How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

[agua.]

Here is another scripture for us to think about, the account of the furnace and the angel in Daniel 3:20 He commanded certain valiant warriors who were in his army to tie up Shadrach,Meshach and Abed-nego in order to cast them into the furnace of blazing fire. 21 Then these men weretied up in their trousers, their coats, their caps and their other clothes, and were cast into the midst of thefurnace of blazing fire. 22 For this reason , because the king's command was urgent and the furnace had been made extremely hot, the flame of the fire slew those men who carried up Shadrach, Meshach andAbed-nego. 23 But these three men, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, fell into the midst of the furnaceof blazing fire still tied up. 24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste ; hesaid to his high officials, "Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire ?" They replied to the king, "Certainly, O king." 25 He said, "Look ! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods !

If anything this account shows us that spirit beings can not be hurt in anyway by a hot fire.

Digging

This is interesting Digging and I remeber Butch recently talked about this. Remember the fire that Elijah called down upon the Altar when challenging the prophets of Baal ? It seems Yahweh can use some kind of fire that is all consuming which may be different than our usual Earth fire if you get my drift. Sorry I can't post the scriptures quickly I've lost my Bible software for a short time.

 

[Stan1953]

This is interesting Digging and I remeber Butch recently talked about this. Remember the fire that Elijah called down upon the Altar when challenging the prophets of Baal ? It seems Yahweh can use some kind of fire that is all consuming which may be different than our usual Earth fire if you get my drift. Sorry I can't post the scriptures quickly I've lost my Bible software for a short time.

I Kings 18 agua

 

[digging]

Hello Agua,

I understand that account in Kings still was real fire that caused a chemical reaction to break down the substances completely. The account in Revelation even adds brimstone which is a very strong indicator that God is using physical phenomena to illustrate how spiritual beings can also be destroyed the same way things are destroyed on earth with powerful fires. Take a nuclear fire wall nothing remains, it is gone forever and ever. The fire does not remain but the total destruction does.

I agree that a wicked spirit being can also be destroyed but I'm certain they are not burned with brimstone, so clearly that is symbolic and thus other parts of the vs can be as well.

Digging

 

[digging]

So you don't believe that there is a hell with fire prepared for the devil and his angels and those whom Jesus cursed.

It all just symbolic?


JLB

I believe God is using powerful physical forces of destruction as an illustration to communicate to us how he will completely destroy all the wicked both spirits and human which there will be no restoration from ever. No resurrection, no returning.

It is a real event but the imaging is what is symbolic.

Digging

 

[chessman]

Let's not make the mistake others make who do their best to remove the consequences of ignoring Jesus, the consequences of not being born again as a new type of creature, and ignore the consequences of not becoming a son of God through the redemptive Work of Christ.

I agree with the point. Annihilationism certainly does not ignore the consequences of not BECOMING a son of God through the Work of Christ. In fact, the consequences is in the very name of the ‘ism’ (annihilation). It would be hard to ignore this. So certainly you must be refereeing to some other group of people and not the annihilationist. As an accusation like that against an annihilationist is obviously a false accusation.
A traditionalist can also point to their name as the consequence, I suppose. “tradition”.
So let’s say the Traditionalist view has a man on 1st base with no outs already, just based on the fact that ever since probably around 300-400 A.D. (but NOT before then) most of the recorded theologians and church doctrines do in fact clearly teach ECT (not annihilation). I’ll grant you that man on 1st base already with zero outs.

But again, I agree strongly with NOT ignoring any Scripture(s). So I’m examining them and re-evaluating that traditional view. I did so by pointing out that “everlasting fire” is only a partial way to describe God’s Wrath/anger Biblically speaking. I was striking the first batter out (the lead-off man)

If "everlasting fire” does NOT mean "everlasting fuel” and thus “everlasting torment” type argument. It’s an argument going nowhere, Biblically speaking.

That was the point of my post. And to ignore the fact that God’s eternal fire is also said to be a consuming fire and is also said to be a destructive fire is to ignore the multitude of Scriptures that teach God’s Wrath, God’s Anger, God’s fire is a consuming fire.

I assume you somewhat agree with this point since you are basically saying; Yes, but that destructive fire does not apply to their spirits in Hell? I would say, just generally, okay maybe. However, do you have any Scriptures that teach this or is it grounded on the assumption that spirits cannot be destroyed in Hades/Sheol (or by God’s consuming fire anywhere else) no matter what/where they are?

So, I’m really looking for that Scripture(s) that would teach that God cannot literally destroy both body AND soul in Hell (or at any other place/time) if He so chooses to destroy what He created spiritually.

Matt 10:28, to me, clearly indicates the body (physical) can be killed by man but only God can destroy both the body (physical) and the soul (non-physical). So I already have that Scripture on my team. You're up to bat with one out already.

Oh, and furthermore He CAN do this in Hell, which only leaves on place for the wicked's spirit's to remain. Sheol/Hades.


So to your points of all these Scriptures that I mentioned:

… Where at though?
(Deu 4:24-26)
It's on land, on earth, before a person dies.

Let’s call that a sacrifice- bunt with one out and a man on first. You moved the man to 2nd, but really haven’t accomplished all that much here. Also, you’ve only got one out left. You really must score with the one man you have on 2nd already (that is, it’s an uphill battle because there’s really nowhere else to turn. It must be (for you to score) that it’s man’s “spirit” that is tormented forever in someplace called Sheol/Hades since it must be a spirit in a place other than on Earth (the land) or even Hell (Matt 10:28).
However, You are right with that verse (you moved a man from 1st to 2nd base) by pointing out that Deut 4:24-26 does indeed imply God’s consuming Fire is their destruction, but that destruction is clearly meant to be “on the land” (not in Sheol/Hades).
It was not my intention, however, to us Deut 4:24-26 to teach the final fate of the wicked. Thus, you really haven’t scored a run just yet. I was merely pointing out that God’s Wrath/Anger is Biblically speaking also a “consuming fire” just as much as it is an “eternal fire”. So much so that Moses says “God is a consuming fire”.
So you’ve advanced the man to 2nd but in the process acquired another out. Now there’s two outs and you have a man on 2nd base. But you need to score that winning run as all other options are quickly running out.

.
Case 2:
(Deu 9:3) God is a consuming fire, who will destroy the children of Anak before the face of Israel in Sheol???

Okay. Again, I was merely posting Scriptures (several) toward my one point (not making an overall argument). God is a consuming fire. We both agree. I think God is a consuming fire everywhere on “the land” in “the sea” and in Sheol/Hades and in Hell and in the Lake of Fire (not just on the land). Everywhere He's final Wrath/Anger is evidenced. You seem to think God is NOT a consuming fire in Sheol (the grave), however. Maybe???? Looking for the evidence though.

Ball one!

.
Case 3:
(Heb 12:26-29)
Earth and Heaven the same place as Hades................? Some want it to be.

No, they are not necessarily the same place. And I don’t want them to be. Strike one.

.
Case 4:
(Isa 33:11-14)
Sheol mentioned anywhere here? Or a Earthly place called Zion?
Why Add something to the Word that is not there............ context!!!
Takes place in sheol? Or does it say EARTH?

I didn’t add a stich to the words to those in Is 33. Strike two! Also, will you answer Isaiah’s questions?
“Who of us can live with devouring fire?
Who of us can live with everlasting consuming hearths?”

.
Case 5:
(Isa 66:13-16)
On earth, or Hades? (Sheol)

On Earth. I get it. I wasn’t using that passage for anything other than showing that God’s eternal fire is a description of destruction (on Earth, in Heaven and anywhere else God so chooses. Ball two.

.
Case 5:
(Isa 66:21-22)

Will you address the fact that this passage (though its setting seems to be on Earth (the old one, not the new one), regardless it says that Yahweh will curse his enemies and they shall “come to an end”, declares Yahweh.
Let me ask you. Where/when do Yahweh’s enemies come to an end if their spirit’s live on in Sheol? You need to build a case for your argument that it’s their “spirits” that live on in Sheol.
Have you??? Since that’s what you are teaching.

.
Case 6:
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
(Zec 12:1)

Not quite sure how this supports your case. If it is God that formeth (and sustaineth) the spirit of man within him (and it is, we all agree) then who in the heck sustains that spirit once the goats are told to depart from Him and are cast into His fire of destruction?

.
ZERO Scripture, not one....... NADA............ denotes any possibility that a spirit can be destroyed............ NONE. We don't make things up, if it's never mentioned by God in His word...... It's dangerous. We ought to treat teaching others as a very serious matter and stick to scripture only.

ZERO Scripture, not one....... NADA............ denotes any possibility that a spirit can NOTbe destroyed............ NONE.
Though we have one that is NOT on earth but is post-judgment of the wicked that says:

8 But as for the cowards and unbelievers and detestable persons and murderers and sexually immoral people and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.​

And we have:“Who of us can live with devouring fire?

Who of us can live with everlasting consuming hearths?”
​

I don't make things up, if it's never mentioned by God in His word...... It's dangerous. I ought to treat teaching others as a very serious matter and stick to scripture only.

I, however, am not perfect in my studies of Scriptures. I'm still learning and re-learning some things.

 

[Stan1953]

ZERO Scripture, not one....... NADA............ denotes any possibility that a spirit can NOT be destroyed............ NONE.
Though we have one that is NOT on earth but is post-judgment of the wicked that says:
8 But as for the cowards and unbelievers and detestable persons and murderers and sexually immoral people and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.
And we have:“Who of us can live with devouring fire?
Who of us can live with everlasting consuming hearths?”

and as indicated previously on this thread, that is symbolic language to show a meta-physical result that can't be actually seen.
Spirits are not destroyed by any kind of physical fire. It is a spiritual domain and as a result of what will happen in Rev 21:1-2, it and it's inhabitants will never have access to the new earth, but they will exist in that spiritual realm forever.

 

[JLB]

This is interesting Digging and I remeber Butch recently talked about this. Remember the fire that Elijah called down upon the Altar when challenging the prophets of Baal ? It seems Yahweh can use some kind of fire that is all consuming which may be different than our usual Earth fire if you get my drift. Sorry I can't post the scriptures quickly I've lost my Bible software for a short time.

It's called Lightning

 

[Stan1953]

It's called Lightning

 

[Doulos Iesou]

It's called Lightning

Where do you get that idea?

Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. 1 Kings 18:38 (ESV)

Lightning is not fire. This was the "fire of the LORD," which the same fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah was said to be in Genesis 19:24, "from the LORD." Elijah even says later in this passage:

“If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty." 2 Kings 1:12 (ESV)

What they are referencing is not Lightning, but the consuming fire that is our God.

"for our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29 (ESV)

The consuming fire that will consume his adversaries.

"but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries." Hebrews 10:27 (ESV)

The testimony of Scripture as to the nature of "eternal fire" or as it is more commonly known, "the fire of God," or the "fire of the LORD," is very consistent. It consumes utterly.

 

[Stan1953]

The Greek word πῦρ (pŷr) is a primary word; and connotes «fire» (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire. Strongs #4442

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The Greek word πῦρ (pŷr) is a primary word; and connotes «fire» (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire. Strongs #4442

Strongs isn't very good, and I just looked through every usage of the Greek word in the NT and none of them meant "lightning," so I have no idea where that comes from. Also the Hebrew word mentioned in 1 Kings 18 is also only translated as denoting fire.

Do you have some kind of exegetical basis for lightning being a possible translation?

 

[Stan1953]

Strongs isn't very good, and I just looked through every usage of the Greek word in the NT and none of them meant "lightning," so I have no idea where that comes from. Also the Hebrew word mentioned in 1 Kings 18 is also only translated as denoting fire.
Do you have some kind of exegetical basis for lightning being a possible translation?

Good enough for me and others who don't have credentials in it. Seems you feel that any word always has the same connotation, which would not be correct.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Good enough for me and others who don't have credentials in it. Seems you feel that any word always has the same connotation, which would not be correct.

Can you provide one example in the Bible where this word denotes lightning. You don't have to have credentials to do this.

No where in the whole NT is it translated lightning, which is good enough for me and others who don't have credentials in it...

I can cite more reputable resources that contradict Strongs, and are actually Lexicons, rather than a concordance. However, appealing to an authority is not a valid argument in and of itself, if that's what you want to believe then that's fine, but don't expect it to be compelling.

How about that example?

 

[reba]

The topic is not lighting ....
How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

 

[TimothyW]

That is clear TW. Wrong but clear.
I've provided you with my view of the scripture and you won't accept it. That Jesus tells us in the Gospels and His last Revelation that the lake of fire will exist forever should sway your but sadly it does not so there is nothing more I can say to you as you mind is made up. All I can leave you with is that i believe you have been properly instructed. Edited

Pink edits by reba

No I am not SDA. I am a Bible Believing Christian, and I believe that the wages of sin is death and not Eternal Conscious Torment.
Edited

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The topic is not lighting ....
How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

The meaning of the Greek word Pyr is important to the formation of the doctrine, people attempt to change it's meaning to avoid the implications.

 

[Stan1953]

The meaning of the Greek word Pyr is important to the formation of the doctrine, people attempt to change it's meaning to avoid the implications.

Not at all. Fire in the verses used to support CI, is symbolic in nature, which is why most people don't accept the dogma.

 

[DRS81]

Hebrews 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Psalm 50:3 Our God comes; he does not keep silence; before him is a devouring fire, around him a mighty tempest.

The definition of consume Hebrews 10:27 is to destroy, absorb, devour. If you devour your dinner there is nothing left. If you absorb all the water in the sponge there is no water left in the sponge. If you destroy an anthill then it is no longer an anthill. It is simply crushed sand on the ground. When you destroy, absorb, devour something you are taking away its essence.

 

[chessman]

It is a spiritual domain and as a result of what will happen in Rev 21:1-2, it and it's inhabitants will never have access to the new earth, but they will exist in that spiritual realm forever.

I'm confused by your reference to Rev 21 and that "it" is the spiritual realm. What is "it"? Sheol/Hades?

I just reread Rev 21. There's not one mention of a spiritual realm in it. Where did you get that idea from Rev 21?

Revelation 21:1-2 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. ​

Where is a spiritual realm being visioned there for the wicked? It sounds like a new creation of the physical to me.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, ​

I'm looking forward to dwelling with God physically.

Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. ​

But for those that do not overcome, they are not sons. What happens to them after their judgment? What do they inherit? Read on:

Revelation 21:8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” ​

So where does this idea of the wicked's spirit surviving God's consuming fire and living eternally come from? What are you saying; that the lake that burns with fire is spiritual, not physical? Where did you get that idea?

2 Peter 3:5-6 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. ​

Here we have physical water literally destroying physical people [Noah's flood]. But read on:

2 Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.​

Pick up this story in Rev 21:8. ...
their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

​

I reject your idea that the lake of fire is spiritual because Noah's flood was not spiritual. Not to mention that Rev 21 gives no indication that the LoF is spiritual. Nor have you given any Scripture that indicates the LoF is spiritual.

John 10:26-28 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
​

Who gives them (the wicked) eternal [spiritual] life and where at? It ain't in the LoF. Nor is it Hades/Sheol.

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. ​

Remember, God is a consuming fire! There's not one stitch of indication that by saying "This is the second death, the lake of fire" it somehow implies non-spiritual death. It's a notion that spirits cannot die that tries to avoid what Rev 21 implies.

Why does Jesus say the sheep will never perish in John 10 knowing full well they do physically perish (i.e. die or are killed by man like Matt 10:28 warns)? He knows their spirits will not perish, that's why. (Man cannot kill a sheep's spirit/soul. But God's fire can!

Therefore, He must mean there is no spiritually perishing for His sheep,

But what does that imply of the goats physically and spiritually?

Spiritual eternal life in Hades or the LoF? I think not.

​

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Not at all. Fire in the verses used to support CI, is symbolic in nature, which is why most people don't accept the dogma.

Was the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah symbolic? Because they're a direct example of those undergoing the punishment of Eternal fire. Doesn't seem symbolic to me.