How exactly is Divorce without cause and remarriage NOT ADULTERY?

[for_his_glory]

I’m not condemning you or the choice you made. I agree you made the Biblical choice (if it wasn’t God who joined you two) and am trying to show you why.

If the Lord did not join you with your first husband (but rather you/he and the State did without God’s sanction) then there’s no reason for you not to unjoin with him. And if he was an unbeliever at heart, I know the Lord did NOT join you with an unbeliever. I don’t know if he was an unbeliever or not. Sounds like it to me, though.


Do you believe he really was in Christ, yet hid alcoholism, drug abuse and spousal abuse from you until after your marriage?


Drug and alcohol abuse causes intoxication, not physical abuse.


An indication he wasn’t a believer.

“When a man takes a wife and he marries her and then she does not please him, because he found something objectionable and writes her a letter of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her away from his house, and she goes from his house, and she goes out and becomes a wife for another man, and then the second man dislikes her and he writes her a letter of divorce and places it into her hand and sends her from his house, or if the second man dies who took her to himself as a wife, her first husband who sent her away is not allowed to take her again to become a wife to him after she has been defiled, for that is a detestable thing before Yahweh, and so you shall not mislead into sin the land that Yahweh your God is giving to you as an inheritance.​

Deuteronomy 24:1-4 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Deuteronomy 24:1-4&version=LEB

The above law is a prohibition concerning what the first husband (a Jew) can/cannot do. Not what the wife of a Jew or atheist can/cannot do. And it is entirely consistent with all other Laws of God concerning His people and their marriage/divorce. Including the fact that a woman is defiled/adulterous by joining herself with anyone other than the man God joins her with either the first or second. Which is why I first asked you if God joined you and your first husband. If He did join you two (which I see as hard to believe simply based on his character and lack of love), then you will not find Biblical support for marriage to another man while that one still lives. Simple as that. On the otherhand, if He did not join you to your first husband, then there is every Biblical reason to have left.

You said yes, He joined you two, but the reason you gave for saying yes is unbiblical. Even by the very passage you tagged to your answer (as if the passage said all marriages are sanctioned by God).

You answered:



But if you actually go and read the passage, it no more says “God sanctions all marriages according to what marriage is in Gen 2” than it says “God sanctions all divorce”.

Here’s the actual passage:

Then Yahweh God said, “ it is not good that the man is alone. I will make for him a helper as his counterpart.” And out of the ground Yahweh God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and he brought each to the man to see what he would call it. And whatever the man called that living creature was its name. And the man gave names to every domesticated animal and to the birds of heaven and to all the wild animals. But for the man there was not found a helper as his counterpart. And Yahweh God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man. While he slept, he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh where it had been. And Yahweh God fashioned the rib which he had taken from the man into a woman and brought her to the man. And the man said, “ She is now bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh; she shall be called ‘Woman,’ for she was taken from man.” Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall cling to his wife, and they shall be as one flesh. And the man and his wife, both of them, were naked, and they were not ashamed.​

Genesis 2:18-25 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:18-25&version=LEB

Notice:
1. It does NOT say God sanctions all marriages in accordance with this passage. It was not good for THIS man to be alone. Paul, on the otherhand, wasn’t brought a female helper/wife because it was good for him not to have a wife.
2. It is God doing the forming of this man’s helper/counterpart (not the man or the woman doing to forming of the marriage). Wife abusers are NOT couterparts to their wives. Nor are they clinging to the woman by abusing the woman (or by abusing drugs or alcohol).
3. God brought the woman to the man. Which is essentially what I asked you to begin with.

God doesn’t bring Godly women to ‘marry’ unGodly men. Period. In this passage or any other. That’s my point.

Maybe sanctioned wasn't the right word to use, but God will allow us the freedom to pick out our mate and when I did I was unaware of his secret life that was hid from me until we said our vows before God , or at least the vows I spoke were before God.

Drug and alcohol abuse does alter the mind of a person as under the influence it causes one to do things they would normally not do as they allow the door to be opened for Satan to walk in. Adultery on his part was a big problem, but the bigger problem that caused me to leave was the physical abuse. After I left I was not seeking to ever get married again, but God had other plans in that area.

 

[GodsGrace]

Either it's all inspired or we can't know if any of it is. There is nothing greater regarding Scripture than if it is all inspired, so I don't understand what you mean by most of this post.

Hi Free,
Not getting alerts for this thread...
Sorry for delay.
Paul studied for 3 years before putting his thoughts together.
I'm not saying his thoughts were not inspired. He did speak to the other Apostles, as much as possible,,, El Al didn't exist back then.

I like to say that God did not sit at a typewriter and type out the New Testament. Some persons hang on to every word as if God Himself wrote it. The bible is INSPIRED.
I would rather hear what an Apostle or Jesus said about marriage and divorce, MORE than what Paul said about it.

If YOU had a statement about something, I'd rather hear it from YOU, than from your friend to whom you told it. That's all I mean. We know God through the bible or we would not know Him at all.

 

[GodsGrace]

True, but statistically about half are. I have another question related to something I think you posted earlier. Can a non-believer be married in the presence of God and therefore is such a marriage a binding marriage in the eyes of God just as it is between believers? I'm not asking for opinion here. I'm seeking Scriptural support.

Hi WIP,

If someone doesn't believe in God, how can they believe in His laws?
But the believer who is getting married is still bound to that marriage.
It is still a legally spiritual marriage in God's eyes. It's still a covenant.
Jesus allowed only ONE exception. And for a believer, yes, he has made a vow to the non-believer and it is valid.

This is what I was referring to in my post to Free .

If Jesus says that only in cases of unfaithfulness can one get remarried,
then we have to assume that Paul also believes this.
Paul says that an unbeliever must be let go of if he wishes to leave a wife.
1 Corinthians 7:15
But Paul does NOT speak to remarriage.

You will find if you speak to a pastor or priest, this is a most complicated subject.

 

[reba]

The justification i read here is depressing

 

[billybalke]

The justification i read here is depressing

Yes indeed it is depressing. While my heart breaks to hear of the sad plights of the many who have had heartbreaking marriages and divorces, it is, none the less, important that we understand God's law on divorce and remarriage. So often our emotions, and feelings and wants are allowed to get in the way of what God's word teaches.

Our salvation is at stake if we are mixed up in unlawful marriages. God's law on divorce and remarriage is as much a part of God's law to be obeyed as any other part is. I only wish I could capitalize some words for emphasis!

Matt.5:32 (and other passages of like import) are plain. Its our emotions which often interfere with our understanding and complying. If you ever want to know whether you may scripturally remarry while your first mate lives just ask yourself this question---"Did I put away my first mate because he or she was guilty of fornication?" --- Or, if you are considering marrying a divorced person , you must determine whether or not he or she put away their first mate because of fornication. If not, you had better find yourself another solution to your problem, because this is the only reason given by Christ that would make such a second marriage acceptable to God, not our emotions.

To be deep in scripture is to cease being Catholic, Protestant (denominational), Jew and Calvinist
Rom.16:16
God bless

 

[Papa Zoom]

Matthew 19:6 (ESV)
6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
It seems clear that divorce is not in God's plans for us humans.

From gotquestions.org

The Bible, in Ephesians 5, says a successful biblical marriage involves both the husband and the wife fulfilling certain roles: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior” (Ephesians 5:22–23). “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her” (Ephesians 5:25). “In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church” (Ephesians 5:28–29). “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh” (Ephesians 5:31).

This pretty much outlines the biblical plan for marriage. So, outside of this model, we are "out of compliance" which means we're sinning. Meaning falling short of God's intended function for us in the context of marriage. All arguments to the contrary are excuses. I'm not saying there aren't reasons, legitimate one, for people divorcing (abuse being one). I'm saying this is outside of God's plan and it's outside of our created function. And it's sin. It's not consistent with God's word. Therefore sinful. Which is why we need grace.

Interested in what John Piper has to say on the topic?
https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/staying-married-is-not-about-staying-in-love-part-1
https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/staying-married-is-not-about-staying-in-love-part-2
It's in video and text.

Then there's Malachi 2:10-16 I think it's clear, God hates divorce. So don't do it and don't downplay it.

But

That's about marriage and the importance of marriage. The question for me becomes: What do we do when people divorce? (forget for the moment the why - let's just think of the act of divorce)

When someone is divorced, they are divorced. Speaking of staying married at that point, is moot. Um, too late. They are divorced. And years later, they will be remarried. Now what? This is a secondary question. For me, it's to recognize that divorce is not God's plan for us. It falls short of HIS plan. Even if done for right reasons (infidelity, chronic abuse) it's still outside God's plans. It falls short. It misses the mark. That's sin. Knowing that, where does one go from there?

 

[artful horizon]

God has given explicit instructions on an adulterous divorce that it is allowed and the other can marry again, but yet scripture is silent on physical abuse as it is on many different things, but it doesn't mean God is silent when one goes to Him for answers.

We're not to be married, yoked, with unbelievers either. Divorce is remedy for that as we know.
Those who abuse their wife are an unbeliever. They could have stood before the altar and taken vows before God, claimed they were a Christian and all that. But as soon as that spouse starts to abuse his wife, he's a liar.
That kind of faker is condemned in scripture and they're to be avoided. Does that advice stop because the offender is married? No.
"Having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people." 2 Timothy 3.

I knew a man that was vice pastor of a Baptist church. He was also principle of the churche school. He had a bunch of kids with his wife. She always looked tired and sad. The kids were brats. No real discipline at home. But boy watch that man work in the field of corporal punishment at the school.
He was also a pervert. No one wanted to see this. They just thought he was into discipline as per the scripture of spare the rod spoil the child.
That pastor, Phil, had the appearance of godliness. But he had no comprehension of the actual presence of God to transform a life. Because he was a sadist.

God doesn't wish us to be married in a life long covenant with our life at risk of being lived long due to a vicious violent husband.
The Bible has scriptures that instruct how to care for a wife. It's the males perspective in those scriptures because we have to take context into consideration. Centuries later times have changed. A woman is not the property of her husband. Though scripture said she was.
These aren't soul risk edicts that will send the Christian wife to Hell if she affirms her right to be self sufficient and work for the family unit's integrity, security, and safety.
If someone wants to play the God's law card, shouldn't they play the whole deck? Like Leviticus 19:19. Deuteronomy 22:-29.
Exodus 21:20-21 .

1 Corinthians 16
And verse 14, “Do everything in love."
A man that beats his wife hates his life.

Malachi 2
Verse 16, “For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the Lord, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the Lord of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless.”

Are you to divorce the man you're not to be with because God knows the man God sends to the woman who is alive in Christ is not a man that abuses the vessel that contains his God's Holy Spirit. But a man that does that shows God's Holy Spirit is not in him. And that is an unbeliever.
1 Corinthians 7
And verse 15, But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.
2 Corinthians 6
And verse14 ,
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

For, you have the husband God intended. You'd have never known him had you remained enslaved to a violent man. You're so lucky because there are many a woman married to the wrong one. And how will they know the right man God intends, if they obstinately follow their mind, even when scripture permits their freedom? Because as a Christian woman in such a situation they'd never look at that right man due to their fidelity to the wrong one.

Praying God continues to bless your marriage and bring you many more years of happiness.

 

[for_his_glory]

We're not to be married, yoked, with unbelievers either. Divorce is remedy for that as we know.
Those who abuse their wife are an unbeliever. They could have stood before the altar and taken vows before God, claimed they were a Christian and all that. But as soon as that spouse starts to abuse his wife, he's a liar.
That kind of faker is condemned in scripture and they're to be avoided. Does that advice stop because the offender is married? No.
"Having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people." 2 Timothy 3.

I knew a man that was vice pastor of a Baptist church. He was also principle of the churche school. He had a bunch of kids with his wife. She always looked tired and sad. The kids were brats. No real discipline at home. But boy watch that man work in the field of corporal punishment at the school.
He was also a pervert. No one wanted to see this. They just thought he was into discipline as per the scripture of spare the rod spoil the child.
That pastor, Phil, had the appearance of godliness. But he had no comprehension of the actual presence of God to transform a life. Because he was a sadist.

God doesn't wish us to be married in a life long covenant with our life at risk of being lived long due to a vicious violent husband.
The Bible has scriptures that instruct how to care for a wife. It's the males perspective in those scriptures because we have to take context into consideration. Centuries later times have changed. A woman is not the property of her husband. Though scripture said she was.
These aren't soul risk edicts that will send the Christian wife to Hell if she affirms her right to be self sufficient and work for the family unit's integrity, security, and safety.
If someone wants to play the God's law card, shouldn't they play the whole deck? Like Leviticus 19:19. Deuteronomy 22:-29.
Exodus 21:20-21 .

1 Corinthians 16
And verse 14, “Do everything in love."
A man that beats his wife hates his life.

Malachi 2
Verse 16, “For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the Lord, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the Lord of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless.”

Are you to divorce the man you're not to be with because God knows the man God sends to the woman who is alive in Christ is not a man that abuses the vessel that contains his God's Holy Spirit. But a man that does that shows God's Holy Spirit is not in him. And that is an unbeliever.
1 Corinthians 7
And verse 15, But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.
2 Corinthians 6
And verse14 ,
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

For, you have the husband God intended. You'd have never known him had you remained enslaved to a violent man. You're so lucky because there are many a woman married to the wrong one. And how will they know the right man God intends, if they obstinately follow their mind, even when scripture permits their freedom? Because as a Christian woman in such a situation they'd never look at that right man due to their fidelity to the wrong one.

Praying God continues to bless your marriage and bring you many more years of happiness.

Jan 3 will make it 20 years we have been married and my husband is still my gift from God as much as the day we wed. Christ is our center and God continues to bless us everyday so I would say my last divorce was alright with God or I would not have favor with Him.

 

[artful horizon]

Jan 3 will make it 20 years we have been married and my husband is still my gift from God as much as the day we wed. Christ is our center and God continues to bless us everyday so I would say my last divorce was alright with God or I would not have favor with Him.

Absolutely perfect personal testimony!

July 15th I'll be with my first husband for 30 years.

 

[for_his_glory]

Absolutely perfect personal testimony!

July 15th I'll be with my first husband for 30 years.

Congrats.
I will not say it is a perfect marriage all the for what marriage is, but at least we love each other first and foremost and when issues come up it is Christ that keeps us centered in Him.

 

[artful horizon]

Congrats.
I will not say it is a perfect marriage all the for what marriage is, but at least we love each other first and foremost and when issues come up it is Christ that keeps us centered in Him.

My marriage isn't perfect either.
I tease when we get into arguments. Husbands! Can't live with 'em, can't Duck tape them to the ceiling fan and turn it on high! Well, you can do that but the neighbors hear the screams and call the cops, and that's really hard to explain.

 

[for_his_glory]

artful horizon that is to funny. Actually I have a friend of mine whose son was actually lifted up and duct tape to the wall by his friends and she got a picture of it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Matthew 19:6 (ESV)
6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
It seems clear that divorce is not in God's plans for us humans.

From gotquestions.org


This pretty much outlines the biblical plan for marriage. So, outside of this model, we are "out of compliance" which means we're sinning. Meaning falling short of God's intended function for us in the context of marriage. All arguments to the contrary are excuses. I'm not saying there aren't reasons, legitimate one, for people divorcing (abuse being one). I'm saying this is outside of God's plan and it's outside of our created function. And it's sin. It's not consistent with God's word. Therefore sinful. Which is why we need grace.

Interested in what John Piper has to say on the topic?
https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/staying-married-is-not-about-staying-in-love-part-1
https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/staying-married-is-not-about-staying-in-love-part-2
It's in video and text.

Then there's Malachi 2:10-16 I think it's clear, God hates divorce. So don't do it and don't downplay it.

But

That's about marriage and the importance of marriage. The question for me becomes: What do we do when people divorce? (forget for the moment the why - let's just think of the act of divorce)

When someone is divorced, they are divorced. Speaking of staying married at that point, is moot. Um, too late. They are divorced. And years later, they will be remarried. Now what? This is a secondary question. For me, it's to recognize that divorce is not God's plan for us. It falls short of HIS plan. Even if done for right reasons (infidelity, chronic abuse) it's still outside God's plans. It falls short. It misses the mark. That's sin. Knowing that, where does one go from there?

I have the same dilemma you do.
Telling someone that they cannot remarry because God does not recognize divorce is the same as telling a homosexual person he/she must remain alone all their lives.

Tough subject PZ.
I have a friend who was divorced many years ago.
As you know I come from the RCC. She was allowed to go to Mass, but she could not receive communion because she was remarried to someone.

The fact that she could not receive communion should have been a signal to her that she was committing grave sin. But it wasn't. She was happy to be able to attend Mass.

So do we sin in God's eyes no matter what...
Or does He hold us responsible ONLY for what we KNOW?

I believe it has to be the second.
Thoughts?

P.S. I didn't listen to John Piper.
I don't even know who he is. If I was going to ask advice to anyone it would be a priest I know. He's the holiest person I know. Really.

 

[Free]

Hi Free,
Not getting alerts for this thread...
Sorry for delay.
Paul studied for 3 years before putting his thoughts together.
I'm not saying his thoughts were not inspired. He did speak to the other Apostles, as much as possible,,, El Al didn't exist back then.

I like to say that God did not sit at a typewriter and type out the New Testament. Some persons hang on to every word as if God Himself wrote it. The bible is INSPIRED.
I would rather hear what an Apostle or Jesus said about marriage and divorce, MORE than what Paul said about it.

If YOU had a statement about something, I'd rather hear it from YOU, than from your friend to whom you told it. That's all I mean. We know God through the bible or we would not know Him at all.

Paul was an apostle but whether it came from Paul or another apostle or Jesus is irrelevant. My point is that since all of Scripture is inspired, it all essentially comes from Jesus.

 

[stovebolts]

Yes indeed it is depressing. While my heart breaks to hear of the sad plights of the many who have had heartbreaking marriages and divorces, it is, none the less, important that we understand God's law on divorce and remarriage. So often our emotions, and feelings and wants are allowed to get in the way of what God's word teaches.

Our salvation is at stake if we are mixed up in unlawful marriages. God's law on divorce and remarriage is as much a part of God's law to be obeyed as any other part is. I only wish I could capitalize some words for emphasis!

Matt.5:32 (and other passages of like import) are plain. Its our emotions which often interfere with our understanding and complying. If you ever want to know whether you may scripturally remarry while your first mate lives just ask yourself this question---"Did I put away my first mate because he or she was guilty of fornication?" --- Or, if you are considering marrying a divorced person , you must determine whether or not he or she put away their first mate because of fornication. If not, you had better find yourself another solution to your problem, because this is the only reason given by Christ that would make such a second marriage acceptable to God, not our emotions.

To be deep in scripture is to cease being Catholic, Protestant (denominational), Jew and Calvinist
Rom.16:16
God bless

This caught my eye...
Our salvation is at stake if we are mixed up in unlawful marriages. God's law on divorce and remarriage is as much a part of God's law to be obeyed as any other part is. I only wish I could capitalize some words for emphasis!
Spoken like a true Church of Christ disciple. I actually know of couples in the Church of Christ who sleep in different beds because their marriage is "Adultry" according to CofC doctrines.

There is only one sin that I am aware of that is unpardonable... and it isn't divorce.

 

[stovebolts]

I
So do we sin in God's eyes no matter what...
Or does He hold us responsible ONLY for what we KNOW?

I believe it has to be the second.
Thoughts?

I know this was directed at PZ, but the way I understand scripture, there are sins committed in ignorance, and sins committed willfully. The later will be judged more harshly.

1 Timothy 1:12-15 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has enabled me, that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and insolent: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1 Timothy 1:19-20 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made it shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

 

[WIP]

I’m not condemning you or the choice you made. I agree you made the Biblical choice (if it wasn’t God who joined you two) and am trying to show you why.

If the Lord did not join you with your first husband (but rather you/he and the State did without God’s sanction) then there’s no reason for you not to unjoin with him. And if he was an unbeliever at heart, I know the Lord did NOT join you with an unbeliever. I don’t know if he was an unbeliever or not. Sounds like it to me, though.

I struggle with this because how do we know for sure whether God joined us or not? I can't help but wonder if we use this as an excuse or justification for our own sins. I fear we convince ourselves that based on our current state of happiness or contentment God must not have been involved the first time.

 

[WIP]

An indication he wasn’t a believer.

How does his refusing to seek counseling indicate that he was not a believer?

 

[stovebolts]

I struggle with this because how do we know for sure whether God joined us or not? I can't help but wonder if we use this as an excuse or justification for our own sins. I fear we convince ourselves that based on our current state of happiness or contentment God must not have been involved the first time.

1 Corinthians 7:12-15 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother has a wife that believes not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman who has a husband that believes not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God has called us to peace.

 

[chessman]

I struggle with this because how do we know for sure whether God joined us or not?

Answered prayer.
It’s vitally important to the decision on who to marry (or not) that it be a tri-lateral agreement (both spouses plus God).

Like each personal salvation experience (not all have the same details), Not every pre-marriage partner confirmation experience need be the same. I have had only three times in my life that I’ve ‘heard’ God speak to me directly. One was His answer to my prayer as to whether to marry my wife.

God joins, Godly marriages.

I fear we convince ourselves that based on our current state of happiness or contentment God must not have been involved the first time.

Mee too!