How free is our will?

[follower of Christ]

Romans 8: 19For [even the whole] creation (all nature) waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God's sons to be made known [waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their sonship].
20For the creation (nature) was subjected to [9] frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope(4)
21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.
22We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.(5)
23And not only the creation, but we ourselves too, who have and enjoy the firstfruits of the [Holy] Spirit [a foretaste of the blissful things to come] groan inwardly as we wait for the redemption of our bodies [from sensuality and the grave, which will reveal] our adoption (our manifestation as God's sons).
24For in [this] hope we were saved. But hope [the object of] which is seen is not hope. For how can one hope for what he already sees?

Which, again, is a result of Adams choice to sin.
Creation was subjected, against its will, to futility...which is part of the curse
Even the GROUND was cursed because of Adams sin..

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(Genesis 3:17 KJV)

The ground, nor creation, were subjected to such a curse UNTIL Adam CHOSE to sin...

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Sorry brother you may not like this but there are carnal christian as well as spiritual christians;

uh yeah....did ya happen to READ my posts where i JUST said that about the Corinthian church ?

some have been quickened other reject the deep things of God because they are dead aand have not been quickened. The bible is full of example for most drink milk and others meat. Some believe in the letter, others in the spiritual Word. Some believe in basic principles others seek ask and knock and see the spiritual word.

But you are using the concept of quickened in error.
A man can be quickened....ie ALIVE....and still allow that carnal nature to cause him to stumble about.
That doesnt mean that his is NOT quickened...not ALIVE in Christ. It simply means that he needs to get serious with God.

 

[Benoni]

I am still waiting for you to quote God's Word to back up your assmption; I have asked a multiple of times but you have never produced this prove; even thought Romans 8:20 and Ps. 90: 1-3 makes your statement a lie. Slo where is th proof?

Romans 8: 19For [even the whole] creation (all nature) waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God's sons to be made known [waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their sonship].
20For the creation (nature) was subjected to [9] frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope(4)
21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.
22We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.(5)
23And not only the creation, but we ourselves too, who have and enjoy the firstfruits of the [Holy] Spirit [a foretaste of the blissful things to come] groan inwardly as we wait for the redemption of our bodies [from sensuality and the grave, which will reveal] our adoption (our manifestation as God's sons).
24For in [this] hope we were saved. But hope [the object of] which is seen is not hope. For how can one hope for what he already sees?

Which, again, is a result of Adams choice to sin.
Creation was subjected, against its will, to futility...which is part of the curse
Even the GROUND was cursed because of Adams sin..

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(Genesis 3:17 KJV)

The ground, nor creation, were subjected to such a curse UNTIL Adam CHOSE to sin...

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Huh...
Scripture given in the very post benoni quotes and yet he asks for scripture...

Here it is again for someone who missed it..

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(Genesis 3:17 KJV)

BECAUSE Adam CHOSE to eat of that tree, he and his wife, the ground was cursed....creation was subjected...

I am still waiting for you to quote God's Word to back up your assmption; I have asked a multiple of times but you have never produced this prove; even thought Romans 8:20 and Ps. 90: 1-3 makes your statement a lie. Slo where is th proof?

Romans 8: 19For [even the whole] creation (all nature) waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God's sons to be made known [waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their sonship].
20For the creation (nature) was subjected to [9] frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope(4)
21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.
22We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.(5)
23And not only the creation, but we ourselves too, who have and enjoy the firstfruits of the [Holy] Spirit [a foretaste of the blissful things to come] groan inwardly as we wait for the redemption of our bodies [from sensuality and the grave, which will reveal] our adoption (our manifestation as God's sons).
24For in [this] hope we were saved. But hope [the object of] which is seen is not hope. For how can one hope for what he already sees?

Which, again, is a result of Adams choice to sin.
Creation was subjected, against its will, to futility...which is part of the curse
Even the GROUND was cursed because of Adams sin..

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(Genesis 3:17 KJV)

The ground, nor creation, were subjected to such a curse UNTIL Adam CHOSE to sin...

.

 

[Benoni]

You call it error; who are you who rejects all things spiritual can judge what is error in spiritual matters? Have you been quickened? But when I asked you what spiritual means you give me silences. How can someone be quickened spiritually if they cannot even begin to describe what is spiritual? Your problem is you are carnal; and reject all things spiritual.

Sorry brother you may not like this but there are carnal christian as well as spiritual christians;

uh yeah....did ya happen to READ my posts where i JUST said that about the Corinthian church ?

some have been quickened other reject the deep things of God because they are dead aand have not been quickened. The bible is full of example for most drink milk and others meat. Some believe in the letter, others in the spiritual Word. Some believe in basic principles others seek ask and knock and see the spiritual word.

But you are using the concept of quickened in error.
A man can be quickened....ie ALIVE....and still allow that carnal nature to cause him to stumble about.
That doesnt mean that his is NOT quickened...not ALIVE in Christ. It simply means that he needs to get serious with God.

 

[Benoni]

BECAUSE Adam CHOSE to eat of that tree, he and his wife, the ground was cursed....creation was subjected...

That is your assumption and opinion based on what that Adam choose?

You reject the following verses for no reason except of your assumption made from hot air. If what you say is true then product proof in God's Word; until you can produce proof all you have is assumption seeing God’s Word; not my assumption I have shown scriptural proof if you like it or not; then how about backing you lie with God's Word.

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

But you can't back it up so you try to force your false doctrine base on your hot air and assumption. We should change your name to follower of assumptions it would fit you better.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

MSG) 8-21 That's why I don't think there's any comparison between the present hard times and the coming good times. The created world itself can hardly wait for what's coming next. Everything in creation is being more or less held back. God reins it in until both creation and all the creatures are ready and can be released at the same moment into the glorious times ahead. Meanwhile, the joyful anticipation deepens.


(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.


(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

 

[follower of Christ]

BECAUSE Adam CHOSE to eat of that tree, he and his wife, the ground was cursed....creation was subjected...

That is your assumption and opinion based on what that Adam choose?

That is simply FACT based on what GODS word states, Im afraid.
The ground was cursed BECAUSE Adam chose to eat and thus sin.

You reject the following verses for no reason except of your assumption made from hot air.

Oh please.
My passage SAID what I asserted it did...that the earth was cursed BECAUSE of Adams sin.
Your absurdity doesnt say anything that you claim other than that creation was subjected...which we ALL KNOW already. It certainly doesnt make ANY claims that the subjection existed PRIOR to Adams fall...and the fact that the ground was cursed BECAUSE of Adams sin shows us that that state DIDNT exist PRIOR to sin when God called things 'good'.

If what you say is true then product proof in God's Word;

ok dokey then...

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(Genesis 3:17 KJV)

until you can produce proof all you have is assumption seeing God’s Word;

Again

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(Genesis 3:17 KJV)

not my assumption I have shown scriptural proof if you like it or not; then how about backing you lie with God's Word.

You have shown nothing but your perversion of Romans that DOESNT say what you claim...that this subjection existed prior to the fall.

 

[follower of Christ]

But you can't back it up so you try to force your false doctrine base on your hot air and assumption.

Thats pretty funny, gent, seeing that MY passage says exactly what I claim...that the curse was BECAUSE of Adams sin...the RESULT OF..

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(Genesis 3:17 KJV)

..and your passage DOESNT say what you claim....that this condition existed prior to Adams sin.

We should change your name to follower of assumptions it would fit you better.

Shall I contact Vic or Rick ?

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

MSG) 8-21 That's why I don't think there's any comparison between the present hard times and the coming good times. The created world itself can hardly wait for what's coming next. Everything in creation is being more or less held back. God reins it in until both creation and all the creatures are ready and can be released at the same moment into the glorious times ahead. Meanwhile, the joyful anticipation deepens.


(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.


(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

Romans 8:20 - A judgment on sinful man
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that this subjection of futility is an EFFECT, not a CAUSE, of mans condition and choice to sin.

Supporting Evidence

Romans 8:20 is one of those passages that there is a lot of disagreement upon by those who ARE scholars of scripture and of Greek.
It is absolutely not a good idea to found a whole doctrine upon in order to put the blame of OUR choice to sin on God.

I spent some time looking at it again and the disagreement of scholars is amazing...if men who DO know Greek and spend their whole lives studying Gods word cannot agree on what this tiny verse means exactly (there seems to be some disagreement on how the greek is to even be rendered into english exactly), then its is VERY dangerous to ignore verses like this one;

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

..that CLEARLY says that GOD is not responsible for OUR sin.

To run to a verse that may not even actually SAY what one wants it to say and then reject something that has NO other intent to but to purposefully convey ONE intent that GOD ISNT making us sin, is fairly dangerous, in my opinion.

As far as I have seen and understood it Romans 8:20 is a SENTENCE upon man...entirely against mans will he was subjected to this sentence that came about because of his DECISION to sin against God.

When man sinned against God did man, of his OWN WILL, WANT to be subjected to this 'futility' ?
That would make us insane as well as sinners.
There is NOTHING in Romans 8:20 that nullifies James 1:13-15, Im afraid. And it is a foolhardy venture to try to make that the case.

Romans 8:20 DOESNT say God makes men sin and is fairly uncertain as to its EXACT intent....James 1:13-15 CLEARLY presents that God does NOT do so.


Here are some words of men who know the greek language, since I dont (and I doubt others here do either).

Rom 8:20
Was subjected (hupetagē). Second aorist passive indicative of hupatassŠ(cf. Rom_8:7).
To vanity (tēi mataiotēti). Dative case. Rare and late word, common in lxx. From mataios, empty, vain. Eph_4:17; 2Pe_2:18.
Not of its own will (ouch hekousa). Common adjective, in N.T. only here and 1Co_9:27. It was due to the effect of man’s sin.
But by reason of him (alla dia ton). Because of God.
In hope that (Ephesians' helpidi hoti). Note the form helpidi rather than the usual elpidi and so Ephesians'. Hoti can be causal “because†instead of declarative “that.â€Â\
Vincent WORD studies

2.0
Cause and effect.

WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

Here we see very plainly that God cursed the ground BECAUSE of Adams sin...

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(Genesis 3:17 KJV)

BECAUSE Adam CHOSE to eat of that tree, he and his wife, the ground was cursed....creation was subjected to futility that Romans 8:20 speaks of.
.

 

[Benoni]

I do not care about your religious assumptions;



That is your assumption and opinion based on what?

You reject the following verses for no reason except of your assumption made from hot air. If what you say is true then product proof in God's Word; until you can produce proof all you have is assumption seeing God’s Word; not my assumption I have shown scriptural proof if you like it or not; then how about backing you lie with God's Word.

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have


But you can't back it up so you try to force your false doctrine base on your hot air and assumption. We should change your name to follower of assumptions it would fit you better.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

MSG) 8-21 That's why I don't think there's any comparison between the present hard times and the coming good times. The created world itself can hardly wait for what's coming next. Everything in creation is being more or less held back. God reins it in until both creation and all the creatures are ready and can be released at the same moment into the glorious times ahead. Meanwhile, the joyful anticipation deepens.


(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.


(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

But you can't back it up so you try to force your false doctrine base on your hot air and assumption.

Thats pretty funny, gent, seeing that MY passage says exactly what I claim...that the curse was BECAUSE of Adams sin...the RESULT OF..

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(Genesis 3:17 KJV)

..and your passage DOESNT say what you claim....that this condition existed prior to Adams sin.
[quote:q0z8muoo] We should change your name to follower of assumptions it would fit you better.

Shall I contact Vic or Rick ?

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

MSG) 8-21 That's why I don't think there's any comparison between the present hard times and the coming good times. The created world itself can hardly wait for what's coming next. Everything in creation is being more or less held back. God reins it in until both creation and all the creatures are ready and can be released at the same moment into the glorious times ahead. Meanwhile, the joyful anticipation deepens.


(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.


(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

Romans 8:20 - A judgment on sinful man
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that this subjection of futility is an EFFECT, not a CAUSE, of mans condition and choice to sin.

Supporting Evidence

Romans 8:20 is one of those passages that there is a lot of disagreement upon by those who ARE scholars of scripture and of Greek.
It is absolutely not a good idea to found a whole doctrine upon in order to put the blame of OUR choice to sin on God.

I spent some time looking at it again and the disagreement of scholars is amazing...if men who DO know Greek and spend their whole lives studying Gods word cannot agree on what this tiny verse means exactly (there seems to be some disagreement on how the greek is to even be rendered into english exactly), then its is VERY dangerous to ignore verses like this one;

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

..that CLEARLY says that GOD is not responsible for OUR sin.

To run to a verse that may not even actually SAY what one wants it to say and then reject something that has NO other intent to but to purposefully convey ONE intent that GOD ISNT making us sin, is fairly dangerous, in my opinion.

As far as I have seen and understood it Romans 8:20 is a SENTENCE upon man...entirely against mans will he was subjected to this sentence that came about because of his DECISION to sin against God.

When man sinned against God did man, of his OWN WILL, WANT to be subjected to this 'futility' ?
That would make us insane as well as sinners.
There is NOTHING in Romans 8:20 that nullifies James 1:13-15, Im afraid. And it is a foolhardy venture to try to make that the case.

Romans 8:20 DOESNT say God makes men sin and is fairly uncertain as to its EXACT intent....James 1:13-15 CLEARLY presents that God does NOT do so.


Here are some words of men who know the greek language, since I dont (and I doubt others here do either).

Rom 8:20
Was subjected (hupetagē). Second aorist passive indicative of hupatassŠ(cf. Rom_8:7).
To vanity (tēi mataiotēti). Dative case. Rare and late word, common in lxx. From mataios, empty, vain. Eph_4:17; 2Pe_2:18.
Not of its own will (ouch hekousa). Common adjective, in N.T. only here and 1Co_9:27. It was due to the effect of man’s sin.
But by reason of him (alla dia ton). Because of God.
In hope that (Ephesians' helpidi hoti). Note the form helpidi rather than the usual elpidi and so Ephesians'. Hoti can be causal “because†instead of declarative “that.â€Â\
Vincent WORD studies

2.0
Cause and effect.

WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

Here we see very plainly that God cursed the ground BECAUSE of Adams sin...

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(Genesis 3:17 KJV)

BECAUSE Adam CHOSE to eat of that tree, he and his wife, the ground was cursed....creation was subjected to futility that Romans 8:20 speaks of.
.[/quote:q0z8muoo]

 

[follower of Christ]

COULD A MODERATOR TELL BENONI TO STOP THE REPETITION HERE ?
THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS FULL OF THIS NONSENSE AND ITS GETTING OUT OF HAND.
HE COPIED AN ENTIRE POST JUST TO GET THE LAST WORD HERE AND ITS GETTING A BIT CHILDISH.

 

[follower of Christ]

I do not care about your religious assumptions;

What you apparently dont care about are facts.

 

[Benoni]

This is so childish playing to post tag. Your the one assuming and calling it God's Word. Your the one spinning every verse you do not agree with. If any one is spinning and ignoring facts it is you.

You replace valid verse with assumption not facts; you twist verse that you do not want to believe. You refuse to believe your heresies of damnation are heresy so you spin the verse to mean nothing relevant. You are a carnal man and cannot address God’s word is spiritual because your carnal religious mind is to dead to see anything spiritual. You are the one who not only ignore the facts but you spin and assume, assume, assume. Then you call me childish.

I do not care about your religious assumptions;

What you apparently dont care about are facts.

 

[mondar]

I would like to see Follower of Christ and Benoni face off in a 1 on 1 thread named "Who is right." There will be no topic, just the two of them both claiming to be right.

 

[francisdesales]

Let take the word Christ which simply means anointed; so anti Christ or anti anointing means the same thing. Today men follow religion, dogmas, creeds, popes, preachers; etc. and could care less about what God is saying. Anti anointing/ anti Christ means the same thing….. Deep truth is never on the surface; it is hidden deep with in God’s Word.

Is there a possibility you could speak more clearly in your attempt to refute Drew and my comments regarding the spiritually dead being able to choose, with the grace of God, to repent??? The first post was of no avail, and this did not improve my ability to understand your comments...

Such comments above are merely grandstanding. You could just as easily added yourself to the long list of people who may not "care less about what God is saying". One doesn't need to be "religious", by your definition, to avoid what the Word says.

The "deep truth" is that man has free will, not that he is corrupt beyond help and that God must pretend that man is "clean" to allow him to enter into union with Him in heaven.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I would like to see Follower of Christ and Benoni face off in a 1 on 1 thread named "Who is right." There will be no topic, just the two of them both claiming to be right.

Seems that we have already reached that point...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Death: First of all lets stop looking at death and sin as something so terrible negative; if God did not want death, sin etc to happen to His creation, it would of never happened; for He is God.

I suggest that this is circular reasoning. There are all kinds of conceptualizations of God out there. I suggest the possibility that you have, almost certainly without intent, latched onto a "god" model that is not supported in the scriptures. Where does the Bible say anything at all to the effect that "whatever God wants, God gets."? That notion is indeed wrapped up in the vague notion of god that many have in their heads. But is it the God of the Bible?

The Bible, I suggests, presents a far more sophisticated and subtle picture. We have in the scriptures a God who inserts a creature that bears His image into His creation. This should already cause people to question what I see as the overly simplistic model of a god who retains full control of everything. God has relinquished some of his power to man - how can this not be so if man truly did, in the beginning at least, bear his image. In doing so, He took a risk. When Adam fell, God could not simply snap His fingers to fix the problem. He engages instead in a long plan of redemption, spanning thousands of years and coming to a climax on the cross.

Besides, we have examples of God being "persuaded to change His mind" by the prayers of human beings. Things are not as simple as they seem - we need to be exceedingly carefully not to mix up "populist" ideas about who God is with what the Bible tells us about God.

Excellent post. It gets to the root of the problem - the denial of the Incarnation and its implications. This goes back to a previous comment about the CENTRALITY of Christianity as knowing Who God is.

Regards

 

[Benoni]

Show me in God's Word where the spiritually dead can choose God? Show me in God's Word where man has a freewill. Start at the beginning of this tread and read the post; all this has been covered.

To much assuming going on which does not make it a scriptural fact.

Let take the word Christ which simply means anointed; so anti Christ or anti anointing means the same thing. Today men follow religion, dogmas, creeds, popes, preachers; etc. and could care less about what God is saying. Anti anointing/ anti Christ means the same thing….. Deep truth is never on the surface; it is hidden deep with in God’s Word.

Is there a possibility you could speak more clearly in your attempt to refute Drew and my comments regarding the spiritually dead being able to choose, with the grace of God, to repent??? The first post was of no avail, and this did not improve my ability to understand your comments...

Such comments above are merely grandstanding. You could just as easily added yourself to the long list of people who may not "care less about what God is saying". One doesn't need to be "religious", by your definition, to avoid what the Word says.

The "deep truth" is that man has free will, not that he is corrupt beyond help and that God must pretend that man is "clean" to allow him to enter into union with Him in heaven.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Show me in God's Word where the spiritually dead can choose God? Show me in God's Word where man has a freewill. Start at the beginning of this tread and read the post; all this has been covered.

To much assuming going on which does not make it a scriptural fact.

I already have. Luke 15, which was not mentioned, as far as I can tell. I refered you to the Prodigal Son story and had presumed that you would actually read it. Forgive me if I presumed you would actually be open to the possibility that you are wrong...

But here is God's Word, dead-set against your presumptions...

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Luke 15:24

It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. Luke 15:32

Jesus calls the younger son "DEAD". Twice, for those who might have tried to quickly read over this passage so as to maintain their personal beliefs.

Did the son or did he not freely return to the father? And isn't this story's intent to show that mankind in general CAN return to God without being bodily dragged against his will??? That is the entire intent of Luke 15 - to show the joy God has when man repents and returns.

Don't make assumptions about your position while ignoring what I have already written. The problem is you read Ephesians and automatically assumes that dead is like Lazarus in the tomb... Not so. With God's grace that allows free will, I am able to choose to repent. John touches on this in his first epistle as well, in that even those who sin grieviously and have committed deadly sin have available the sacrifice of Christ made available to them.

Regards

 

[Drew]

Show me in God's Word where man has a freewill. Start at the beginning of this tread and read the post; all this has been covered.

One thing that has already been covered is that the question "where are we told that man has free will" is not the right question, precisely becuase "freewill" is arguably such a basic concept in most worldviews that it get implicitly bundled into other concepts - concepts like "to choose" or "to decide". The absence of an explicit assertion of free will is therefore not all that telling.

Do we say that Fred chose to drink Pepsi? Yes. Would we say that the rock chose to fall off the mountain face? No, of course not. Why the difference? The difference arises from an implicit belief that Fred, unlike the rock, possesses some measure of self-determining free will. If Fred could exert no control over the action of drinking Pepsi - just like the rock can exert no control over it fate - then why do we use such different language? Why does it seem non-sensical to speak of a rock "choosing" to do something, while such a notion makes perfect sense in relation to the actions of a human person?

The answer: we believe that people, unlike rocks, have some degree of self-determinative agency.

Benoni, whatever good arguments you have, I suggest that this "where does the Bible assert free will" argument goes nowhere, for precisely the reasons outlined.

 

[follower of Christ]

This is so childish playing to post tag.

I agree...so WHY do you keep REposting the same exact points over and again so that they have to be refuted over and over ?

Your the one assuming and calling it God's Word. Your the one spinning every verse you do not agree with. If any one is spinning and ignoring facts it is you.

Please...

You replace valid verse with assumption not facts;

Sorry gent, but Genesis is clear, the curse on the earth was BECAUSE of Adams sin. Creation was subjected BECAUSE of Adams choice to disobey God.

you twist verse that you do not want to believe.

No, I demand that you PROVE your assertion that creation was subjected to futility BEFORE Adams sin. So far youve given us squat.

You refuse to believe your heresies of damnation are heresy so you spin the verse to mean nothing relevant.

it doesnt say 'heresies of damnation', friend. The translators have agreed pretty conclusively that it is calling the heresies themselves 'damnable'.

You are a carnal man and cannot address God’s word is spiritual because your carnal religious mind is to dead to see anything spiritual.
You are the one who not only ignore the facts but you spin and assume, assume, assume. Then you call me childish.

Ive given you fact, youve responded with irrelevance.