How to defend the trinity!

[Johann!@#]

Could you expound on your last sentence?

I already have posted two video clips and posts on the Targums re the Trinity-that it was no invention of early Christians.
But since you ask so politely-

134,263 views Oct 8, 2016
Join us at: http://www.inspiringphilosophy.org

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Many Jewish thinkers have recognized there is Trinitarian evidence in the old testament and this video goes over these facts.

The Trinity in the Old Testament:

• The Trinity in the Old Testament


Sources:

Found JS - All about Betting

Soccer Betting Analysis - Get The Chance to find How Handicap Betting works in soccer betting

podcast.foundjs.org

The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel - Dr. Benjamin Sommer

http://www.biblestudying.net/trinity9...

Genesis, The JPS Torah Commentary - Nahum Sarna

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus - Dr. Michael Brown

The Works of Philo - Translated by C. D. Yonge

I don't have to repeat myself over and over again-Boss.
J.

 

[GodsGrace]

And this is the way the Apostles put to make a distiniction between the two. Referring to Yahweh as God and Yeshua as Lord. And Yeshua would pray to to Yahweh.

God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is defined all through the New Teatament. LOL


No this fully defines that you are wrong again.


Pretty clear.....
If you are a Jew three Gods would be a problem ,as a Christian we havee God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.....count them up. Do you notice all the ands.

The Apostles called Jesus God and had no problem.

Thomas said...My Lord and My God.
He included both.

Titus 2:13
13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Our great God and Savior
God and Savior
Jesus Christ

 

[Johann!@#]

TO OUR NEW AND VERY WELCOMED MEMBERS

THIS IS THE APOLOGETICS FORUM AND NOT THE TALK WITH THE STAFF FORUM.

IF YOU HAVE MISGIVINGS PLEASE TAKE IT TO TALK WITH THE STAFF FOR PROPER DISCUSSION.

PLEASE RETURN TO THE TOPIC.
THANKS.

Johann!@#
Grailhunter

LOUD AND CLEAR!
J.

 

[Grailhunter]

Hi Grailhunter,
There are many words that are not in scripture but that are necessary in order to speak about theology in a manner that all parties can understand. I'm more than sure that you know this.

I think it could be a red flag, OK, but that doesn't mean that it's not correct.
I wouldn't say it's catchy words like in advertising, but a way to make communication easier.

To say nothing of the fact that many phrases came up because of incorrect teachings in the Early Church.
For instance, Arius thought Jesus was a man. To combat this and other heresies about Jesus' nature, the Early Theologians had to get a solution and the solution was the hypostatic union.

I am going to hold to what I said....if the word or phrase does not appear in the scriptures it is a red flag because 99% of the time it is someone trying to promote a false belief. There is that 1% if it clearly stated in the scriptures.

When Jesus was on earth as THE SON OF GOD, He surely was interacting with the Father.
Could you explain how you understand
John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Also, could you explain how you understand the LOGOS?
(sorry another word that is not in the bible).

Oh that would be an interesting topic.....Maybe a thread?

Yes. Each member of the Trinity/Godhead has His very own work to do.
Jesus is the Savior of manking.
And GOD was always to be the savior of mankind, even in the OT.
Psalm 37:39
The salvation of the righteous is from the Lord; he is their stronghold in the time of trouble.
Ezekiel 34:16
“For thus says the Lord God: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out. ...

Another interesting topic.

He was speaking to God Father.
The 3 do speak among themselves.

Agreed.

 

[Grailhunter]

No one is really here to "win" a debate, my personal opinion, but when there is a disagreement with the Mods and Admins things can go ugly, quickly-they should leave the members alone to be like Bereans-think I now know why this is not a very "active" Forum.
Now watch-OFF TOPIC!!
Shalom brother-think I know you from another Forum.
An aside-the Triune Godhead did not begin with Christianity.
J.

You do know me from another forum.
I will talk to you on that forum.
God bless.

 

[Johann!@#]

You do know me from another forum.
I will talk to you on that forum.
God bless.

Shalom Achi/brother-I had to post the same video clip re the Trinity-that it was no invention from the early Christians-for about the 4th or 5th time now to a "wandering star"

Stay strong in Christ.
J.

 

[Grailhunter]

The Apostles called Jesus God and had no problem.

Thomas said...My Lord and My God.
He included both.

Titus 2:13
13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Our great God and Savior
God and Savior
Jesus Christ

I am not saying that the Apostles did not believe or know He was a God. It is a literary thing, when they were referring to both like at the end of some books/letters and other places they would refer to God the Father as God and Yeshua as Lord. All three are Gods. And in a debate the accuracy can be a little fuzzy. Although I am saying the scriptures prove by statement and storyline that there are 3 Gods I also believe there is a unity. But can we comprehend the functionality of that unity? Probably not.

 

[Free]

Yes the one God formula for the Trinity is a lie.

Not at all. It is soundly based on the very clear fact that God himself, Yahweh, said he knew of no other God. This is beyond disputing. Can you name one legitimate Christian scholar over the centuries who believed or believes that there is more than one God? Can you show where the Church, in any form, as accepted three gods as legitimate?

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him. (ESV)

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. (ESV)

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. (ESV)

This is as clear as any doctrine can get.

Now since you decided to slap my hand earlier it is against my policy to tolerate such a thing so I will no longer discuss this with you.

All we expect is Christlike, loving, civil discussion. I don't care what you do on other forums, but here derogatory remarks or things stated in a disrespectful or unloving way are not tolerated. Such things may result in removal from a discussion. I was only giving you fair warning since you're new.

 

[Johann!@#]

I don't know what slap your hand games is....
I know that we like to treat each other here with civility and respect.
If you do that, you can post what you wish.

And I would say the Mods and Admins should treat the new -bewildered-members with equal civility and respect-that is what "slap your hand game is"
Treat others the way YOU want to be treated-don't "Lord" it over the new-bewildered-emotionally scarred members-this is God's flock-not yours.
J.

 

[Free]

And I would say the Mods and Admins should treat the new -bewildered-members with equal civility and respect-that is what "slap your hand game is"
Treat others the way YOU want to be treated-don't "Lord" it over the new-bewildered-emotionally scarred members-

We are. I have simply been pointing to the ToS and the Policies and Rules of this forum. If people don't want their hand slapped, just abide by those things. The majority of people do. We aren't going to let these forums go downhill into ungodly behaviour like other forums.

this is God's flock-not yours.
J.

No one has said or implied otherwise.

If you have any further questions or want to discuss this further, please post in the Talk With The Staff Forum. This is not the place.

 

[Johann!@#]

The majority of people do. We aren't going to let these forums go downhill into ungodly behaviour like other forums.

There is no ungodly behavior here-this is a virtual online Internet Forum-and the rules are stifling freedom of speech-allow the members to freely discuss-with the others, in a civilized manner to BE like Bereans.

 

[GodsGrace]

I already have posted two video clips and posts on the Targums re the Trinity-that it was no invention of early Christians.
But since you ask so politely-

134,263 views Oct 8, 2016
Join us at: http://www.inspiringphilosophy.org

To help support this ministry click here: https://www.patreon.com/inspiringphil...

Many Jewish thinkers have recognized there is Trinitarian evidence in the old testament and this video goes over these facts.

The Trinity in the Old Testament:

• The Trinity in the Old Testament


Sources:

Found JS - All about Betting

Soccer Betting Analysis - Get The Chance to find How Handicap Betting works in soccer betting

podcast.foundjs.org

The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel - Dr. Benjamin Sommer

http://www.biblestudying.net/trinity9...

Genesis, The JPS Torah Commentary - Nahum Sarna

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus - Dr. Michael Brown

The Works of Philo - Translated by C. D. Yonge

I don't have to repeat myself over and over again-Boss.
J.

Thanks Johann.
Lots of info.
(I don't see each of your posts).

 

[Johann!@#]

Thanks Johann.
Lots of info.
(I don't see each of your posts).

My apologies then sister.
I am just a PM away-always here 24/7
J.

 

[GodsGrace]

My apologies then sister.
I am just a PM away-always here 24/7
J.

No problem brother.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Father God and Son God....notice the and....these designations were defined by God.
I am well verse with logic, it you were, you would understand what I wrote.
You have to deny a lot of scriptures and the storyline to think that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit equals one.
That is a long write up with a lot of scriptures. I recommend that you study them hard.

How can someone "well verse with logic" not see the fallacies "screaming out" in this statement:

"The problem with the one God formula for the Trinty is that as a whole the scriptures as well as the storyline of the Gospels do not support the one God formula. The Gospels clearly show the Father and Son interacting throughout Christ’s ministry."-Grailhunter

Circular Reasoning Fallacy: That assumes as True the Divine Persons in Infinite God cannot commune as Father Son and Holy Spirit which is what it is claiming to prove True.

False Dichotomy fallacy: Statement presents the situation Divine Persons in One Substance can't interact as Father and Son and still be One God. The cited examples of such communication, is Scriptural proof God can!!!

Straw Man Fallacy: It misrepresents Trinitarian Doctrine "One God" = "One Person" and therefore two Persons speaking means one is not God.

Oversimplification Fallacy: The complex doctrine of the Holy Trinity which includes the addition of human nature to
God the Son isn't considered in your statement.

Hasty Generalization Fallacy: The selected evidence left out direct statements God the Father and God the Son are "One"

Ignorance of Subject Fallacy: Statement reflects a lack of understanding of the complexities and nuances in Trinitarian Doctrine

False Analogy: Christs interacting with God His Father in His human nature is not comparable to what He can do in His Divine Nature, just as the Holy Spirit appearing as a dove at Christ's baptism doesn't define mean the Holy Spirit is not God.

Christ added to Himself fully human nature, was born, ate, drank, died...just as humans do. It is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent to claim such activities prove He cannot be God the Son in Holy Trinity with the Father and the Holy Spirit.


Everyone who has dealt with a Jehovah's Witness quickly learns they have a "logic that seems right", backing up everything they claim. But the end thereof is death, because its all predicated upon subtle logical fallacies the JWs don't see.

That's why I took the time to learn informal logic, because for a time I believed everything they said, hook line and sinker. I thank God He led me to read "Apostles of Denial" by EC Gruss, and Acts 13:2 which caused my eyes to open, and realize an "impersonal active force" cannot command the disciples, using personal pronouns "I" and "Me"; Only a Person can do so:

As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." (Acts 13:2 NKJ)

 

[Free]

And this is the way the Apostles put to make a distiniction between the two. Referring to Yahweh as God and Yeshua as Lord. And Yeshua would pray to to Yahweh.

But that is not what is being said in Rom 10:9-13 nor in Heb 1:10-13. In the former, calling on the name of Jesus is to call on the name of Yahweh. In the latter, the Father is saying the Son is Yahweh.

God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is defined all through the New Teatament. LOL

Of course they are, and that fully agrees with the definition of the Trinity I have given, but polytheism is outright rejected by Yahweh himself. Christianity is the continuing Jewish story and so is monotheistic at the core. That the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are always kept distinct throughout the NT, and all are in some way said to be God in nature, combined with the clear biblical fact that there is only one God, is precisely why the doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that God reveals of himself in the Bible.

We cannot, as JWs do, use verses about Jesus's humanity to trump and so reinterpret those of his deity. We also cannot use those of his deity to trump and reinterpret those of his humanity, as in Gnosticism, Docetism, Apollinarianism, and Monophysitism. We also cannot let the clear verses about the plurality within God trump and reinterpret those that clearly state there was, is, and ever will be only one God, as you and the Mormons do.

Everything has to be taken as a whole and made sense of, otherwise we are divorcing passages from scripture, and the meaning is changed. If we begin at the wrong starting point, we'll end up at the wrong endpoint. There is only one God, but within that one God there is a plurality of three "persons."

No this fully defines that you are wrong again.

Then please provide evidence. You have yet to provide anything that shows the historic, orthodox Trinity as I have given it, is false. Can you provide something from even one legitimate Christian scholar who says there are three Gods?

Pretty clear.....
If you are a Jew three Gods would be a problem ,as a Christian we havee God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.....count them up. Do you notice all the ands.

Again, Christianity is the continuation of the Jewish story, with Jesus and the vast majority of first Christians being Jews. Yet not a single one of them states there are three Gods, and they wouldn't, because they are Jews. That is the irony. You have stated several times that the word Trinity isn't in the Bible, yet you argue to a trinity of your own definition by saying there are three Gods, which not only isn't stated in the Bible, God himself clearly denies that is the case.

 

[Grailhunter]

For those that want to know the Truth about the Trinity read Posts 663-667.

I entered college at the young age of 15 and have spent most of my life in formal schooling in 5 countries.
I call my ministry the Johnny Appleseed of Truth.
Johnny Appleseed because I use Christ’s approach to sharing the True Gospel in the casting to seeds. Matthew 13:1-45 From there it is up to God and you. The Truth will set you free.

Listen, my sons, to a father’s instruction; pay attention and gain understanding.
I give you sound learning, so do not forsake my teaching. For I too was a son to my father, still tender, and cherished by my mother. Then he taught me, and he said to me, “Take hold of my words with all your heart; keep my commands, and you will live. Get wisdom, get understanding; do not forget my words or turn away from them. Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Cherish her, and she will exalt you; embrace her, and she will honor you. She will give you a garland to grace your head and present you with a glorious crown.” Proverbs 4:1-9

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 1:7

 

[Free]

For those that want to know the Truth about the Trinity read Posts 663-667.

And then read the refutations of those posts. There is likely no legitimate scholar or theologian in Christian history that believes the Bible teaches there are three Gods in the Godhead. I asked for scholarly support for that assertion and nothing has been given; I'm not going to hold my breath either. That's because there is one and only one God, as God himself says many times. No true understanding of God can ignore that.

I entered college at the young age of 15 and have spent most of my life in formal schooling in 5 countries.

Pro 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. (ESV)

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, (ESV)

There are Bible scholars with doctorates that don't understand the truth of scripture. Education is valuable, but it is worthless without humility.

 

[Grailhunter]

The history of the concepts of the Trinity

The first of the early Church Fathers to be recorded using the word "Trinity" was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late 2nd century but he did not explain his beliefs in detail.

Next was Tertullian and his beliefs in regard to the Trinity
Tertullian, was born around 150–160 AD. He defended his concepts of the Trinity and he explicitly "defined" the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended his theology against Praxeas, although he noted that the majority of the believers in his day found issue with his doctrine.

Against the common believers concerned with monotheism, Tertullian's beliefs gives little comfort because he argued that although the above process results in two more who could be called “Gods” it does not introduce two more Gods - not Gods in the sense that Yahweh is a God. His belief was that there is still, as there can only be, one ultimate source of all else, the Father.

From these words, one can deduce that Tertullian was an advocate of a hierarchical system in the Trinity, with the Father as the source and the Son and Holy Spirit as his emanations, being second and third. And he never expressed the “one person” concepts developed in the 4th century.

Although early Christian theologians speculated in many ways on the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, no one clearly and fully asserted the doctrine of the Trinity as being “one” until the 4th century with the Ecumenical Councils of the Roman Catholic Church.

Did the Council of Nicaea create the concept of the Trinity?
The Council of Nicaea, the first ecumenical debate held by the early Christian church, concluded with the establishment of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and the formula being three “persons” being one God.

Why was the “one person” concept so important?
The leaders of the early Christian churches (congregations) gathered in Nicaea to more or less standardize Christian beliefs. The driving force behind this was Emperor Constantine who ordered and financed the gathering. No surprise, standardization was the Roman way. And I want to mention that it took great courage for the Christian leaders to assemble because some came limping and had missing appendages from the Christian persecutions.

But they were not in agreement on many things and some of these arguments were strong enough that an answer had to be found. As it turns out the one God formula silenced a lot of the disagreements. Silenced, because the belief in this doctrine was mandatory upon pain of excommunication or death as a heretic which was handled by the empire as an enemy of the state. The Catholic Church still asserts that you cannot be a Christian unless you believe in the "one person/one God" aspect of the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity

So what is the Trinity really about?
I contend that the Trinity is three Gods in unity with Yahweh being the supreme God and no one like Him. Actually it is the construct of the unity that is the legitimate discussion. This discussion is speculative because the exact construct of this unity may be beyond our comprehension. And with that in mind I suggest that it is possible that part of the unity is because of the perfection of the intellect of all three Gods, in that they think alike, so consequently will never disagree with each other.

 

[JLB]

In your biblical studies when you come across theological words, phrases, and or slogans that are not in the scriptures, that is a red flag for false beliefs.