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[_ Old Earth _] How God did it,... I'm all ears....

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that's right cupid. Now for the next level ... the heavy.

I lay the bible in the center of a playground, sit back and watch. That is it's place. No more, no less.

It answers "whatam I".

after that we have to pick a base set of axioms that seem reasonable. We can't know it all. But I don't base the traits of god on what"I" don't know. I base the traits of god on what "I" do know.

And that's what science is. a set of eyes.

But your "eyes" don't define "you", they help you be the best "you" can be. "seeing" the bible, helps you treat your neighbor as the"YOU" they are.

I learnt that from Jesus.

A book is a book, am I to be a book? science helps me "see", It isimpossible to lock Christ in a book. Itis impossible to lock "life" itself into a book.
I learnt that from christ too.
The axiom that "the book is god", isthe apple. plain and simple


Yeah,..

I am totally down with that.

It is the main reason that I want believers to "see" that their private interpretations of Genesis are fine as long as they do not organize, form gigantic congregations and together insist the the next generation believe Genesis MUSt cintradict Science and Academic knowledge if one chooses to believe what they say Genesis says.


It makes zero difference whether a believer comes to Christ because he understood that science confirms Genesis.
But it makes all the difference in the world if Bill Maher detours a believer by saying Genesis says science is wrong, and the church people side against me, but with Bill Maher.
 
private interpretations of Genesis

It's quite a stretch to call what Moses said about what he wrote a 'private interpretation'. He specifically modeled (as you have learned) the week that was used by Israel in their day-to-day lives on the Creation Week found in Genesis. That made it public, not "private". Pretty sure (in fact, I'm certain) that those writings and their translations have been "public" for so long that there is no copyright anywhere. They are in "public domain," even as we speak.

Now, your turn. What is the justification for your private interpretation? Do you quote any Scriptural source for your belief? Did your belief occur to Job or to David? That's okay. You're perfectly capable of coming to your own understanding. I wouldn't have it any other way. I would draw the line when the cart is put before the horse, because it ain't going nowhere fast.

Private interpretation, indeed. "Harrumph." Pardon the interruption - for a second it almost seemed like you were baiting the response, but I know you better than that, right?
 
private interpretations of Genesis

It's quite a stretch to call what Moses said about what he wrote a 'private interpretation'. He specifically modeled (as you have learned) the week that was used by Israel in their day-to-day lives on the Creation Week found in Genesis. That made it public, not "private". Pretty sure (in fact, I'm certain) that those writings and their translations have been "public" for so long that there is no copyright anywhere. They are in "public domain," even as we speak.

Now, your turn. What is the justification for your private interpretation? Do you quote any Scriptural source for your belief? Did your belief occur to Job or to David? That's okay. You're perfectly capable of coming to your own understanding. I wouldn't have it any other way. I would draw the line when the cart is put before the horse, because it ain't going nowhere fast.

Private interpretation, indeed. "Harrumph." Pardon the interruption - for a second it almost seemed like you were baiting the response, but I know you better than that, right?


No,...
You were right.
I was baiting it.

All the interpretations on the table are private ones, especially the twelve "owned" and defended relentlessly by the 12 major mainstream denominational Christian Churches who tout there own onterpretations as the ONLY path to the kingdom to come.. and charge/have charged others with blasphemy and even called others the whore of Babylon.

In EVERY case, those 12 major mainstream churches were started and were founded upon the interpretations of a single man who gathered tegether the first congregation of that church which then perpetuated itself and it private interpretation of that mere man into the present, today.

I, too, am a mere man touting my private interpretation and placing it upon the table as the newest and most recent addition to our difference guesses about a Biok that is claimed to be closed to us all until the lamb from the root of David appears, and opens that sealed book
5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon:
 
So the question to you, Cupid, becomes based on two premises:


1) You have created your own private interpretation, which you believe is correct
2) You believe that the book is closed to us until "the lamb form the root of David appears" who will open the book.



If you believe that you are capable of opening the book but also attest that only this chosen person spoken of in Rev. is capable of opening the book, then you are in quite a predicament.


Either you think that you ARE this person from the bible, or you should stop thinking that you have the ability to discern the indiscernible.
 
I call them strings,

Those bits of information the brains needs to get a grasp on the surroundings. He does not think heis the only one that can see "it". In fact, he knows anybody can, and almost everybody does, "see it". But he can see it none the less. The bible is just that "string"used to make sense of "it" for many people. And the bible aint bad for that.

"personal interpretation". This is a valid notion when use to describe how people make sense of their surroundings. It must start in the individual's own mind. This is a valid stance, as Iam sure you understand. It is seen everywhere in psychology. "religion", is that boat that helps people tie intheir personal perspectives with those of the "pack" members around them. Again, notions that ties individuals"with "pack members" is a valid stance for a social animal like humans. Many animals have rituals that do this.

stating that it is "indiscernible" is not true really. What is true that we cannot discern"literal truth" from a book that is "not literal". Or, like the movie titanic, write a history book on that movie. But, that boat sank. Just like "there is a higherpower". Just another angle thatshows a non-literal bible "true". There is too many angles (conditions) that a non-literal" bible holds up under. Far more conditions than the opposing claim.


 
I call them strings,

Those bits of information the brains needs to get a grasp on the surroundings. He does not think heis the only one that can see "it". In fact, he knows anybody can, and almost everybody does, "see it". But he can see it none the less. The bible is just that "string"used to make sense of "it" for many people. And the bible aint bad for that.

"personal interpretation". This is a valid notion when use to describe how people make sense of their surroundings. It must start in the individual's own mind. This is a valid stance, as Iam sure you understand. It is seen everywhere in psychology. "religion", is that boat that helps people tie intheir personal perspectives with those of the "pack" members around them. Again, notions that ties individuals"with "pack members" is a valid stance for a social animal like humans. Many animals have rituals that do this.

stating that it is "indiscernible" is not true really. What is true that we cannot discern"literal truth" from a book that is "not literal". Or, like the movie titanic, write a history book on that movie. But, that boat sank. Just like "there is a higherpower". Just another angle thatshows a non-literal bible "true". There is too many angles (conditions) that a non-literal" bible holds up under. Far more conditions than the opposing claim.




Yeah,...

You are on the same wave length which will help us to understand what is meant here.

Every interpretation of scripture is a private one, regardless of how old and relatively new it may be.
It may have caught on long ago, and whole churches of people, for generations, repeated that same way of understanding the Bible.
The group or congregation may be so enormously large now, and in such a massive majority, that no one notices it is squelching any minority views.
It is censoring freedom of speech.
It is de facto claiming it has "opened the sealed book."
It is saying the messiah has come, and he was their initial leader, the founder of that church.

Heresy charges in the past have often been followed with the inquisition or witch burnings or what ever.

Strange enough, these same people were attacked themselves, like the Protestants before the Reformation, for instance. Yet they soon became as authoritative and repressive as had the Theocracy of the Roman Church attacking them early on.

Today, this authoritative establishmentarianism will shun or ostracize the adherents to any new takes on the Bible.
But of course history is full of much worse treatments dealt out in the past.

In is rather revealing that when a different and new insight is presented to church people, (where one would think such religious theology ought be taken for review),... that is exactly the most dangerous place in the world to bring new ideas and information.

Why is that?

Simply because these people believe that they HAVE opened to the sealed Book.
Hence, they believe they do God, himself, a service by attacking the person who offers any and all contradictions, criticisms, corrections, or new insights in the Bible.

And, they will defend their behavior by the contradiction that what is being offered is so good that people may actually feed into it.
The observation that other people agree with the "new wine" is the proof that this must be stopped, because it makes too much sense.

In other words, if the insight is really, really good, and has potential for attracting interest and even agreement by people who hear the point of view, it is exactly that which they must silence.

LOL
The BETTER the bible interpretation may be, the more their urgency to silence and ostracize that other private view point.
The more it ring true to the impartial person weighing the ideas, the more certain these other people are that it is evil, because THEY assert that they have the Truth, they have opened the book, they need no more commentary or bible study.
 
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wow your post gets deep. It goes into so many areas. They killed him for what you just stated.

one area is control. It cannot be ignored.

when you can burn the book, and laugh, they lose control. But what is really funny, is that when you truly don't need the book, there is no need to burn it. You pass it to another that they may live. Those that must burn it are locked into literal as much as those that can't.

Jesus did this with the Jews around him. He handed them a take on his religion (Jewish) that will offer them strength,the torah. When you can walk into a lion's den with the smile of Christ, they lose control. I don't need to be holding onto a book to do that. But I offer it to those that find strengthin it. And I go first.

It gets back to being human. Get gets back to understanding what we are, and being honest about it. We are only ahalf a set away from being a monkey. Some of us have absolutely no free will. They are their next thought. They fear the mystic, because when they speak of Christ, they speak of everything. But how do we keep from going"ape"?

"The way to him, is threw me". This is true of everybody you meet. The way to knowing god, is to understand the "you" in your neighbor. They don't understand that "Christ" is not a"thing", he is, in fact, a meme. Memes don't die, they never leave. They get diluted when mixed with other memes.

When I rejected a literal interpretation of Christ, he became truly alive. The Vail was removed. The light was to bright to look into directly. So I now I use a religion. Just like SPF 30.

we are "Templars". sitting quite for now. We know our place. But I think the time to form up may be coming. The enemy will be wearing the same cloths, using the same words, and carry the same book. You can see them by the adjectives they use to describe the enemy. For United in Christ, means the devil can't win.

you went deep. I could write a book on this.
 
In EVERY case, those 12 major mainstream churches were started and were founded upon the interpretations of a single man who gathered tegether the first congregation of that church which then perpetuated itself and it private interpretation of that mere man into the present, today.

Or maybe, what Paul feared came true. Some came and taught heresy. The church fell into darkness. The world experienced the "dark ages". Then, before the truth and the light were lost utterly, God spoke. One man, Martin Luther, came saying, "Don't name this move of God after me," and spoke of Grace while in jail for his beliefs. What did those who heard God through his preaching do? They named themselves after him. Lutherans. To be fair, they were dubbed "Lutherans" by their opponents and they accepted it. Another man heard the truth of Baptism, that it was to be the whole body and there was a difference between baptismo (immersion) and being rantized (sprinkled). God continued with His people. It was the same then as it was in yesteryear. God spoke. Some heard. Of those who heard, some listened and obeyed. The "called out ones" continue to be called out. And toward what end? The purpose of God is not confusion and disunity. Jesus is the plumb-line where each individual and each group may and need be compared. That we may walk upright and before the Lord in all truth and praise.

Now enter Science and observations that do not consider the unseen. Now enter cupid dave who speaks. It's okay to speak and I do understand that you have strongly held opinions. The difference between having opinions and being opinionated is a person who has opinions considers the thoughts of others where the opinionated considers his or her own thoughts about every subject with out allowing themselves to be persuaded in any case. It is the same difference between having an argument (a difference of opinion) and being argumentative. Both are a difference of degree.

I too have opinions but regarding the statement, "All the interpretations on the table [about Genesis] are private ones," surely even an opinionated and argumentative person would agree that the writings of Moses are first interpreted by Moses. What what HIS opinion about? Can we make any statements about what Moses said he said and what it could mean? Turns out we can.

Ex 20:8-10 : "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God."
  • Ex 20:11 : "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."
  • Lev 25:4 is made clear by its context.
  • Ex 20:11 calls the it the 7th day just as we have 7 days in the week.

God gave Israel a specific day to remember which was the same day that he rested, showing his covenant with them. That they might have rest in him. They did not have a thousand years to rest but one day at the end of the week just as we keep our calendar today. Do not insist that I must work for a thousand years or a million years and repeat the cycle 6 times before I may have one day of rest. That is beyond my ability. The opinion and argument being advanced is clouded at every chance. Smoke and mirrors. Smoke and mirrors. Deflection, accusation, finger pointing. Why? What is the problem with allowing Moses to have side in the argument? Why can't Moses have an opinion? Is it merely because he disagrees with you? Tell me it ain't so.
 
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science that doesn't consider the unseen? really?

Science considers everything. what scientist do not do is make claims about the unknown without any evidence to do so. They list what they have and draw a conclusion from that list.

That is bad why exactly?

I mean even jesus seemed to have done that. That is why he stood so firmly against literal religion.

 
I mean even jesus seemed to have done that. That is why he stood so firmly against literalreligion.

I think you know what I mean. Although Jesus spoke of His Father in Heaven, a Scientist would not be able to propose a thought about what was not first observed, regardless the evidence (the miracles) or the testimony (if you don't believe me, believe the miracles). Just seems to me that the whole "method" is very useful but not universally capable. Science does not attempt to guide people to their ultimate destination, nor does it make promise or assurance regarding life after death. That's the "unseen" kind of thing I was talking about. No offence meant.

So unless there could be any remaining questions about what it means when a Christian says "the unseen," I'd like to get back to what we were speaking about. There is a distinct difference between two points of view under discussion where one party alleges that man has been disrupting the truth and another has said no, quite the opposite, God has been pouring out knowledge and as is always the case, some listen and some do not.
 
science does list the "miracle" and the "testimonies". They list everything. Then a scientist, or anybody, can draw a conclusion off of that list.

yes, man can disrupt the truth. Would one question that?
yes, god is knowledge.

what is your point?

no, science can't guide people. science "guides" you like your eye ball guides you. It is a process, not a "thing".

But I don't agree that scientist don'twant to help people. I think they do. But they want to use, to the best of our ability, what we do know. They understand if you anchor a "claim" in the unknown, it can mislead people.

they, also understand that man is man. so they put in place a set of guidelines to help ourselves from ourselves. We call it the scientific method.

what I see being discussed it literal interpretations fall painfully short of god and Jesus. I use Jesus' life to back up that claim.


Don't worry about offending me, you can't.
Just don't cry like punk if/when you get it back
 
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lmao. I say don't dish it out if you can't take it and that almost provokes you? to funny

you have really misstated what science is and is not. I am just trying to clarify it.

your quote:
"Science does not attempt to guide people to their ultimate destination, nor does it make promise or assurance regarding life after death"
I took that as "help guide them",. But whatever.

science doesn't guide anything. It is a set of eyes. And why would scientists make a promise on something that may not be real? I think it is rude to even suggest that this is a bad thing. Just as I think it is a bad thing for a scientist to force people to drop their source of strength if what they (scientist) are offering can't help that person.

also, many scientist are Like me and don't say "no possibility". They say that a "literal Christian type afterlife" is less likely. And this claim is based on what you seem to made up of and how things work. I (and science) use all the miracles and testimonies from all religions to make that claim. Not just one I want to be real.

again, you misunderstand science on many levels. Science does include "miracles" and "testimony". But because they don't rank with the same weight as what you think they should, that bothers you.

back to the topic:
I don't think it is the difference between "man introducing error" and "god knowledge is available to us".

they are both true. are they not?
 
your quote:
"Science does not attempt to guide people to their ultimate destination, nor does it make promise or assurance regarding life after death"
I took that as "help guide them",. But whatever.

It's okay. I understand that others may take me wrong when I speak of things heavenly. Science does not attempt to guide people to heaven in the same manner that The Christ has. That is what I meant by "ultimate destination". No offence is meant nor should you assume that I don't like science or knowledge or wisdom for that matter. I do lack the ability to communicate well sometimes. That's true enough.

again, you misunderstand science on many levels

Perhaps I do, but then again, that is a common thing. I'm writing an article this week for my English Comp class that addresses three 'characters' who are involved in the discussion. One 'character' in the little drama that is being written is "The Scientist," (the protagonist) and the other character is "The Public". A third character is introduced to help resolve the disconnect known as "The Journalist" so that the whole matter may be resolved via education. Let the Journalist be formally required in his or her pursuit of a degree to spend some time learning the terms of the trade regarding all manner of scientific endeavour so that they may better speak of the technical points made by those who are concerned with the health and welfare of 'The Public' and also let 'The Scientist' learn more about the field of Journalism, so that they too are better equipped to face the practical solution to the often complained about problem. Add to this a more rigorous study of both fields in General Education and the path toward success is at least partially paved.

Here then is one of the primary sources for my thought: Knowledge is power: In a world shaped by science, what obligation do scientists have to the public? by Ellizabeth Halliday, published by Inter-Research 2009 (www.int-res.com) Of course, she said it so much better than I.



back to the topic:
I don't think it is the difference between "man introducing error" and "god knowledge is available to us".

they are both true. are they not?

Huh? Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that the difference between the thematic statements within what is alleged by cupid dave and the counter-point that I've tried to offer escapes you? Would you care to elaborate?
 
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err, I guess it does. you said
" There is a distinct difference between two points of view under discussion where one party alleges that man has been disrupting the truth and another has said no, quite the opposite, God has been pouring out knowledge and as is always the case, some listen and some do not."

I see them both as true. so maybe I am confused.

back to science.


yes, most people misunderstand science. And I blame egotistical scientist that use people's uncertainty to gain the advantage over them and use science to do it. Sound familiar? Then they push their views of as"what science says". They are wrong. I think, like religious literalist, they fear people understanding what science is because the scientist conclusion can be questioned and their conclusion become "less valid".

"science" data points to a "higher power". And if people understood science, the anti-religion people would lose some creditability. "anti-religionis quite different than " I don't follow your religion".

"science" is god's way to help man understand him. God, not only teaches us to know the "you" in your enemy, he lives it. He wants you to know the "you" in him. He is showing us the"HIM" in us.

can you point out where these notions are so far off?
 
can you point out where these notions are so far off?

I don't think I would want to. It seems to me that your mind is completely made up on the subject. It was cupid dave that titled the thread, "How God did it,... I'm all ears...."
 
for the second time, I am ok with your attemp at insulting me.

My stance gets stronger after this response. That is how science works. You take an idea to people that don't think like you and see what they say. Your answer? well, you and I both know whyyou couldn't answer. Any stance against this trait of god would look bad. A "regular" science guy mite yell and scream atfirst, but they take the information back to reread and evaluate the response. Like "miracles" and"testimonies". The counter points are added to "the list of observations". And conclusions are drawn. Just like how bible thumpers scream and yell.

I said I wasn't clear on the difference in the two stances. Can you teach me what I am missing?

I am over zealous ... but that's its it.
 
lol - your statement "for the second time" betrays your sentiment and I'm okay with that. I have no need for you to speak and tell me what you really mean in black and white.

So, take science for instance. Can it consider anecdotal evidence? No? But the field of humanities may. In that field and not the rather prickly field of science we may consider the ethos and the pathos and not just the logic of the argument. What's wrong with considering all and would that not be a better stance for critical (not necessarily pro and con) thinking?

I still don't agree that I am your teacher, don't beg, it demeans you.
 

If you can't take it, don't dish it out. I am begging because you refuse to answer thequestions.

I failed to see the difference in: I am begging you to show me the difference.

" There is a distinct difference between two points ofview under discussion where one party alleges that man has been disrupting thetruth and another has said no, quite the opposite, God has been pouring outknowledge and as is always the case, some listen and some do not."

We list observations then discuss them all. It is unwise to take everything on equalterms. where you are wrong (flat out wrong like : 2+2=7) is that people have toweight things equally. Then try to push off those that don't see it your way as"opinionated".

Your word play on "miracles" is a great example.

Scientist says "yes", there are unexplainedevents. And yes they happen all over theplace. But scientist also say, it seems they cannot be predicted by"man" as to when, where, andwhy.

If you say you can predict the cause then all a person hasto ask is "how"? "What is your data?"

If, you have one piece of "data", like thebible. Then a scientist puts that onepiece in the list. You can even put it in as "equal" to all theothers if you want.

When listed the data seems to point to a "literalbible" is less probable than a"non-literal bible". And atsome point it is ok to say that a "literal bible" seems far lesslikely than people claim. And expect not to be called "opinionated"when the words "seems" is used.




 
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wow your post gets deep. It goes into so many areas. They killed him for what you just stated.

one area is control. It cannot be ignored.

when you can burn the book, and laugh, they lose control. But what is really funny, is that when you truly don't need the book, there is no need to burn it. You pass it to another that they may live. Those that must burn it are locked into literal as much as those that can't.

Jesus did this with the Jews around him. He handed them a take on his religion (Jewish) that will offer them strength,the torah. When you can walk into a lion's den with the smile of Christ, they lose control. I don't need to be holding onto a book to do that. But I offer it to those that find strengthin it. And I go first.

It gets back to being human. Get gets back to understanding what we are, and being honest about it. We are only ahalf a set away from being a monkey. Some of us have absolutely no free will. They are their next thought. They fear the mystic, ...
you went deep. I could write a book on this.



John 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.


The church today is stone walling the ancient and out-of-date interpretation of Genesis, constantly against the ropes as the bible bashers and critics like Dawkins, Bill Maher, etc, ridicule the whole idea of God.

In the meantime, as church attendance dwindles down to less than 50% in America, and under 20% in Europe, they focus of ideas that suggest Christ was about feeling sorry for people on Welfare, inner city crime breeding Single Mothers, free ticket to America by cheaters pushing ahead of legal immigrants in line, pretending they oppose Abortion when 66% of the young girls claim they are Christian, etc.

They will not accept criticism nor change the momentum of their misdirection
as they circle the wagons like we see when it comes to the sensible observation that Genesis is about cosmic evolution.
 
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