How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

[JLB]

Logos' smartphone app is pretty cool as well.

For example, you can use their word study tool and see graphically how various Greek/Hebrew words are used throughout the Bible. In this way, you can see if a word's scope has a potential to legitimately be used figuratively by Inspired authors.

I've heard here on this thread by some that "worm" is a reference to a shriveled up burning human body. And destruction is a reference to torture. However, when you look at the scope of usage for each, Biblically speaking, you find no evidence for these claims:

View attachment 4536

Biblically, destruction really does mean what it sounds like it means.

View attachment 4537

All of those scriptures but one refer to the destruction of the flesh.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

Everlasting destruction!

Destruction that continues as punishment forever and ever, day and night without rest, with weeping and gnashing of teeth.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

Isa 66:24 KJV And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm( H8438) shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

No Jesus isn't talking about immortal worms he's talking about how the worms will continue to devour.

It's their worm and their fire. It doesn't say worms will eat them forever. It says their worm shall not die. Isa. 66:24 refers to the bodies of the men who rebelled against the LORD. Their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched. We can debate this, but whether it is the body or the punishment, it is never ending. Where does it say they are annihilated?

 

[chessman]

Destruction that continues as punishment forever and ever, day and night without rest, with weeping and gnashing of teeth.


JLB

Ah, so you are saying the Bible teaches unending punishing (a verb) and unending destroying (a verb). Is that right?

Then how come destruction is a noun, not a verb in 1 Thess 1:9?

How come Paul says:

Philippians 3:18-19 the enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction,

How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

C.I. leaves destruction as a noun as written and consistent with the rest of the usages (NT AND OT).

E.C.T. Changes destruction into a verb (a process of destroying) and forces one to assume Paul meant the word destruction in 1 Thess 1:9 inconsistently with his other meanings for the same word and Isaiah's word.

Isaiah 1:28 But rebels and sinners will be completely destroyed,and those who desert the Lord will be consumed. ​

 

[MarkT]

How then can man be righteous before God?
How can he who is born of woman be clean?
5 Behold, even the moon is not bright
and the stars are not clean in his sight;
6 how much less man, who is a maggot,
and the son of man, who is a worm!” Job 25: 4-6

But I am a worm, and no man;
scorned by men, and despised by the people. Psalms 22: 6

Job and David agree man is a worm.

 

[JLB]

Ah, so you are saying the Bible teaches unending punishing (a verb) and unending destroying (a verb). Is that right?

Then how come destruction is a noun, not a verb in 1 Thess 1:9?

How come Paul says:

Philippians 3:18-19 the enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction,

How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

C.I. leaves destruction as a noun as written and consistent with the rest of the usages (NT AND OT).

E.C.T. Changes destruction into a verb (a process of destroying) and forces one to assume Paul meant the word destruction in 1 Thess 1:9 inconsistently with his other meanings for the same word and Isaiah's word.

Isaiah 1:28 But rebels and sinners will be completely destroyed,and those who desert the Lord will be consumed. ​

Noun?

Verb?

How about they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever?

JLB

 

[Stan1953]

Ah, so you are saying the Bible teaches unending punishing (a verb) and unending destroying (a verb). Is that right?

Then how come destruction is a noun, not a verb in 1 Thess 1:9?

How come Paul says:

Philippians 3:18-19 the enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction,

How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

C.I. leaves destruction as a noun as written and consistent with the rest of the usages (NT AND OT).

E.C.T. Changes destruction into a verb (a process of destroying) and forces one to assume Paul meant the word destruction in 1 Thess 1:9 inconsistently with his other meanings for the same word and Isaiah's word.

Isaiah 1:28 But rebels and sinners will be completely destroyed,and those who desert the Lord will be consumed. ​

The Bible says what it says. It doesn't need to translated as it already is. edited
1 Thess 1:9 NIV ???

 

[chessman]

1 Thess 1:9 NIV ???

That's a lot of question marks for a passage (the 2 Thess one) that says eternal destruction. Are you questioning whether Paul meant eternal torture instead of eternal destruction? He didn't. He meant what he clearly said.

 

[JLB]

That's a lot of question marks for a passage (the 2 Thess one) that says eternal destruction. Are you questioning whether Paul meant eternal torture instead of eternal destruction? He didn't. He meant what he clearly said.

Tormented day and night forever and ever.

Everlasting punishment.

Everlasting destruction.

All mean the same thing.

 

[Brother Mike]

.

Isaiah 1:28 But rebels and sinners will be completely destroyed,and those who desert the Lord will be consumed. ​

The way of the transgressor is hard, and rebels and sinners are destroyed from the earth to have no more part under the sun. The body is consumed and turns to dust.

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(2Th 1:9)

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

If the Holy Spirit meant completely vanished, discentagrated, made to powder then He would have used kataluō

The Greek Adjective before the Noun tells us what is taking place. Aionios (forever, everlasting) Destruction and Everlasting being away from the glory and power of the Lord. Had they been just dissolved into poweder then no mention of being away from the power and glory of the Lord.

Part of the everlasting punishment Jesus mentioned and Dan 12 mentioned is a forever process of olethros (Destruction prolong form of an act of destroying)

1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

Here the same Greek word is used in a sense of continual drowning. Olethros (Destruction) and they get perdition. The word does not mean to disintegrate. They get destruction and perdition at the same time while drowning in hurtful lust and foolishness.

Paul turned a man over to Satan for the destruction (Olethros) of the flesh that His spirit may be saved. His flesh was not destoryed instantly but in a long decay that the man repented later in 2cor.

Notice it's the spirit of the man Paul was concerned with, and ZERO scripture tell us anywhere a spirit can be destoryed, and Zero scripture telling us that any disentagration or consuming goes on in Sheol/Hades.

ZERO.

If it's not there, we don't add it. Why do we want to continue to show scriptures that take place on earth as God is not destroying anyone in hell, as that is where they are put after they are destroyed and consumed.
The Angels bound in chains in the lower part will tell you.

 

[Stan1953]

That's a lot of question marks for a passage (the 2 Thess one) that says eternal destruction. Are you questioning whether Paul meant eternal torture instead of eternal destruction? He didn't. He meant what he clearly said.

Well as you wrote FIRST Thess I couldn't see what the heck you were talking about, hence the question marks.
Now 2 Thess 1:9 NIV is about death, which is why it's a noun. Same Greek word and connotation that is found in 1 Tim 6:9, and same English word from a different Greek word as found in 1 Cor. 5:5, 1 Thess. 5:3.
Again I have no problem with the way the credentialed Greek scholars render these verses. They ALL deal with death of the body.

 

[MarkT]

Isaiah 1:28 But rebels and sinners will be completely destroyed,and those who desert the Lord will be consumed. NLT

Isaiah 1:28
But rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed. RSV

Apparently the NLT departs from the RSV translation for some reason. I would not use the NLT.

 

[Stan1953]

Isaiah 1:28 But rebels and sinners will be completely destroyed,and those who desert the Lord will be consumed. NLT
Isaiah 1:28
But rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed. RSV
Apparently the NLT departs from the RSV translation for some reason. I would not use the NLT.

Yeh I would not use the NLT for any serious study.

 

[agua.]

It's their worm and their fire. It doesn't say worms will eat them forever. It says their worm shall not die. Isa. 66:24 refers to the bodies of the men who rebelled against the LORD. Their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched. We can debate this, but whether it is the body or the punishment, it is never ending. Where does it say they are annihilated?

Take a look at Chessman's post it explains well about the worms and destruction/annihilation.

Chessman's post #220

 

[JLB]

Ah, so you are saying the Bible teaches unending punishing (a verb) and unending destroying (a verb). Is that right?

Then how come destruction is a noun, not a verb in 1 Thess 1:9?

How come Paul says:

Philippians 3:18-19 the enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction,

How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

C.I. leaves destruction as a noun as written and consistent with the rest of the usages (NT AND OT).

E.C.T. Changes destruction into a verb (a process of destroying) and forces one to assume Paul meant the word destruction in 1 Thess 1:9 inconsistently with his other meanings for the same word and Isaiah's word.

Isaiah 1:28 But rebels and sinners will be completely destroyed,and those who desert the Lord will be consumed. ​

I am teaching what Jesus said, -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41.46

Everlasting punishment prepared for the devil and his angels is: they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Just plain words from Jesus!

Is tormented a noun or a verb?


JLB

 

[jeff77]

There is also Revelation 14:9-11. The ones who worship the beast and his image have no rest day or night either.

 

[JLB]

The way of the transgressor is hard, and rebels and sinners are destroyed from the earth to have no more part under the sun. The body is consumed and turns to dust.

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(2Th 1:9)

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

If the Holy Spirit meant completely vanished, discentagrated, made to powder then He would have used kataluō

The Greek Adjective before the Noun tells us what is taking place. Aionios (forever, everlasting) Destruction and Everlasting being away from the glory and power of the Lord. Had they been just dissolved into poweder then no mention of being away from the power and glory of the Lord.

Part of the everlasting punishment Jesus mentioned and Dan 12 mentioned is a forever process of olethros (Destruction prolong form of an act of destroying)

1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

Here the same Greek word is used in a sense of continual drowning. Olethros (Destruction) and they get perdition. The word does not mean to disintegrate. They get destruction and perdition at the same time while drowning in hurtful lust and foolishness.

Paul turned a man over to Satan for the destruction (Olethros) of the flesh that His spirit may be saved. His flesh was not destoryed instantly but in a long decay that the man repented later in 2cor.

Notice it's the spirit of the man Paul was concerned with, and ZERO scripture tell us anywhere a spirit can be destoryed, and Zero scripture telling us that any disentagration or consuming goes on in Sheol/Hades.

ZERO.

If it's not there, we don't add it. Why do we want to continue to show scriptures that take place on earth as God is not destroying anyone in hell, as that is where they are put after they are destroyed and consumed.
The Angels bound in chains in the lower part will tell you.

Great word Brother Mike!

 

[chessman]

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(2Th 1:9)
.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Lexham English Bible (LEB) 9 who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength, ​

Eternal destruction
away from the presence of the Lord (the life giver)

Two ways to describe the same thing (the subject is the penalty).

911 was a catastrophe, a massacre and blood bath.

They pay the penalty of destruction, the penalty of being sent away from the presence of the Lord and His strength.
This event described in 2 Thess 1:9 (since it’s on the topic of the final punishment of the post-judged wicked people is consistent with Jesus’ teaching in:

Matthew 7:23 And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’ ​

Notice here their punishment is simply stated as "depart from me". That doesn't sound like a very harsh punishment at first glance (especially to a person that didn’t think Jesus was God). That is, until you recognize that The Lord is God, is the source of all life.

Genesis 2:7 when Yahweh God formed the man of dust from the ground, and he blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.​

Ecclesiastes 12:1 - 7
Advice to the Young: Life is Short and Then You Die
Remember your Creator in the days of your youth—
[… A short life happens, then death happens] 7 And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it.
​

No life giver, no life (body or ‘breath’).

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The discussion I was having was about whether the word “destruction” and whether the word is ever used in a way that doesn’t really mean destruction. MarkT thinks that “their worm does not die” is a reference to a shriveled body (flesh) of a man burning in Hell. My point was that would mean the flesh is not really destroyed.

The Greek Adjective before the Noun tells us what is taking place.

Are you sure? I totally disagree.
I am not aware that in Greek grammar adjectives fundamentally function any differently than they do in English. Adjectives modify nouns. That’s their purpose. The nouns determine the what (the subject) within the sentence structure, not the adjectives.
That’s exactly my point about 2 Thess 1:9. Some people think the adjective (eternal) is not really an adjective (modifying the noun “destruction”) and that “destruction” is a verb in the sentence structure. It’s bad grammar and exegesis of the sentence structure to do this to any verse (no matter the subject).

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Lexham English Bible (LEB) 9 who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction,

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Lexham English Bible (LEB) 9 who will pay the penalty of ______ destruction, ​

Paul could have used all kinds of adjectives to modify the penalty (destruction). He chose eternal. But he could have chosen an adjective like temporary.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Lexham English Bible (LEB) 9 who will pay the penalty of _temporary_ destruction, ​

Or he could have chosen painful:

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Lexham English Bible (LEB) 9 who will pay the penalty of _painful destruction, ​

And on and on. Adjectives do NOT tell us the what(s) in sentences. Sorry but I just don’t buy that they do.

 

[chessman]

Well as you wrote FIRST Thess I couldn't see what the heck you were talking about, hence the question marks.

Yep, my mistake. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[chessman]

Yeh I would not use the NLT for any serious study.

Again I have no problem with the way the credentialed Greek scholars render these verses.

Now, I'm confused. Were the NLT translators not credentialed Greek scholars? I don’t really know that much about that version. But I would assume they have more credentials than you or I have. I see it used fairly often. It’s not typically one I prefer and the only reason I was even quoting that verse from it was for the discussion of the various usages of the word for Destruction. It could have been a verse about anything (any subject) using the word. It just happened that the verse was about sinners. My only point at that time was the way those NLT translators tried to convey the meaning of the word by saying “completely destroyed”. As my study indicates that's the way the word is used elsewhere.

Also “destroyed together” would tend to convey the same type of thought.

 

[chessman]

Is tormented a noun or a verb?


JLB

It's a verb. So you do think there's importance in nouns versus verbs. Let me ask you:

they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

JLB

____ will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Who's the they? Fill in the blank.

Just plain words from Jesus!
JLB

Let's just stick to the plain words of Jesus about the final fate of wicked humans shall we? Why bring up a verse about "they devil and his angels"? I don't understand the relevance. When's the last time you witnessed or shared the Gospel to the Devil or one of his angels?