven.". I don't see it. John 20:21 however does say "whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven". So we have the God given authority to the Apostles of forgiving sins by the power of the Holy Spirit. I go with the Bible. Men need certainty about the forgiveness of sin. God has given us a way we can KNOW FOR SURE our sins are fogiven by him. We go through is sacrament.

CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.

What part of this don't you like. The Blessed Virgin part I would assume. I'll save it to see how you react to the others. It would take getting in to the parrellel of Mary and the Ark of the Covenant which is quite clear in scripture. But likely you will deny it. I would guess you are okay with the rest of it? I will not tell you what you believe about the rest of it but by common courtesy ask you what you believe.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

Works are brought about by grace. Note the story of the three men with talents. One is given 5 and produces 5 more. One given 2 and produces two more. Note that when these men do well with there talents they are sent on to greater things. Grace works the same way. We are given grace to do good. The good produces more good, in some thirty, some sixty, and some 100 fold. Do you doudt that God will not do greater things in these people. The basis of which is the grace already given and the fruit produced because of it.




Gotta go. I'll handle 30, 33, later.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

........ Catholicism can't even teach it's own theology. We cannot explain it........ The Catholic Churhc does not teach that the Mass is multiple sacrifices but one eternal, perpetual sacrifice.

Can't teach,.... teach,.... can't teach,.... teach,...

Cannot explain it,..... can explain it,.... cannot explain it,.... can explain it,....


Sounds confusing right?

Exactly.

Its how the leading perpetrators of this demonic institution have managed to lord it over simple folk for centuries.

Confuse and divide,... it the way of Satan.

And Thess, your own words prove that you're stuck right in the middle of it.


In love,
cj

CJ,

Thanks for distorting and twisting my words and taking them out of context. You only prove my point about what Protestants do to Catholic theology.

 

[Bubba]

Thess,
In regards to what I believe about communion, I believe Christ is present spiritually to all true believers and it is a means of grace, as the individual remembers the cross of Jesus. John chapter 6,speaks to Jesus being the bread of life, the manna from heaven, prior to Him stating that to have eternal life one must eat His body and blood, thus I believe He was speaking figuratively. In respect to faith, I believe that saving faith is a gift from God and until God causes a quickening (regeneration) no one will believe in His Son. All those whom He quickens, will believe, because the Spirit is efficacious (Eph.2:1-9, Ezek. 36:24-32). I believe that all those whom He calls, will not fall from grace (John 10:28, Rom. 8:38-39, Phil.1:6). I believe all our good works in the sanctification process comes from God (Eph.2:10, Phil. 2:13). Yet, one can not be presumptuous, real faith will have good works (James 2:17). I believe the moment that one believes on Jesus unto salvation, that His righteousness is imputed to the individual (Col.1:13-14) not infused over time.

Beza
ps, in regards to Canon 23, it is not Mary that concerns me, it is the grace aspect, which is unmovable and unremovable from the saint. Though I do not believe one ceases from sinning at conversion.

 

[Imagican]

Thess,

I don't hate you or your religion. Fortunately for me, I was born in a different era. No one that I know personally has had to suffer at the hands of your 'faith'.

I do appreciate history though, and have read much in it about those that would have others believe that 'their way' is the 'only way' and how they were willing to stop at nothing in order to force it upon them or die.

How this organization has preyed upon the people under their control and completely destroyed cultures 'in the name of God'.

I don't 'hate' Hitler. I don't hate Ghengis Khan. I don't hate Timothy Leary, heck, I really can't think of 'anyone' that I hate. But the 'truth' does hurt doesn't it?

I have offered no lies here. I would consider the examples set by those that are the leaders of ANY religion as 'teaching'. I know, I know, the masses didn't get to participate in the tourcher and murder except from the pointed end of the stick. But Thess, we have the history now and the evil is obvious. These weren't people concerned with 'saving the souls' of their 'fellow man', these were people that were only concerned with 'destroying men's souls' and satisfying their own lusts for power, wealth, and the fulfillment of their sadistic tendencies towards their 'fellow man'. Hey, I didn't cause it or participate in it, I'm just a messenger.

Now, I ask you, are you unaware of the history of the 'faith' that you choose to follow?

And I must admit to a serious level of stupidity concerning your accusing me of being a "Protestant". The stupidity being that I failed to realize that I can't be ANY thing other than a Protestant by worshiping Christ any other way than 'your way'. I apologize for my stupidity.I guess I really am a Protestant whether I want to be or not.

So, by following and defending these murderous fathers of this 'faith', I assume that you condone the atrocious things that they've done, in the name of Christ. By condoning it, I assume that, for you, it was 'OK'. Now, if there's anyone that could stand accused of hatred towards others.....................

And thank you for reminding me of those that were burned alive, drownded, torn limb from limb, hung upside down, gutted alive, boiled alive, cut in little pieces, starved to death, kept in darkness for months at a time,.......................................................................................

Golly guy, I would react and respond the same way if you came in here and tried to defend Hitler or Stalin. What I'm really wondering is if you have really been able to lie to yourself and pretend to yourself that what I state is nothing more than my vivid imagination. And I suppose that Rome never murdered Christians either. The arena was simply used for cute little plays and lion tamers. Mmm hmmm.

Beza, I understand the purpose and content of your posts concerning the 'mass'. It's a bit deep for some though and I didn't even bring this up because I knew that they wouldn't admit it or would change the meaning of the words in order to defend it. What I offer is the 'truth' that can easily be proven with just a 'little' study. Pretending to murder Christ each day though, is probably not as bad as murdering your brother every day. No, no, Thess, you can't get away with it any more, but that is a very LARGE part of the way in which this religion was able to flourish. Forced religion is anti-Christ. We were commanded to love God first and our brother as our selves. I don't remember reading about the Bishops murdering each other and themselves. This did happen of course, but their favorite pass time was tourchering their followers. Kind of sounds like something out of a horror movie huh. Also kind of sounds like what hell will be like. Those in charge hurting their brothers.

I guess my problem is that I don't really understand love. If I see a brother that hasn't accepted Christ, I guess I should give him an ultimatum. If he refuses, I should kill him out of love. Better that he should die lost, than to die lost, huh? Guess I just don't have the guts to love that much.

 

[Bubba]

Thess,
These are Bible verses to my objections of selected articles of the Council of Trent.
George (Beza)

CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin," (Rom. 3:20).

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," (Rom. 3:24).

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28).

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8).

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost," (Titus 3:5).

CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name," (John 1:12).

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28).

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself," (Heb. 7:25-27).

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day," (2 Tim. 1:12).

Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).

Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," (John 3:36).

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day," (John 6:40).

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand," (John 10:28).

"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord," (Rom. 5:21).

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us," (1 John 2:19).

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God," (1 John 5:13).

Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."
"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3).
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law," (Gal. 5:1-3).
Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross," (Col. 2:13-14).
Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.