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How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

MarkT said:
Why would you even have to ask? What does a (Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah) philosophy have to do with the truth?
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I was only asking because that is the topic of this thread. The discussion seems to have wandered afar.

Which is the philosophy in your opinion? Eternal Conscious Torment or Conditional Immortality?

"What does a vain philosophy have to do with the truth?" Nothing. That is why I believe that there is only eternal life in Christ (Conditional Immortality) and I don't believe that the lost are tormented alive in hell forever when they die (ECT), they perish just as the Bible says (CI).
 
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How does the theory of ECT affect the gospel?

Here is how some people who have rejected the gospel because of ECT in Hell have said it:

“God Can Love Me or Send Me to Hell. But Not Both.”
"Did Jesus actually ever say, "if you don't believe in me you go to Hell"?"
"How can you worship a god condemning his kids to torture?"
“I don’t embrace a God who says that there is only one path to Heaven, only one road back to God, and that everyone who takes a different road is going straight to hell.”​

That's enough to make the point. And the point is not "Are they correct in their thinking?"
The point is "Has the threat of being burned alive forever in a place called Hell done anything at all to cause these people to turn to God?"
Obviously not.

Here is how I believe the gospel should be presented:
We all know that we are mortal, and that one day we will die.
But there was an exception, Jesus Christ. He rose from death on the third day after he was crucified and he became alive again. He defeated death and according to the Bible, he will return again and resurrect those who put their faith in him and he will give them eternal life.

So how does CI and ECT affect the gospel? CI reflects the gospel truth and is a positive message of hope and is true to scripture.
ECT doesn't reflect the gospel truth and it is a negative message and is untrue to scripture.



 
According to Gen 2:7 a soul consists of a body and the breath/spirit of life. That's a clear statement from Scripture, so whatever we claim a soul is, it must also incorporate what Gen 2:7 states or we are misunderstanding the word.
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I could say, 'the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground' OK, 'and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life' OK and man became a living being. Gen 2:7 RSV If you prefer living soul, OK. What's a living soul? The text doesn't say.
 
I was only asking because that is the topic of this thread. The discussion seems to have wandered afar.

Which is the philosophy in your opinion? Eternal Conscious Torment or Conditional Immortality?

"What does a vain philosophy have to do with the truth?" Nothing. That is why I believe that there is only eternal life in Christ (Conditional Immortality) and I don't believe that the lost are tormented alive in hell forever when they die (ECT), they perish just as the Bible says (CI).
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In my opinion it destroys the gospel; the power and the authority of God. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. You lose everything.
 
How does the theory of ECT affect the gospel?

Here is how some people who have rejected the gospel because of ECT in Hell have said it:

“God Can Love Me or Send Me to Hell. But Not Both.”
"Did Jesus actually ever say, "if you don't believe in me you go to Hell"?"
"How can you worship a god condemning his kids to torture?"
“I don’t embrace a God who says that there is only one path to Heaven, only one road back to God, and that everyone who takes a different road is going straight to hell.”

That's enough to make the point. And the point is not "Are they correct in their thinking?"
The point is "Has the threat of being burned alive forever in a place called Hell done anything at all to cause these people to turn to God?"
Obviously not.

Here is how I believe the gospel should be presented:
We all know that we are mortal, and that one day we will die.
But there was an exception, Jesus Christ. He rose from death on the third day after he was crucified and he became alive again. He defeated death and according to the Bible, he will return again and resurrect those who put their faith in him and he will give them eternal life.

So how does CI and ECT affect the gospel? CI reflects the gospel truth and is a positive message of hope and is true to scripture.
ECT doesn't reflect the gospel truth and it is a negative message and is untrue to scripture.
Click to expand...

The gospel is a two edged sword. It condemns and it saves. There's no power or spirit in your gospel. You don't mention Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. He was sent by God to fulfill the law and the prophets; to give his life as a ransom for many. You don't mention the kingdom of God or the Spirit of God. You don't mention sin or the power of the law. You don't tell people 'he who does not believe is condemned already'. John 3:18

Where does this fit in your positive gospel?

If they don't want to listen and they don't fear God, who's fault is that?
 
MarkT said:
The gospel is a two edged sword. It condemns and it saves. There's no power or spirit in your gospel. You don't mention Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. He was sent by God to fulfill the law and the prophets; to give his life as a ransom for many. You don't mention the kingdom of God or the Spirit of God. You don't mention sin or the power of the law. You don't tell people 'he who does not believe is condemned already'. John 3:18

Where does this fit in your positive gospel?

If they don't want to listen and they don't fear God, who's fault is that?
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Okay, you asked where does the law and sin fit into your positive message. I will only say what the Bible says. The wages of sin is death. And I said that before, when I said "We know that we are mortal and we know that we are going to die." Have you ever read Romans 5 and 6? Paul goes into great detail about how death entered the world because of sin.

If they don't want to listen and they don't fear God, whose fault is that? It is theirs. So what happens? They lose out on having eternal life. They perish, just as the Bible says. They are not tortured alive forever in hell because of their unbelief, because the Bible does not say that. I think that it is important that we stick to what the Bible actually says.

Yes, Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. He was sent to give his life as a ransom for many. The Kingdom of God is our kingdom, as believers, that's true. What do you want me to say about the Spirit of God? We receive the Holy Spirit when we believe. It is true that "he who does not believe in condemned already", and God's Judgment remains on them, see John 3:36, and what happens to them according to John 3:36? They do not see life. They do not receive eternal life. It doesn't say that the judgment is to go to hell to be tortured alive forever. It says that the judgment is that they will not see life. That's a perfect description of someone who has perished. John 3:16 says "whoever believes in him shall not perish but will have eternal life". This is exactly what I believe.
 
MarkT said:
In my opinion it destroys the gospel; the power and the authority of God. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. You lose everything.
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I don't see how CI destroys the gospel. Whoever believes in him will have eternal life, whoever doesn't will not have eternal life. Whoever believes in him shall not perish, whoever rejects him shall perish. See John 3:16

There is no "leaven" in CI, there is only eternal life in Christ and nowhere else.
I would say the leaven of ECT leavens that whole loaf, because the Bible never once says that bad people or unsaved people go to hell when they die where they will experience eternal conscious torment forever.
 
Okay, you asked where does the law and sin fit into your positive message. I will only say what the Bible says. The wages of sin is death. And I said that before, when I said "We know that we are mortal and we know that we are going to die." Have you ever read Romans 5 and 6? Paul goes into great detail about how death entered the world because of sin.

If they don't want to listen and they don't fear God, whose fault is that? It is theirs. So what happens? They lose out on having eternal life. They perish, just as the Bible says. They are not tortured alive forever in hell because of their unbelief, because the Bible does not say that. I think that it is important that we stick to what the Bible actually says.

Yes, Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. He was sent to give his life as a ransom for many. The Kingdom of God is our kingdom, as believers, that's true. What do you want me to say about the Spirit of God? We receive the Holy Spirit when we believe. It is true that "he who does not believe in condemned already", and God's Judgment remains on them, see John 3:36, and what happens to them according to John 3:36? They do not see life. They do not receive eternal life. It doesn't say that the judgment is to go to hell to be tortured alive forever. It says that the judgment is that they will not see life. That's a perfect description of someone who has perished. John 3:16 says "whoever believes in him shall not perish but will have eternal life". This is exactly what I believe.
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The RSV says they will enter into eternal punishment, the punishment that is meant for the devil and his angels. There they will weep and gnash their teeth. What's the difference between the first death and the second death? According to CI the wicked die and then they die again. Is that the devil's punishment? We're not talking about the law here. We're not talking about sin and death. We're talking about the opposition, the liar, the Serpent. The devil and his angels are sentenced to hell. The wicked will enter into this punishment if they are not warned.

According to CI it takes longer to die in the second death. How long does it take to die? According to CI they will be dead forever. They are already dead if they do not believe. Telling the dead they are going to die forever if they do not believe? They already believe death is forever.
 
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I don't see how CI destroys the gospel. Whoever believes in him will have eternal life, whoever doesn't will not have eternal life. Whoever believes in him shall not perish, whoever rejects him shall perish. See John 3:16

There is no "leaven" in CI, there is only eternal life in Christ and nowhere else.
I would say the leaven of ECT leavens that whole loaf, because the Bible never once says that bad people or unsaved people go to hell when they die where they will experience eternal conscious torment forever.
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I was referring to John 3:18. It's not that they won't have eternal life, it's that he who does not believe in the Son is condemned already. The Son was sent to save the world. We're here to rescue the godless and the wicked from the coming fire. You make it sound like the godless have a choice. Why don't you tell them they are condemned already? Put the fear of the LORD into them.

CI is the leaven.
 
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The good news is this - Mt. 5

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.


5 the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. 6 And blessed is he who takes no offence at me.” Mt. 11:5,6


This is what we preach. How does CI affect the gospel? The only thing I can think of is it causes arguments over the meaning of words.
 
You don't need to argue about the meaning of words in the bible. Those of us who are CI accept the regular definitions.
 
Here is how some people who have rejected the gospel because of ECT in Hell have said it:

“God Can Love Me or Send Me to Hell. But Not Both.”
"Did Jesus actually ever say, "if you don't believe in me you go to Hell"?"
"How can you worship a god condemning his kids to torture?"
“I don’t embrace a God who says that there is only one path to Heaven, only one road back to God, and that everyone who takes a different road is going straight to hell.”

That's enough to make the point. And the point is not "Are they correct in their thinking?"
The point is "Has the threat of being burned alive forever in a place called Hell done anything at all to cause these people to turn to God?"
Obviously not.
Click to expand...

Obviously the good news didn't do anything for them. And if they don't believe for whatever reason, so what? I really don't care what they believe.
 
MarkT said:
Obviously the good news didn't do anything for them. And if they don't believe for whatever reason, so what? I really don't care what they believe.
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That's understandable. On the other hand, the topic of this thread is "How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?"
Would you agree that if ECT is not a true doctrine, and the thought of ECT is keeping people away from the Gospel, then that is a problem?
If X is not a true doctrine, and the thought of X is keeping people away from the Gospel, then that is a problem.

I don't believe that the doctrine of ECT is true according to Scripture.
I've shown that people reject the Gospel because of the doctrine of ECT.

Can you understand my concern?
 
TimothyW said:
That's understandable. On the other hand, the topic of this thread is "How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?"
Would you agree that if ECT is not a true doctrine, and the thought of ECT is keeping people away from the Gospel, then that is a problem?
If X is not a true doctrine, and the thought of X is keeping people away from the Gospel, then that is a problem.

I don't believe that the doctrine of ECT is true according to Scripture.
I've shown that people reject the Gospel because of the doctrine of ECT.

Can you understand my concern?
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I think most people reject the Gospel because they don't want to give up their current lifestyle. If you were to tell them that the consequence for rejecting Jesus is simply being annihilated it would make it easier for them to want to live by their own desires and will, rather than put their faith in Christ. Most non-believers that are agnostic have some pre-conceived idea of what hell is. Telling them that their really is no consciousness in hell sounds comforting to me. If you tell an atheist there is no consciousness in hell, you have told them something similar to what they already believe, that being no life after death except the resurrection and judgment part.
 
jeff77 said:
I think most people reject the Gospel because they don't want to give up their current lifestyle. If you were to tell them that the consequence for rejecting Jesus is simply being annihilated it would make it easier for them to want to live by their own desires and will, rather than put their faith in Christ. Most non-believers that are agnostic have some pre-conceived idea of what hell is. Telling them that their really is no consciousness in hell sounds comforting to me. If you tell an atheist there is no consciousness in hell, you have told them something similar to what they already believe, that being no life after death except the resurrection and judgment part.
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Maybe. I showed the evidence that it was the doctrine of ECT that was making these people reject the Gospel. Can I see your evidence?
I don't understand how being destroyed seems comforting to you. Can you explain that a little better to me?

"except the resurrection and judgment part" that's the WHOLE part. That is what separates us from those who do not believe that there is a resurrection!

And you didn't answer my question:
If doctrine X is untrue, and doctrine X is keeping people from the gospel, Can you understand my concern about doctrine X?
 
That's understandable. On the other hand, the topic of this thread is "How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?"
Would you agree that if ECT is not a true doctrine, and the thought of ECT is keeping people away from the Gospel, then that is a problem?
If X is not a true doctrine, and the thought of X is keeping people away from the Gospel, then that is a problem.

I don't believe that the doctrine of ECT is true according to Scripture.
I've shown that people reject the Gospel because of the doctrine of ECT.

Can you understand my concern?
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Those who spurn the Lord for whatever reason will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Obviously these people believe the punishment is eternal (whether you do or not is irrelevant) and they hate God for it. They hate God. They justify themselves in their anger towards God. And it sounds like you think they are justified too.

No. I'm not concerned if it makes them angry. Their beliefs are of no concern to me.

What does concern me is this attempt to make the gospel more appealing to people. This doesn't serve the Lord. God has provided us with the RSV, the KJV and other translations. The Bible doesn't need to be translated again. There is no update. Heaven doesn't need a PR department.

Maybe when the Lord returns you can explain CI and ECT to him.
 
Can you understand my concern?
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Belief doesn't turn on CI or ECT or ABC or BBC or NBC.

Belief happens; as the Lord said. Some are attracted to the light. Some are compelled. The kingdom of heaven is like a net. The angels draw it in and they separate the good and the bad. You don't escape the net. You can't say, 'I refuse to be caught. It's against my will.' Sorry.You're caught. Now it's time to separate the good and the bad. The kingdom of heaven has never depended on man's will or his exertion. You can't add or subtract anything from the kingdom unless it is his will. There is one provision, however. You can ask God through Jesus Christ, and if it is his will, he will grant it.

Of course I am interested in the truth. I still believe the punishment is never ending. What you believe is between you and God.
 
MarkT said:
Those who spurn the Lord for whatever reason will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Obviously these people believe the punishment is eternal (whether you do or not is irrelevant) and they hate God for it. They hate God. They justify themselves in their anger towards God. And it sounds like you think they are justified too.

No. I'm not concerned if it makes them angry. Their beliefs are of no concern to me.

What does concern me is this attempt to make the gospel more appealing to people. This doesn't serve the Lord. God has provided us with the RSV, the KJV and other translations. The Bible doesn't need to be translated again. There is no update. Heaven doesn't need a PR department.

Maybe when the Lord returns you can explain CI and ECT to him.
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So if there is a doctrine that isn't true, and it hinders the gospel, that doesn't concern you at all.
 
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