How is a biblical conflict solved?

[Jethro Bodine]

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9

That is correct, Justification and salvation are not identical interchangeable terms. But what you are failing to realize is the justified person is saved. Your doctrine errs by saying the justified person then works in order to become a saved person. Catholicism is exactly the works gospel condemned in scripture. It is a religion for unbelievers who don't know better.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jethro Bodine

This should be under TALK WITH STAFF.

I find the 10,000 word limit to be very difficult to deal with.
Sometimes, as least in my case, it's not that I list a lot of verses, this never works well anyway - I call it carpet bombing -
but the other member to whom I'm responding might have written a post that is longer than usual, and then when I add my reply it comes out to be too long.

It's not easy to then cut and paste it. A mistake could cause you to lose the whole post.

And why would Jethro want posts to be shorter?
We could pick and choose to what we want to reply -

And yes, I do agree that donadams does list far too many verses - this causes persons to just overlook them.
One or two verses get much more attention and still can make the point.

Yes, it could have been taken to TWTS, but I feel his question needed to be answered for all to see. What we are asking is that donadams to quit making his post so long that it makes it hard to discuss with him, but I digress.

 

[GodsGrace]

Mary is not the mother of God. Jesus and the Father have existed from eternity past long before Mary. She was the mother from which Jesus' earthly body was birthed. That's all. She did not birth his divinity. He had that from eternity past.

This is a problem Jethro.
Here's how I understand this...

When we say the word GOD, everyone most probably understands us to be speaking about God Father.
God Father does not have a mother.

However, we want to say that Jesus is God.
If Jesus is God, how is it wrong to say that Mary is the mother of God?

This confuses me and how I feel about calling Mary the Mother of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is correct, Justification and salvation are not identical interchangeable terms. But what you are failing to realize is the justified person is saved. Your doctrine errs by saying the justified person then works in order to become a saved person. Catholicism is exactly the works gospel condemned in scripture. It is a religion for unbelievers who don't know better.

Is this what donadams states?

The CC teaches that a person is justified by faith alone.

They do believe that good works follow or there's a problem...
but don't we believe that too?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So you do not see God's grace through faith alone to all who will only believe in His only begotten Son Christ Jesus in whom was before the foundation of the world being that of God's free gift to the world in whom we have salvation through His finished works on the cross and now sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us.

This is salvation 101.

This is exactly why I feel completely comfortable in condemning Catholicism as a works gospel.

In Catholicism there is no such thing as a saved Catholic in this life. They believe you earn salvation at the end of this life by successful completion of repeated sacraments and works to the very end.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, it could have been taken to TWTS, but I feel his question needed to be answered for all to see. What we are asking is that donadams to quit making his post so long that it makes it hard to discuss with him, but I digress.

Maybe he's a new poster and hasn't quite figured it out....
I just told him exactly the same thing.

donadams you should make your posts shorter and try to concentrate and focus on what idea at a time.
(your all over the place!).

I think we're trying to help you to make the most of your posts...
so much gets lost because they're so long and cover such a wide range of topics in each post.
It's difficult to reply to you....

 

[for_his_glory]

Maybe he's a new poster and hasn't quite figured it out....
I just told him exactly the same thing.

donadams you should make your posts shorter and try to concentrate and focus on what idea at a time.
(your all over the place!).

I think we're trying to help you to make the most of your posts...
so much gets lost because they're so long and cover such a wide range of topics in each post.
It's difficult to reply to you....

He has been here long enough to know how many times the staff have told him to make his postings shorter and he refuses to comply, but let's move past this.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is exactly why I feel completely comfortable in condemning Catholicism as a works gospel.

In Catholicism there is no such thing as a saved Catholic in this life. They believe you earn salvation at the end of this life by successful completion of repeated sacraments and works to the very end.

But the NT does teach that we ATTAIN our salvation at the end of our life.

I dislike getting into the Greek, so here's a link:

That there is a future aspect to salvation is undeniable. Rom 5:9 makes it explicit. “Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved (σωθησομεθα) by him from the wrath of God” (see also 1 Thess 5:9-10). More importantly, because of its contextual proximity, is 1 Cor 1:18 where the continuous (or imperfective if you wish) participle σωζομενοις requires a present sense. “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (ESV). Surprisingly, most translations go with “who are being saved” here even if they say “are saved” in 15:2, but this is required by the obviously continuous “are perishing.”

So which is to be preferred? Thiselton says the commentaries are agreed that the continuous aspect “is to be explicated” as it “denotes what is done for them in the future,” and think this is best in this context. What would it mean if Paul said they “are” saved “if” they persevere? Not sure that makes sense. The necessity of perseverance and the meaning of the passage does not make sense if in fact the person’s salvation is in every way wholly accomplished in the past.
source: https://www.billmounce.com/monday-with-mounce/are-you-saved-or-are-you-being-saved”-1-cor-15-2


Also:

We were saved
2 Timothy 1:9

We are being saved
1 Corinthians 1:18

We will be saved
Romans 5:9-10

 

[for_his_glory]

This is exactly why I feel completely comfortable in condemning Catholicism as a works gospel.

In Catholicism there is no such thing as a saved Catholic in this life. They believe you earn salvation at the end of this life by successful completion of repeated sacraments and works to the very end.

That's the reason why I moved this thread to the Catholic Forum. He can argue his Roman Catholic doctrines in here.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If Jesus is God, how is it wrong to say that Mary is the mother of God?

Because Mary has nothing to do with the divinity of Jesus. He was that before, during, and after the time he inhabited the physical body he was birthed in through Mary.

'Mother of God' is an innacurate and meaningless, misguided, inflammatory phrase that Catholics use to distort and exaggerate Mary's role in the life of Jesus and the gospel. Frankly, I never knew how off the rails Catholicism was until I read Catholics defense of their religion in on line forums. I guess it is this ignorance of the real beliefs of Catholicism that we Protestants have so foolishy accepted them as just another strain of Christianity. It has almost nothing to do with real Christianity and I make no apology in saying it is a religion that appeals to unbelievers devoid of the Spirit.

Sorry, but not sorry. Those are my honest feelings about Catholicism. Knowing what I know now we should denounce and distance ourselves from it completely.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But the NT does teach that we ATTAIN our salvation at the end of our life.

I dislike getting into the Greek, so here's a link:

That there is a future aspect to salvation is undeniable. Rom 5:9 makes it explicit. “Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved (σωθησομεθα) by him from the wrath of God” (see also 1 Thess 5:9-10). More importantly, because of its contextual proximity, is 1 Cor 1:18 where the continuous (or imperfective if you wish) participle σωζομενοις requires a present sense. “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (ESV). Surprisingly, most translations go with “who are being saved” here even if they say “are saved” in 15:2, but this is required by the obviously continuous “are perishing.”

So which is to be preferred? Thiselton says the commentaries are agreed that the continuous aspect “is to be explicated” as it “denotes what is done for them in the future,” and think this is best in this context. What would it mean if Paul said they “are” saved “if” they persevere? Not sure that makes sense. The necessity of perseverance and the meaning of the passage does not make sense if in fact the person’s salvation is in every way wholly accomplished in the past.
source: https://www.billmounce.com/monday-with-mounce/are-you-saved-or-are-you-being-saved”-1-cor-15-2


Also:

We were saved
2 Timothy 1:9

We are being saved
1 Corinthians 1:18

We will be saved
Romans 5:9-10

There's nothing Greek about it. You are saved and have eternal life and have passed from death to life the moment you believe (John 5:24). What we await is our safe passage through the coming fire and our glorified bodies and our physical entry into the kingdom of God.

Now we both agree that this remains this way as long as we continue to believe. But that does not change the fact that we are indeed very much saved in this life while we wait for the rest of the promise, of which the Spirit is a down payment and surety of.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is this what donadams states?

The CC teaches that a person is justified by faith alone.

They do believe that good works follow or there's a problem...
but don't we believe that too?

That is what he says but resists the fact that he is indeed describing the very works gospel condemned in scripture. That's why I say it's a religion for unbelievers. They don't have the Spirit to be able to discern that they are working their way to heaven. Which is clearly known and condemned by people who have the Spirit and understand what it's like to have a Luke 18:13-14 salvation experience. And an Acts 10 experience, and a...

 

[donadams]

I guess that leaves out Christ crucified or even that of God's grace through faith. Better we all find a Priest and turn to the Roman Catholic Church or we are doomed to the lake of fire. It's no wonder Catholics aren't suppose to own or even read the Bible and why some masses, not all, are still done in Latin so no one knows what is being said.

Do you even see how ridicules this sounds and how you put a Priest or even the Pope above God as being the only ones who can give absolution for our sin and even after forgiving our sin, which BTW comes only by God as Jesus, not Mary, being our mediator before the Father (God).

You really need to keep your threads in the Catholic forum if you do not want others to come against your man made doctrines.

It’s biblical you simply misunderstood
We are talking about Christ
Christ a priest
Heb 7:17 heb 8:1
One mediator between God and man but anyone in the communion of saints can pray and intercede for each other
Christ gave his apostles (low priests) the power to absolve from sin Jn 20:21-23

Latin was the common language of the common people of Rome, (hidden) until the 20th century bibles were rare and expensive and most personal ole were illiterate that’s why Christ founded the church to teach and sanctify all men Matt 28:19

Thanks

 

[GodsGrace]

Because Mary has nothing to do with the divinity of Jesus. He was that before, during, and after the time he inhabited the physical body he was birthed in through Mary.

Jesus was divine BEFORE (during and after) the time He inhabited the body---
How could it be BEFORE?

He always existed as the Word.
Otherwise the JWs are right in that Jesus was created.

'Mother of God' is an innacurate and meaningless, misguided, inflammatory phrase that Catholics use to distort and exaggerate Mary's role in the life of Jesus and the gospel. Frankly, I never knew how off the rails Catholicism was until I read Catholics defense of their religion in on line forums. I guess it is this ignorance of the real beliefs of Catholicism that we Protestants have so foolishy accepted them as just another strain of Christianity. It has almost nothing to do with real Christianity and I make no apology in saying it is a religion that appeals to unbelievers devoid of the Spirit.

Sorry, but not sorry. Those are my honest feelings about Catholicism. Knowing what I know now we should denounce and distance ourselves from it completely.

The Catholics that decided that Mary was the Mother of God lived just after Jesus died.
It's not a modern invention.

Mary, the mother of the New Adam

Mary transmitted to Christ the entire human reality of Adam, so that he could become the new Adam, the Son of man, the « summary» of all men from the first.

Cf. IRENAEUS OF LYONS, Demonstration of the Apostolic Predication § 32
As a true mother, Mary guarantees that God assumed everything in us up to becoming "Son of man", so we are entirely assumed and entirely saved. As a divinely fecund Virgin, Mary guarantees that it was God who was born of her and that he really saves: with his divine power.

(cf. IRENAEUS OF LYONS, Against Heresies V, 19,1)

Irenaeus​

“The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God” (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus​

“[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth” (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).
source: https://www.catholic.com/tract/mary-mother-of-god


In looking up the above, I also came across the idea that if we do not accept that Mary is the Mother of God
it brings up the heresy of nestoreanism...Jesus is divided into two separate natures:
human and divine

It was decided at about the same time when the Trinity was being discussed, that Jesus is 100% human and 100% divine.

Next thing you know, we'll be debating His divinity...

 

[for_his_glory]

But the NT does teach that we ATTAIN our salvation at the end of our life.

What about Luke 19:1-10; John 3:5-7; Ephesians 2:8; Matthew 24:13, Philippians 2:12 that all speak about our salvation as we are to endure all trials and tribulations unto the end and then we will be saved from the lake of fire.

 

[for_his_glory]

It’s biblical you simply misunderstood
We are talking about Christ
Christ a priest
Heb 7:17 heb 8:1
One mediator between God and man but anyone in the communion of saints can pray and intercede for each other
Christ gave his apostles (low priests) the power to absolve from sin Jn 20:21-23

Latin was the common language of the common people of Rome, (hidden) until the 20th century bibles were rare and expensive and most personal ole were illiterate that’s why Christ founded the church to teach and sanctify all men Matt 28:19

Thanks

It's time for me to walk away from this. You are not going to convince anyone to accept the doctrines of what you place in here so you have a good evening and God bless.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus was divine BEFORE (during and after) the time He inhabited the body---
How could it be BEFORE?

Colossians 1:16-17
16All things were created through Him and for Him.

17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Him being "before all things" means he's not created, and, furthermore, Him creating all things before there were all things indicates to me that is very much divine.

I don't know the nature of his body before he took on the form of a mortal body, but it's clear he is divinity sent from heaven to dwell in a body like ours and the purpose of becoming like us as the Bible explains.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He always existed as the Word.
Otherwise the JWs are right in that Jesus was created.

Since He created all things for Himself that tells me he existed as a conscious entity, not just as the Word.

The only thing created, or made about him is when he emptied himself of his authority and took on the form of a servant in the likeness of man:

Philippians 2:7-8
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Catholics that decided that Mary was the Mother of God lived just after Jesus died.
It's not a modern invention.

Yes, I'm aware of this.
I'm of the opinion that the founding fathers are the fulfillment of Acts 20:29. I used to respect them. Now I despise what they did to the church.

Mary, the mother of the New Adam

Mary transmitted to Christ the entire human reality of Adam, so that he could become the new Adam, the Son of man, the « summary» of all men from the first.

Cf. IRENAEUS OF LYONS, Demonstration of the Apostolic Predication § 32
As a true mother, Mary guarantees that God assumed everything in us up to becoming "Son of man", so we are entirely assumed and entirely saved. As a divinely fecund Virgin, Mary guarantees that it was God who was born of her and that he really saves: with his divine power.

(cf. IRENAEUS OF LYONS, Against Heresies V, 19,1)

Irenaeus​

“The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God” (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus​

“[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth” (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).
source: https://www.catholic.com/tract/mary-mother-of-god


In looking up the above, I also came across the idea that if we do not accept that Mary is the Mother of God
it brings up the heresy of nestoreanism...Jesus is divided into two separate natures:
human and divine

I submit to you that saying Mary is the mother of God is absolutely meaningless. It means nothing. What does it mean, 'mother of God'? How incredibly un-useful! She was the birth mother of the physical body that Jesus inhabited in order for Him to become like us for the purpose of becoming a merciful and faithful High Priest familiar with the temptations and weaknesses of humanity. God has no birth, no beginning, no end. Mary did not birth God.

It was decided at about the same time when the Trinity was being discussed, that Jesus is 100% human and 100% divine.

Next thing you know, we'll be debating His divinity...

A debate I will not engage in. I may or may not state why I believe he's divine and then I'm out. A person either gets it or they don't. And it doesn't change anything in regard to salvation if they don't.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's time for me to walk away from this. You are not going to convince anyone to accept the doctrines of what you place in here so you have a good evening and God bless.

I find Catholic doctrine to be truly exasperating. So much so I usually have to take a break from discussing it, too.