How to defend the trinity!

[Grailhunter]

I am well aware of the history and reject that verse as a late addition, although it doesn't actually disagree with nature of God as given in the Bible.

The Bible shows by scripture and storyline of 3 Gods.

Yet, the foundations of the doctrine of the Trinity have been in extant writings since the second century. That it took until the 4th century to come up with a formal definition should surprise no one, given the complexity which requires much formal discussion. And until Christianity was accepted as a legitimate religion, the church faced persecution. Then came the need to define the nature of Christ, which naturally leads to defining the nature of God. That the word Trinity does not appear in the Bible is a non-issue.

It only existed as an understanding as a Godhead. No one was saying Yeshua was God the Father and the Apostles usually made a distinction between the two.

 

[Free]

Which exists simultaneously in an unexplainable spiritual condition of union, that allows for the sharing of traits, principles, powers and abilities, but prevents any possibility of disagreement. Still, this being true, they have their own individual presence, minds, wills, and characters. Three Gods that can sit side by side on three thrones. (I am not going to address spiritual thrones thing, it is just referenced that way in the Bible.) The Trinity makes sense, the scriptures that describe Them, make sense. The following discussion includes scriptures that speak of the Trinity as it is referenced in the Gospels. So we are going to put this in motion and as with reality and the truth, it will move through the story of Christ’s mission in the Gospels.

First you say the Trinity is false and now you are arguing for the Trinity. The problem is that you define the Trinity in your own terms. It's no different than what Mormons do.

The best example of the Trinity we have is how the three Gods interacted with each other during the Gospels.

That's an example of polytheism which God himself denies. Yahweh says he knows of no other God, that he is the only one, that there wasn't one before him and there will not be one after him.

What they said to each other and about each other. Much of the proof comes from the lips of Christ Himself as He describes Himself and His Father as two persons in two different places. Father and Son. Keeping in mind that it is very important to Christianity that Christ is the Son of God the Father.

This is in full agreement with the historic, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, for which I provided the three foundations.

1. If Christ’s throne is on the right hand of God, He is not within God and that position although important is second to God the Father. Mark 16:19 “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into Heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”

2. If one had to leave before the other could come, as in the case of the Holy Spirit, this would suggest individuality.

3. If there is any conversation at all between the three entities; that would indicate some individuality.

4. If the conversation included a request, like Yeshua asking His Father to bypass the cup (so-to-speak); it indicates individuality and hierarchy.

5. If the conversation is in the form of a pray. For example; Our Father which art in Heaven.....But the Son was standing before them. This indicates individuality and hierarchy.

...

14. There is not a single verse that would indicate or suggest that God the Father was crucified, or that they were crucified together, or that all three were crucified. Christ the God was crucified and ascended to His Father and took his place on a throne...at the right hand of His Father, His God, God Almighty. The storyline does not suggest that Christ is talking to Himself when He is talking to His Father.

15. Matthew 20:20….Mark 10:35…When asked by the mother of John and James if they could sit on the right and the left of Christ in the kingdom to come, One of the things Christ said to her (them) was “....this is not Mine to give....” This would indicate that it was someone else’s to give...another God...Not Himself and higher authority. This point is further exemplified by John 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and hath given all things into His hands. John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come forth from God, and was going back to God; >>> Definitely defining two persons, giving and receiving occurs between two persons and so does coming from and going back to. These verses indicate hierarchy and individuality. God the Father had the authority to give, you will never see where Yeshua gave authority to His Father.

16. If the conversation includes an element of surprise, like when Yeshua was on the cross and asked His Father why He had forsaken Him. This would be strong evidence of individuality.

17. If the conversation indicates disparity of location and movement between the two deities, such as ascended to my Father, I came forth from the Father, or was sent by the Father, or because I go to the Father, this would all indicate individuality, hierarchy, and different location.

18. If one knows something that the other does not, like in Matt. 24:36 where Yeshua said, He did not know when the “end of the age” would occur, only the Father knew. This definitely indicates individuality and is conclusive proof that we are not talking about a single mind.

19. If the Son was sent by the Father. This indicates individuality and hierarchy of authority. One person sent somewhere by another. You will never read that Yeshua sent the Father anywhere.

20. If Christ said, (John 5:30) “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.” The statement regarding the will of the one Who sent Him, occurs in other verses. John 6:38 & 39 Matt 12:50. Then there is Mark 14:36 “And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.” This is a request from one person to another of higher authority and a designation of two separate wills... “not what I will, but what thou wilt.” The wills and minds of two Gods, clearly defined in words and actions with a clear show of respect from Son to Father agreeing to subject Himself to the will of the Father.

21. The Apostle’s Creed defines God the Father as the creator of Heaven and Earth....not Christ....not the Holy Spirit, and not the three of them.

22. And Christ said this while He walked the earth...But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:33 God the Father and God the Son. Two persons in two different places and the Son denying someone before His Father.

These all suggest, again, that you do not understand the historic, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. There is nothing here that proves it false. And there is certainly nothing that proves your polytheism correct; nothing will.

When is the appearance of hierarchy seen? When Jesus walks the earth. As I said before, Phil 2:5-8 is absolutely key. This leads to the differentiation scholars make between the ontological Trinity and the economic Trinity. The ontological Trinity is the nature of the Trinity in and of itself, how God has always existed. The economic Trinity has to do with each person's role within history regarding creation and the salvation of humans and redemption of creation. Only within the understanding of the economic Trinity is there an appearance of hierarchy, which is actually just a difference in function.

I will also address this point specifically: 21. The Apostle’s Creed defines God the Father as the creator of Heaven and Earth....not Christ....not the Holy Spirit, and not the three of them.

Heb 1:10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end." (ESV)

This is the Father speaking of the Son(vs 8). But that is a quote from Psalm 102:

Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end. (ESV)

This is speaking of Yahweh. So, again, it becomes very important to define who Yahweh is. Even then, you say that the Father alone is creator, yet here the Father is saying the Son created.

 

[Free]

The scriptures define all that clearly....you just have to read them.

Again, this is against the ToS. Please don't make such statements again.

 

[Grailhunter]

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
…
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."
...
Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
...
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
...
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isa 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
Isa 48:13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

It's a curious thing that God himself says he is the only God, yet you say he isn't. I had asked, but I don't think you answered: Who is Yahweh?

You are defining a double edged sword here.
Yes Yahweh was the only God in the Old Testament.
Now you have 3.

 

[Grailhunter]

Again, this is against the ToS. Please don't make such statements again.

I will make that statement anytime I want to.....all I am tell you to do is read.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are defining a double edged sword here.
Yes Yahweh was the only God in the Old Testament.
Now you have 3.

Hey B,
It's nice to see you here.
Be nice. We moderate this forum!
I'll be checking in later on.
Can't remember what you believe about the Trinity...

 

[GodsGrace]

I will make that statement anytime I want to.....all I am tell you to do is read.

Free reads a lot.
Please read the TOS before you continue to post.
I hope you stay. The Board has become kind of weird.
We're trying to avoid that here.
Welcome!!

 

[Grailhunter]

Free reads a lot.
Please read the TOS before you continue to post.
I hope you stay. The Board has become kind of weird.
We're trying to avoid that here.
Welcome!!

Salutations
I don't have to post on this forum.....but I am not going to play slap your hand games with people.

 

[Johann!@#]

Salutations
I don't have to post on this forum.....but I am not going to play slap your hand games with people.

Fearless-this Forum is kind of weird-a healthy, constructive iron sharpens iron debate between members is not is not welcomed Grailhunter.
heck-I'm surprised I am still here.
J.

 

[Free]

Funny question.
As I said before, I believe in…
God the Father…Yahweh…God Almighty…Creator of Heaven and Earth and Adam and Eve.
God the Son…Yeshua…the Son of God…Messiah…Savior.
The Holy Spirit…the unnamed God…helper…guide… teacher… strengthener.
Pretty much along the lines of the Apostles Creed.

Not really. You have inserted "Yahweh" as the name of God the Father only. Yet, as I have pointed out, Heb 1 has the Father attributing a Psalm about Yahweh to the Son. This is inline with what Paul says in Rom 10:9-13:

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (ESV)

Paul equates confessing "Jesus is Lord" with a quote from Joel 2:32, that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved." That is, Jesus is also Yahweh. It is the only logical conclusion.

Even though the word Trinity is not in the scriptures, I do believe in the Trinity as described by the scriptures. Tri-unity...Not Tri-one.

Polytheism is not in the scriptures. Therefore, your definition of the Trinity is not that given in the scriptures.

Not really the storyline of the Gospels show Yahweh and Yeshua interacting in different ways as individuals.

From Genesis 1:1 through to the end of Revelation, the Bible is consistent in stating that there is only one God. That there are three divine persons is precisely the reason for the historic, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity; a basic version of which I give below.

Then you have the way Yeshua refers to His Father.....God the Father knew when the end would come and Yeshua did not...When the mother of James and John asked that her two sons may sit, one at Your right side and one at Your left side......Christ answered...But the places at My right side and at My left side are not Mine to give. The Son ascends to the Father…. Just few of many instances. Separate presence and separate minds, one loves the other they are not loving themselves.....They have conversations....they are not talking to themselves....it is all in the write up.

Again, this is all fully inline with the historic, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. It cannot support your personal definition of the Trinity as there is, was, and every will be only one God. God himself says so.

polytheism? How many names are there.....understand a God with three aspects is strictly Pagan.

What are you saying here?

Not His beloved self.

That was your argument against the Trinity, but as I stated, that's an argument against Modalism.

If you have your own definition of the Trinity, lets hear it.

I have already provided the three basic foundations of the historic, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. So, the definition I give is not my own:

Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (James R. White, The Forgotten Trinity, p. 26)

That is what the Councils confirmed and what the Creeds confirm.

Well of course I disagree.

Yet, I have shown that to be the case. Your argument against the historic, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is a straw man based on Modalism.

Well again I disagree. One true God...1. Yahweh God the Father 2. Yeshua God the Son 3. God the Holy Spirit = 3 Shock shock

Yet, Yahweh himself repeatedly states there is no other God, that there never was and never will be. There is only one God. That is absolutely as foundational to Christianity as it is to Judaism. Christianity is a continuation of the Jewish story, so monotheism is not something that would change.

 

[Grailhunter]

Fearless-this Forum is kind of weird-a healthy, constructive iron sharpens iron debate between members is not is not welcomed Grailhunter.
heck-I'm surprised I am still here.
J.

No harm no foul! But slaping someone's hand because they are losing a debate is not going to fly for me.

 

[Free]

I don't have to post on this forum.....but I am not going to play slap your hand games with people.

No, you don't. We promote a biblical style of discussion here.

No harm no foul! But slaping someone's hand because they are losing a debate is not going to fly for me.

That is not at all what is happening and will never happen here. Debating in a manner which is derogatory and unloving towards others is what gets one into trouble. It's all in the ToS and in the Policies Rules of this forum. Quite straightforward.

 

[Johann!@#]

No harm no foul! But slaping someone's hand because they are losing a debate is not going to fly for me.

No one is really here to "win" a debate, my personal opinion, but when there is a disagreement with the Mods and Admins things can go ugly, quickly-they should leave the members alone to be like Bereans-think I now know why this is not a very "active" Forum.
Now watch-OFF TOPIC!!
Shalom brother-think I know you from another Forum.
An aside-the Triune Godhead did not begin with Christianity.
J.

 

[GodsGrace]

In your biblical studies when you come across theological words, phrases, and or slogans that are not in the scriptures, that is a red flag for false beliefs. Because 99% of the time they are items that someone in the past that were promulgating a belief that is false or misleading. It is like modern advertising….catchy words and phrases. Like Unleaded Gas….“Unleaded gas was more expensive because they have to take the lead out.” That is a lie, they had to add lead as a lubricant.

1. In this case the word Trinity is not in the scriptures.
2. The one God formula for the Trinity is a Catholic doctrine.
3. There are over a hundred scriptures that prove that the one God formula for the Trinity as false.

Hi Grailhunter,
There are many words that are not in scripture but that are necessary in order to speak about theology in a manner that all parties can understand. I'm more than sure that you know this.

I think it could be a red flag, OK, but that doesn't mean that it's not correct.
I wouldn't say it's catchy words like in advertising, but a way to make communication easier.

To say nothing of the fact that many phrases came up because of incorrect teachings in the Early Church.
For instance, Arius thought Jesus was a man. To combat this and other heresies about Jesus' nature, the Early Theologians had to get a solution and the solution was the hypostatic union.

Just obvious examples; In the Gospels there are several examples of God the Father and God the Son interacting. The New Testament refers to them as Father and Son and at the end of some of the letters/books the Apostles refer to God the Father as God and Christ as Lord in the same sentence. And Christ said, The Father is greater than I…..Christ refers to God the Father as His God and refers to His Father in Heaven. The will of the Father is referred to a few times in the Gospels and that Christ does the will of the Father.

When Jesus was on earth as THE SON OF GOD, He surely was interacting with the Father.
Could you explain how you understand
John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Also, could you explain how you understand the LOGOS?
(sorry another word that is not in the bible).

When Christ was baptized and came up out of the water, God said, This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased;….beloved Son…not beloved self. Was God pleased with Himself? He did not say, There I am getting baptized…..God the Son was baptized, not all three Gods.

God the Son ascended to God the Father and sat on the right hand of the Father….not in His lap.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life....Not gave His beloved self…..Again Father and Son.

Yes. Each member of the Trinity/Godhead has His very own work to do.
Jesus is the Savior of manking.
And GOD was always to be the savior of mankind, even in the OT.
Psalm 37:39
The salvation of the righteous is from the Lord; he is their stronghold in the time of trouble.
Ezekiel 34:16
“For thus says the Lord God: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out. ...

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Was Christ talking to Himself or His God? Who thinks that they crucified God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit?

He was speaking to God Father.
The 3 do speak among themselves.

 

[Grailhunter]

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

And this is the way the Apostles put to make a distiniction between the two. Referring to Yahweh as God and Yeshua as Lord. And Yeshua would pray to to Yahweh.

Polytheism is not in the scriptures. Therefore, your definition of the Trinity is not that given in the scriptures.

God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is defined all through the New Teatament. LOL

Again, this is all fully inline with the historic, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. It cannot support your personal definition of the Trinity as there is, was, and every will be only one God. God himself says so.

No this fully defines that you are wrong again.

What are you saying here?

Pretty clear.....
If you are a Jew three Gods would be a problem ,as a Christian we havee God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.....count them up. Do you notice all the ands.

 

[GodsGrace]

No one is really here to "win" a debate, my personal opinion, but when there is a disagreement with the Mods and Admins things can go ugly, quickly-they should leave the members alone to be like Bereans-think I now know why this is not a very "active" Forum.
Now watch-OFF TOPIC!!
Shalom brother-think I know you from another Forum.
An aside-the Triune Godhead did not begin with Christianity.
J.

Could you expound on your last sentence?

 

[Johann!@#]

That is not at all what is happening and will never happen here. Debating in a manner which is derogatory and unloving towards others is what gets one into trouble. It's all in the ToS and in the Policies Rules of this forum. Quite straightforward.

Grailhunter was not in any way, shape or form "derogatory" or unloving.
J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Salutations
I don't have to post on this forum.....but I am not going to play slap your hand games with people.

I don't know what slap your hand games is....
I know that we like to treat each other here with civility and respect.
If you do that, you can post what you wish.

 

[GodsGrace]

TO OUR NEW AND VERY WELCOMED MEMBERS

THIS IS THE APOLOGETICS FORUM AND NOT THE TALK WITH THE STAFF FORUM.

IF YOU HAVE MISGIVINGS PLEASE TAKE IT TO TALK WITH THE STAFF FOR PROPER DISCUSSION.

PLEASE RETURN TO THE TOPIC.
THANKS.

Johann!@#
Grailhunter

 

[Grailhunter]

That was your argument against the Trinity, but as I stated, that's an argument against Modalism.

Yes the one God formula for the Trinity is a lie.
Now since you decided to slap my hand earlier it is against my policy to tolerate such a thing so I will no longer discuss this with you.