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How free is our will?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dave Slayer
  • Start date Start date
Stop, drop, turn and listen.

Maybe you tinkink you at peace? This is nursery, there are babies here and they are at suck.
In come tinkink so clump clomp and he wake baby? Disturb nursing momma?

Do you know where your foot doth fall?

Thanks for the moment to listen to the little bird. Maybe this word not for today? Tuck it away for later, yes? Having sung her song, the birdie you dismiss has flown away.

~Sparrow

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
"Let the lips of another praise you."
 
Benoni said:
Wrong... We have already gone over the word freewill and yes carnal man has a freewill to sin; that is the way God created us;
WHEN God DRAWS THEN man has the CHOICE offered to him to either repent or reject.
Regardless of how many times we repeat this the answer will remain the same.
READERS SEE >>> Scriptural support provided by FoC:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475968


God caused the fall no matter how many times your reject Romans 8:20 and Ps 90: 1-3.
Sorry but God DIDNT.

I'll ask you AGAIN...
DOES GOD 'ORDAIN' IT WHEN A MAN RAPES A CHILD ????

YOU claim God caused the fall. THAT means God ordains mans sin. THUS you HAVE to say that God ordains it when a man rapes a child....so yes or no ?

Once God draws you this is where you are wrong; the word draw means to drag or force this is proven by the eight verses in the scriptures that show how the word is used plus the lanuages shows no hint of choice or freewill as you try so hard to spin into this verse to change it meaning. This is spin which you cannot back up with anything but your opinion. "No one can come" "except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him"
Sorry but the INTENT there ISNT that God forces man to love Him. The INTENT is that man CANNOT even COME unless the Father draw them. Get a clue.


NOTHING anywhere in the word draw or this verse even begins to suggest the word choose.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Again....the INTENT there ISNT that God forces man to love Him. The INTENT is that man CANNOT even COME unless the Father draw them.
 
Benoni said:
I am a lot more flexible then certain people think; but when you have to debate certain people who spin and assume with no scriptural foundation that is where I stand like a rock. Point being the choosen happens after the quickening or drawing and man really does not have a choice when an all powerful mighty God draws you.

Man has a freewill to sin; that is the way God created us; but until God draws us with His spirit we are dead and cannot choose. The truth of the supernatural and all-powerful DRAWING of God is one of the most neglected of all the great truths of God's Word, and yet it is one of the most important.

undoubtedly the reason for its neglect is that it is repugnant to the world of unregenerate man, and professing Christians whose theology denies the sovereign and infinite grace of God. One of the chief characteristics of apostate Christendom is that it vigorously opposes any teaching of Scripture that refuses to give man the glory.

Therefore any doctrine of the Bible that declares man's helplessness apart from the activating power of God is bound to arouse the ire of the adversary and his followers.
Gods word CLEARLY shows the FREE WILL of man.
The 'free will' offering was mentioned a time or two in scripture, so I got to looking to see if this word was presented in any context other than an offering
[quote:19le8yrj]H5071
נדב×â€
nedâbâh
BDB Definition:
1) voluntariness, free-will offering
1a) voluntariness
1b) freewill, voluntary, offering
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5068
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1299a
Oddly there are verses that contain it that show it relating to God....and some also to MAN outside of offerings..
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:3 KJV)
"People shall be WILLING".
Same root word "nedâbâh" that is used for free will offerings in many other verses.
Apparently even OUTSIDE of offerings the word IS USED concerning man.
And what is interesting in the passage above is how the word is used and what the verse says.
A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:1-3 KJV)
Just as PAUL shows in Romans 6, we willingly SUBMIT ourselves....
His people WILLINGLY subject themselves to His rule. They dont have to be forced as some falsely preach here.

The word is also used here in reference to GOD whom we KNOW has free will....
I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
(Hosea 14:4 KJV)
In the SAME manner that GOD FREELY loves them MAN can FREELY be willing to subject himself to Gods rule...[/quote:19le8yrj]
 
Sorry no choice; except for wht you assume; you truly are a broken record.

follower of Christ said:
Benoni said:
Wrong... We have already gone over the word freewill and yes carnal man has a freewill to sin; that is the way God created us;
Learn to read.
WHEN God DRAWS THEN man has the CHOICE offered to him to either repent or reject.
Regardless of how many times we repeat this the answer will remain the same.


[quote:3oona4em]God caused the fall no matter how many times your reject Romans 8:20 and Ps 90: 1-3.
Sorry but God DIDNT.

I'll ask you AGAIN...
DOES GOD 'ORDAIN' IT WHEN A MAN RAPES A CHILD ????


Once God draws you this is where you are wrong; the word draw means to drag or force this is proven by the eight verses in the scriptures that show how the word is used plus the lanuages shows no hint of choice or freewill as you try so hard to spin into this verse to change it meaning. This is spin which you cannot back up with anything but your opinion. "No one can come" "except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him"
Sorry but the INTENT there ISNT that man has no choice. The INTENT is that man CANNOT even COME unless the Father draw them. Get a clue.


NOTHING anywhere in the word draw or this verse even begins to suggest the word choose.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Again....the INTENT there ISNT that man has no choice. The INTENT is that man CANNOT even COME unless the Father draw them.[/quote:3oona4em]
 
Benoni said:
but until God draws us with His spirit we are dead and cannot choose
Hello Benoni:

I have always felt people take the concept of being "spiritually dead" and push it too far. I would be interested in your response to the following:

I believe that that the "deadness" of mankind "in trespass and sin" is a "moral deadness" not a "cognitive" deadness. Our hopelessly fallen "moral" condition need not mean that we have lost the faculty to recognize ourselves as being in that state and then accept aid offered to us.

I would warn readers on all sides here to not assume that "dead" means "dead in every respect". Clearly, the unregenerate are not dead in every respect - they get up in the morning, make decisions, etc. Besides, we often use the term "dead" to refer to one aspect or dimension of a person's capacities (e.g. Fred is emotionally dead - does this mean he is 'intellectually' dead - unable to reason? Of course not).

Consider this analogy: Let's say that my brain has been damaged in such a way that it is impossible for me to understand general relativity. Does this mean I cannot recognize and become aware of my incapacity in regard to general relativity? Obviously not. Blind people cannot see, but that does not mean they are not aware that sighted people have a capability that gives new information about the world.

In this example, I am "dead in my ignorance of general relativity", but I am not dead in other respects.

Suppose a surgeon comes along and says "We have this new operation that can fix your brain so that you can understand general relativity". Can I understand what he is claiming? Of course. Just like a blind person can understand that a certain operation might give him sight, even if he does not know what sight be like once he gets it (he has been blind from birth).

I trust the analogy is clear here. Unless it can be argued that our "deadness" extends to and includes our capacity to make judgements about ourselves and accept "a gift" that fixes our deadness.
 
Drew said:
Benoni said:
but until God draws us with His spirit we are dead and cannot choose
Hello Benoni:

I have always felt people take the concept of being "spiritually dead" and push it too far. I would be interested in your response to the following:

I believe that that the "deadness" of mankind "in trespass and sin" is a "moral deadness" not a "cognitive" deadness. Our hopelessly fallen "moral" condition need not mean that we have lost the faculty to recognize ourselves as being in that state and then accept aid offered to us.

I would warn readers on all sides here to not assume that "dead" means "dead in every respect". Clearly, the unregenerate are not dead in every respect - they get up in the morning, make decisions, etc. Besides, we often use the term "dead" to refer to one aspect or dimension of a person's capacities (e.g. Fred is emotionally dead - does this mean he is 'intellectually' dead - unable to reason? Of course not).

Agree. I have also expounded on this.

There is a problem with the Calvinist mindset that a "dead" person is like a man buried in the ground who can do nothing. Clearly, there is a separation in Scriptures between this sort of dead, and the spiritually dead. This inability to recognize this difference has confined a multitude to a false gospel and a terrible anthropological view.

I would suggest the doubting reader consider the parable of the Prodigal Son, found in Luke 15. Please note that Jesus calls the wayward son "dead" TWICE, yet, he managed to return to the Father of his own volition. Clealry, Jesus uses this as an analogy of sinful man's relationship to God - explaining that God awaits our return to Him and noting that we indeed CAN return by our choice, moved by grace. Man is indeed given the ability to respond to the promptings to return and beg God for forgiveness. Man, thus, does has free will.

To those who have ears, let them hear.

Regards
 
Drew,

Praise God I respect and understand what you are saying but like all things of God the letter killeth; and it is our mission as a believer to search out the glory of His Deep and awesome Word.

I believe all of are alive in the sense of being human; we walk and talk and have real earthy lives every day which is our flesh life; what a glorious life this flesh life for me that is with my awesome family, grandchildren and just being alive.

But then there is my spiritual life; that part of God within me where God’s spirit moves and speaks and directs me in my quest of knowing him and his deep glory. Most men are dead to this life and God’s spirit must quicken us out of are carnal religious state so we may hear with our spiritual ears, and see with our spiritual eyes at something remarkable.

Just because you are a Christian and a believer does not mean you have been quicken; most men of God see only the literal, the dead letter and reject and do not see the deep things of God.

Killeth: NT:615 apokteino (ap-ok-ti'-no); from NT:575 and kteino (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:

2 Corinthians 3:1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory
 
Let take the word Christ which simply means anointed; so anti Christ or anti anointing means the same thing. Today men follow religion, dogmas, creeds, popes, preachers; etc. and could care less about what God is saying. Anti anointing/ anti Christ means the same thing….. Deep truth is never on the surface; it is hidden deep with in God’s Word.

Moses was anointed by God which is pretty obvious; God. He put him here so we can understand who this awesome God really is.

Psalm 103:7
He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.

Moses knew God face to face that is compared to the Children of Israel; not like the children of Israel who knew only God’s acts. The blind lead the blind in religion today; they know only the acts


When Moses came down the mountain after experience God in a way that most cannot even fathom He had to cover his face with a veil because the carnally dead Children of Israel could not even look on Moses’ face let alone what Moses experience.

David was king; He was God’s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was anointed as child. Today’s ministry is chosen by men. I have found men of God that I know anointed by the deepness of their understanding not because they have been voted in or out by some dead church committee. David walked for many years and knew He had an anointing; but he kept it to himself and understood that Saul was God’s anointed; that is until the appointed time. I think we are better off to wait for God to anoint God’s chosen vessel then to anoint our own. Also let us not forget Solomon who was also anointed of God; but because of his marred and turning his heart to false idols he became corrupt. Reminds me of all the different religions out there that man has married into; there is only one way; Christ with in.

Back to death; I am just trying to open up the difference between the dead and the quickened.
 
Who is carnal man; he is a dead man for when Adam died we all died. Genesis 2: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

Death: First of all lets stop looking at death and sin as something so terrible negative; if God did not want death, sin etc to happen to His creation, it would of never happened; for He is God. A God who has a will and a purpose that far exceeds to false imaginations of all men be it Christian or carnal.

Genesis 5:5
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Adam died; it was God’s plan, but Adam was not dead not until Adam was 930 years old. Death the Bible is speaking of is a spiritual death, Adam walked with God in the Garden of Eden in the cool (spirit) of the day. Adam communed and talked with God directly and was in paradise or the realm of God. That is until Adam died.

I see the men of Genesis living for many years exceeding 900 years in many cases; I belief the reason for such a long life is the mere exposure to God’s glory; BUT slowly over these early years of man the dark hand of spiritual death became stronger and stronger until the glory (which is still there) was hidden by this spiritual death.

I am doing this in parts because I am an Illustrator and I paint pictures and I need to lay my base coat.
 
Benoni said:
But then there is my spiritual life; that part of God within me where God’s spirit moves and speaks and directs me in my quest of knowing him and his deep glory. Most men are dead to this life.....
I do not believe that the concept of being "spiritually dead" is given to us anywhere in the Bible. Perhaps you can show us some texts. Be aware that a text like "dead in trespasses and sin" does not really fit the bill, since it can be legitimately read as an expression of "judicial" state - on the way to the death that sin leads to. However, this phrase does not support the stronger statement that we are "spiritually" dead.

In short, I predict that any texts you produce, while perhaps consistent with your position, will be also be readable in a manner consistent with the position that I maintain - that humans are "alive enough" to recognize their predicament and act freely to accept grace.
 
Look up the different translation in Romans 3:11 and you will see man carnal dead men could care less about even the thought of God; there carnal mind does not understand, or seek, comprehend, discerns there is a God; this is what happened when we were cursed by God; we lost our spiritual perception of who and what God is; even denying there is a God.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.

Romans 3:9 (MSG) So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we all start out as sinners. Scripture leaves no doubt about it:

There's nobody living right, not even one,
nobody who knows the score, nobody alert for God.
They've all taken the wrong turn;
they've all wandered down blind alleys.
No one's living right;
I can't find a single one.
Their throats are gaping graves,
their tongues slick as mudslides.
Every word they speak is tinged with poison.
They open their mouths and pollute the air.
They race for the honor of sinner-of-the-year,
litter the land with heartbreak and ruin,
Don't know the first thing about living with others.
They never give God the time of day.
This makes it clear, doesn't it, that whatever is written in these Scriptures is not what God says about others but to us to whom these Scriptures were addressed in the first place! And it's clear enough, isn't it, that we're sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else? Our involvement with God's revelation doesn't put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else's sin.
 
Benoni said:
Just because you are a Christian and a believer does not mean you have been quicken;
Oh for pities sake....thats EXACTLY what it means.
We were DEAD spiritually...to be quickened means we have been brought to life
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(1 Peter 3:18 KJV)

G2227
ζÉοÀοιέÉ
zÃ…ÂopoieÃ…Â
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.
most men of God see only the literal, the dead letter and reject and do not see the deep things of God.
Which has NOTHING to do with being quickened.
Some men simply allow their carnal natures to rule them...which was a problem with the Corinthian church.
 
Ecclesiastes 7: 1A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

On the surface death seems so negative; but in the hands of an all knowing God even death has a victory. It is a fact the more new walk by His anointing the weaker our flesh will become and we will subdue us as well as every form of resistance of the carnal nature until it is His life alone that is made manifest.

Nothing like the glorious anointing of the Holy Spirit to make us weak - weak yet very strong for there is power released of which few know anything about because they have refused to accept the sphere of weakness where in He is made strong.

The first Adam died to God and righteousness, and became alive unto sin. The last Adam died unto sin (Rom. 6:10), and liveth unto God, and so fulfilleth all righteousness.

The first made all men sinners, the last makes all men righteous. The lives and the deaths of the two Adams are thus greatly contrasting the one to the other.

The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because -- the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.

Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh.

Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death, and thus Christ 'did taste death for every man' --'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9, 14-15).

Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more -- not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality -- but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it -- only God could use such a process bringing victory, but praise God, lie is destroying the first death with the second death"

Death is used to die out to which caused us to be entangled. After that the death process, after that comes salvation with its more abundant life. Thought death there is much that is destroyed-made non effect. It brings an end to so many things. All the old life, the carnality, the self life, the will the imaginations, the intents; but destroyed by the cross. However God does not desire fellowship with a corpse, so needs to follow a resurrection to much more divine living.

Above all, the weakness is an attitude of the heart, weather it has any outward forms expressed or not, it really does not matter when we know in ourselves that we are nothing so we lean heavily on Him. Drawing from Him that strength which is equal to the need, and that grace which is truly sufficient for all things. How precious does the Spirit help our weakness, as we rise to walk in that new creative life.

Romans 8: 19For [even the whole] creation (all nature) waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God's sons to be made known [waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their sonship].
20For the creation (nature) was subjected to [9] frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope(4)
21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.
22We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.(5)
23And not only the creation, but we ourselves too, who have and enjoy the firstfruits of the [Holy] Spirit [a foretaste of the blissful things to come] groan inwardly as we wait for the redemption of our bodies [from sensuality and the grave, which will reveal] our adoption (our manifestation as God's sons).
24For in [this] hope we were saved. But hope [the object of] which is seen is not hope. For how can one hope for what he already sees?


Second Death: Lake of Fire=
Romans 8

(Concordant Translation)
Rev 2:11 "'"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias (Church or called out). "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."
(KJV)
Rev. 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death


(Concordant Translation)
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years.


Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
(Whole Chapter: Revelation 2 In context: Revelation 2:10-12)
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(Whole Chapter: Revelation 20 In context: Revelation 20:5-7)
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Whole Chapter: Revelation 20 In context: Revelation 20:13-15)
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
francisdesales said:
Drew said:
Benoni said:
but until God draws us with His spirit we are dead and cannot choose
Hello Benoni:

I have always felt people take the concept of being "spiritually dead" and push it too far. I would be interested in your response to the following:

I believe that that the "deadness" of mankind "in trespass and sin" is a "moral deadness" not a "cognitive" deadness. Our hopelessly fallen "moral" condition need not mean that we have lost the faculty to recognize ourselves as being in that state and then accept aid offered to us.

I would warn readers on all sides here to not assume that "dead" means "dead in every respect". Clearly, the unregenerate are not dead in every respect - they get up in the morning, make decisions, etc. Besides, we often use the term "dead" to refer to one aspect or dimension of a person's capacities (e.g. Fred is emotionally dead - does this mean he is 'intellectually' dead - unable to reason? Of course not).

Agree. I have also expounded on this.

There is a problem with the Calvinist mindset that a "dead" person is like a man buried in the ground who can do nothing. Clearly, there is a separation in Scriptures between this sort of dead, and the spiritually dead. This inability to recognize this difference has confined a multitude to a false gospel and a terrible anthropological view.

I would suggest the doubting reader consider the parable of the Prodigal Son, found in Luke 15. Please note that Jesus calls the wayward son "dead" TWICE, yet, he managed to return to the Father of his own volition. Clealry, Jesus uses this as an analogy of sinful man's relationship to God - explaining that God awaits our return to Him and noting that we indeed CAN return by our choice, moved by grace. Man is indeed given the ability to respond to the promptings to return and beg God for forgiveness. Man, thus, does has free will.

To those who have ears, let them hear.

Regards
This 'prodigal son' story isnt about those who are born again an run out on God. Its an overview of mankind in general who has walked away from God as Adam did in the garden.
Its simply showing that we, as a race, have taken what the Father gave us and deserted Him....and when men are reconciled to Him then He and the angels are joyous.

To say that it is talking about those who are born again then turn from Him is in clear contradiction of so many warnings to NOT fall away.

.
 
Benoni said:
Back to death; I am just trying to open up the difference between the dead and the quickened.
And the difference is those who are lost and do not have life...and those who ARE born again and DO have life....precisely what the word 'quickened' means...
G2227
ζÉοÀοιέÉ
zÃ…ÂopoieÃ…Â
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.
 
Benoni said:
Death: First of all lets stop looking at death and sin as something so terrible negative; if God did not want death, sin etc to happen to His creation, it would of never happened; for He is God.
I suggest that this is circular reasoning. There are all kinds of conceptualizations of God out there. I suggest the possibility that you have, almost certainly without intent, latched onto a "god" model that is not supported in the scriptures. Where does the Bible say anything at all to the effect that "whatever God wants, God gets."? That notion is indeed wrapped up in the vague notion of god that many have in their heads. But is it the God of the Bible?

The Bible, I suggests, presents a far more sophisticated and subtle picture. We have in the scriptures a God who inserts a creature that bears His image into His creation. This should already cause people to question what I see as the overly simplistic model of a god who retains full control of everything. God has relinquished some of his power to man - how can this not be so if man truly did, in the beginning at least, bear his image. In doing so, He took a risk. When Adam fell, God could not simply snap His fingers to fix the problem. He engages instead in a long plan of redemption, spanning thousands of years and coming to a climax on the cross.

Besides, we have examples of God being "persuaded to change His mind" by the prayers of human beings. Things are not as simple as they seem - we need to be exceedingly carefully not to mix up "populist" ideas about who God is with what the Bible tells us about God.
 
Benoni said:
The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality.
The second death is VERY clearly being cast into the 'lake of fire'....literal lake, literal fire or not....it is very much in absolute agreement with the rest of the data about Eternal Punishment.
READERS SEE >>> Eternal Torment/punishment


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Sorry brother you may not like this but there are carnal christian as well as spiritual christians; some have been quickened other reject the deep things of God because they are dead aand have not been quickened. The bible is full of example for most drink milk and others meat. Some believe in the letter, others in the spiritual Word. Some believe in basic principles others seek ask and knock and see the spiritual word.


Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Carnal Christians never seek the deepness of God's Word.

follower of Christ said:
Benoni said:
Just because you are a Christian and a believer does not mean you have been quicken;
Oh for pities sake....thats EXACTLY what it means.
We were DEAD spiritually...to be quickened means we have been brought to life
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(1 Peter 3:18 KJV)

G2227
ζÉοÀοιέÉ
zÃ…ÂopoieÃ…Â
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.
[quote:32493338] most men of God see only the literal, the dead letter and reject and do not see the deep things of God.
Which has NOTHING to do with being quickened.
Some men simply allow their carnal natures to rule them...which was a problem with the Corinthian church.[/quote:32493338]
 
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