How to defend the trinity!

[JLB]

That's because there is one and only one God, as God himself says many times.

The scriptures teach that God is one.


Teaching that the Son is not God, or the Holy Spirit is not God, is not scriptural.

 

[Free]

The scriptures teach that God is one.


Teaching that the Son is not God, or the Holy Spirit is not God, is not scriptural.

I agree. That is why I have never taught that neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit are not God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

For those that want to know the Truth about the Trinity read Posts 663-667.

I entered college at the young age of 15 and have spent most of my life in formal schooling in 5 countries.

With so much formal schooling and spending your life in ministry its odd you haven't published a "point by point" rebuttal of the main Systematic Theologies asserting Scripture reveals Infinite God subsists in Three Divine Persons.

For example, you should be able to show the link where the following Systematic Theology by Louis Berkhoff is clearly refuted:


2. SCRIPTURAL PROOF FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY. The doctrine of the Trinity is very decidedly a doctrine of revelation. It is true that human reason may suggest some thoughts to substantiate the doctrine, and that men have sometimes on purely philosophical grounds abandoned the idea of a bare unity in God, and introduced the idea of living movement and self-distinction. And it is also true that Christian experience would seem to demand some such construction of the doctrine of God. At the same time it is a doctrine which we would not have known, nor have been able to maintain with any degree of confidence, on the basis of experience alone, and which is brought to our knowledge only by God’s special self-revelation. Therefore it is of the utmost importance that we gather the Scriptural proofs for it.

a. Old Testament proofs. Some of the early Church Fathers and even some later theologians, disregarding the progressive character of God’s revelation, gave the impression that the doctrine of the Trinity was completely revealed in the Old Testament. On the other hand Socinians and Arminians were of the opinion that it was not found there at all. Both were mistaken. The Old Testament does not contain a full revelation of the trinitarian existence of God, but does contain several indications of it. And this is exactly what might be expected. The Bible never deals with the doctrine of the Trinity as an abstract truth, but reveals the trinitarian life in its various relations as a living reality, to a certain extent in connection with the works of creation and providence, but particularly in relation to the work of redemption. Its most fundamental revelation is a revelation given in facts rather than in words. And this revelation increases in clarity in the measure in which the redemptive work of God is more clearly revealed, as in the incarnation of the Son and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. And the more the glorious reality of the Trinity stands out in the facts of history, the clearer the statements of the doctrine become. The fuller revelation of the Trinity in the New Testament is due to the fact that the Word became flesh, and that the Holy Spirit took up His abode in the Church.
Proof for the Trinity has sometimes been found in the distinction of Jehovah and Elohim, and also in the plural Elohim, but the former is entirely unwarranted, and the latter is, to say the least, very dubious, though Rottenberg still maintains it in his work on De Triniteit in Israels Godsbegrip.1 It is far more plausible that the passages in which God speaks of Himself in the plural, Gen. 1:26; 11:7, contain an indication of personal distinctions in God, though even these do not point to a trinity but only to a plurality of persons. Still clearer indications of such personal distinctions are found in those passages which refer to the Angel of Jehovah, who is on the one hand identified with Jehovah, and on the other hand distinguished from Him, Gen. 16:7–13; 18:1–21; 19:1–28; Mal. 3:1; and also in passages in which the Word or Wisdom of God is personified, Ps. 33:4, 6; Prov. 8:12–31. In some cases more than one person is mentioned, Ps. 33:6; 45:6, 7 (comp. Heb. 1:8, 9), and in others God is the speaker, and mentions both the Messiah and the Spirit, or the Messiah is the speaker who mentions both God and the Spirit, Isa. 48:16; 61:1; 63:9, 10. Thus the Old Testament contains a clear anticipation of the fuller revelation of the Trinity in the New Testament.

b. New Testament proofs. The New Testament carries with it a clearer revelation of the distinctions in the Godhead. If in the Old Testament Jehovah is represented as the Redeemer and Saviour of His people, Job. 19:25; Ps. 19:14; 78:35; 106:21; Isa. 41:14; 43:3, 11, 14; 47:4; 49:7, 26; 60:16; Jer. 14:3; 50:14; Hos. 13:3, in the New Testament the Son of God clearly stands out in that capacity, Matt. 1:21; Luke 1:76–79; 2:17; John 4:42; Acts 5:3; Gal. 3:13; 4:5; Phil. 3:20; Tit. 2:13, 14. And if in the Old Testament it is Jehovah that dwells among Israel and in the hearts of those that fear Him, Ps. 74:2; 135:21; Isa. 8:18; 57:15; Ezek. 43:7–9; Joel 3:17, 21; Zech. 2:10, 11, in the New Testament it is the Holy Spirit that dwells in the Church, Acts 2:4, Rom. 8:9, 11; 1 Cor. 3:16; Gal. 4:6; Eph. 2:22; Jas. 4:5. The New Testament offers the clear revelation of God sending His Son into the world, John 3:16; Gal. 4:4; Heb. 1:6; 1 John 4:9; and of both the Father and the Son, sending the Spirit, John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7; Gal. 4:6. We find the Father addressing the Son, Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22, the Son communing with the Father, Matt. 11:25, 26; 26:39; John 11:41; 12:27, 28, and the Holy Spirit praying to God in the hearts of believers, Rom. 8:26. Thus the separate persons of the Trinity are made to stand out clearly before our minds. At the baptism of the Son the Father speaks from heaven, and the Holy Spirit descends in the form of a dove, Matt. 3:16, 17. In the great commission Jesus mentions the three persons: “… baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matt. 28:19. They are also named alongside of each other in 1 Cor. 12:4–6; 2 Cor. 13:14; and 1 Peter 1:2. The only passage speaking of tri-unity is 1 John 5:7 (Auth. Ver.), but this is of doubtful genuineness, and is therefore eliminated from the latest critical editions of the New Testament.


1 pp. 19ff.

Berkhof, L. (1938). Systematic theology (pp. 85–86). Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co.

HC Thiessen's list of proofs offers much more than Berkhof, but 10,000 character limitations prevented my posting it. Here is an excerpt of his treatment:

h. Christ’s own consciousness and claims as proofs of his deity. At the age of twelve he recognized the peculiar claims of his Father (Luke 2:49), at his baptism he was assured of his special sonship (Matt. 3:17), in the Sermon on the Mount he set himself over against the ancients (Matt. 5:21f., 27f., 33–36), when he sent forth the disciples he gave them power to perform miracles (Matt. 10:1, 8; Luke 10:9, 19), he asserted his pre-existence (John 8:58; 17:5), he requested that prayer be offered in his name (John 16:23f.), he claimed that he and the Father were one (John 10:30; 14:9; 17:11), and he claimed that he was the Son of God (John 10:36). Logic seems to demand that he either is what he knew himself to be and what he claimed to be, or that he is unfit to be recognized at all.

Thiessen, H. C., & Doerksen, V. D. (1979). Lectures in systematic theology (p. 96). William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[GodsGrace]

For those that want to know the Truth about the Trinity read Posts 663-667.

I entered college at the young age of 15 and have spent most of my life in formal schooling in 5 countries.
I call my ministry the Johnny Appleseed of Truth.
Johnny Appleseed because I use Christ’s approach to sharing the True Gospel in the casting to seeds. Matthew 13:1-45 From there it is up to God and you. The Truth will set you free.

Listen, my sons, to a father’s instruction; pay attention and gain understanding.
I give you sound learning, so do not forsake my teaching. For I too was a son to my father, still tender, and cherished by my mother. Then he taught me, and he said to me, “Take hold of my words with all your heart; keep my commands, and you will live. Get wisdom, get understanding; do not forget my words or turn away from them. Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Cherish her, and she will exalt you; embrace her, and she will honor you. She will give you a garland to grace your head and present you with a glorious crown.” Proverbs 4:1-9

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 1:7

Hi Grailhunter,
We both know some history, don't we?

There were so many heresies running rampant in the early church.
I'm happy the CC was there to refute them and to create doctrine that we can follow to this day.

It wasn't easy to arrive at the Council of Nicea in order to declare, once and for all, exactly WHO or WHAT Jesus was.

As you know, there were 5 major areas that had a Bishop (or Papa, Pope) at the beginning.
Every area was trying to be united, but different ideas did emerge at times, and the church wanted to have only ONE belief regarding Jesus so that the entire church could be united in its belief system.

This was concerning Christology. Some believed Jesus was a man that grew up in Nazareth.
Some believed he was divine.
When did He become divine?
When God proclaimed Him His Son at Jesus' baptism? - The heresy of adoptionism.
When He was born?
Before He was born?

It was imperative that his be decided.
The question is:
Are we to accept what the church decided on and accepted and taught...
or should we still be debating this 2,000 years later?

The JW believe Jesus to be a created being.
Are we JW? This is the heresy of arianism.

Docetism taught that Jesus was divine and only appeared to have a body...
thus denying His sacrifice on the cross.

Apollonarianism lessened the human nature of Jesus.

There's much more but the above is sufficient.

source: https://www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/historic-heresies-related-to-the-nature-of-jesus.html

At the Council of Nicaea it was decided exactly who or what Jesus was.

First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Jesus was from the beginning and was God.


Why is this difficult for some to understand?

John 1:1 explains Jesus perfectly.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[GodsGrace]

The history of the concepts of the Trinity

The first of the early Church Fathers to be recorded using the word "Trinity" was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late 2nd century but he did not explain his beliefs in detail.

Next was Tertullian and his beliefs in regard to the Trinity
Tertullian, was born around 150–160 AD. He defended his concepts of the Trinity and he explicitly "defined" the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended his theology against Praxeas, although he noted that the majority of the believers in his day found issue with his doctrine.

Against the common believers concerned with monotheism, Tertullian's beliefs gives little comfort because he argued that although the above process results in two more who could be called “Gods” it does not introduce two more Gods - not Gods in the sense that Yahweh is a God. His belief was that there is still, as there can only be, one ultimate source of all else, the Father.

From these words, one can deduce that Tertullian was an advocate of a hierarchical system in the Trinity, with the Father as the source and the Son and Holy Spirit as his emanations, being second and third. And he never expressed the “one person” concepts developed in the 4th century.

Although early Christian theologians speculated in many ways on the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, no one clearly and fully asserted the doctrine of the Trinity as being “one” until the 4th century with the Ecumenical Councils of the Roman Catholic Church.

Did the Council of Nicaea create the concept of the Trinity?
The Council of Nicaea, the first ecumenical debate held by the early Christian church, concluded with the establishment of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and the formula being three “persons” being one God.

Why was the “one person” concept so important?
The leaders of the early Christian churches (congregations) gathered in Nicaea to more or less standardize Christian beliefs. The driving force behind this was Emperor Constantine who ordered and financed the gathering. No surprise, standardization was the Roman way. And I want to mention that it took great courage for the Christian leaders to assemble because some came limping and had missing appendages from the Christian persecutions.

But they were not in agreement on many things and some of these arguments were strong enough that an answer had to be found. As it turns out the one God formula silenced a lot of the disagreements. Silenced, because the belief in this doctrine was mandatory upon pain of excommunication or death as a heretic which was handled by the empire as an enemy of the state. The Catholic Church still asserts that you cannot be a Christian unless you believe in the "one person/one God" aspect of the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity

So what is the Trinity really about?
I contend that the Trinity is three Gods in unity with Yahweh being the supreme God and no one like Him. Actually it is the construct of the unity that is the legitimate discussion. This discussion is speculative because the exact construct of this unity may be beyond our comprehension. And with that in mind I suggest that it is possible that part of the unity is because of the perfection of the intellect of all three Gods, in that they think alike, so consequently will never disagree with each other.

Are you advocating or 3 Gods?

 

[Grailhunter]

With so much formal schooling and spending your life in ministry its odd you haven't published a "point by point" rebuttal of the main Systematic Theologies asserting Scripture reveals Infinite God subsists in Three Divine Persons.

For example, you should be able to show the link where the following Systematic Theology by Louis Berkhoff is clearly refuted:


2. SCRIPTURAL PROOF FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY. The doctrine of the Trinity is very decidedly a doctrine of revelation. It is true that human reason may suggest some thoughts to substantiate the doctrine, and that men have sometimes on purely philosophical grounds abandoned the idea of a bare unity in God, and introduced the idea of living movement and self-distinction. And it is also true that Christian experience would seem to demand some such construction of the doctrine of God. At the same time it is a doctrine which we would not have known, nor have been able to maintain with any degree of confidence, on the basis of experience alone, and which is brought to our knowledge only by God’s special self-revelation. Therefore it is of the utmost importance that we gather the Scriptural proofs for it.

a. Old Testament proofs. Some of the early Church Fathers and even some later theologians, disregarding the progressive character of God’s revelation, gave the impression that the doctrine of the Trinity was completely revealed in the Old Testament. On the other hand Socinians and Arminians were of the opinion that it was not found there at all. Both were mistaken. The Old Testament does not contain a full revelation of the trinitarian existence of God, but does contain several indications of it. And this is exactly what might be expected. The Bible never deals with the doctrine of the Trinity as an abstract truth, but reveals the trinitarian life in its various relations as a living reality, to a certain extent in connection with the works of creation and providence, but particularly in relation to the work of redemption. Its most fundamental revelation is a revelation given in facts rather than in words. And this revelation increases in clarity in the measure in which the redemptive work of God is more clearly revealed, as in the incarnation of the Son and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. And the more the glorious reality of the Trinity stands out in the facts of history, the clearer the statements of the doctrine become. The fuller revelation of the Trinity in the New Testament is due to the fact that the Word became flesh, and that the Holy Spirit took up His abode in the Church.
Proof for the Trinity has sometimes been found in the distinction of Jehovah and Elohim, and also in the plural Elohim, but the former is entirely unwarranted, and the latter is, to say the least, very dubious, though Rottenberg still maintains it in his work on De Triniteit in Israels Godsbegrip.1 It is far more plausible that the passages in which God speaks of Himself in the plural, Gen. 1:26; 11:7, contain an indication of personal distinctions in God, though even these do not point to a trinity but only to a plurality of persons. Still clearer indications of such personal distinctions are found in those passages which refer to the Angel of Jehovah, who is on the one hand identified with Jehovah, and on the other hand distinguished from Him, Gen. 16:7–13; 18:1–21; 19:1–28; Mal. 3:1; and also in passages in which the Word or Wisdom of God is personified, Ps. 33:4, 6; Prov. 8:12–31. In some cases more than one person is mentioned, Ps. 33:6; 45:6, 7 (comp. Heb. 1:8, 9), and in others God is the speaker, and mentions both the Messiah and the Spirit, or the Messiah is the speaker who mentions both God and the Spirit, Isa. 48:16; 61:1; 63:9, 10. Thus the Old Testament contains a clear anticipation of the fuller revelation of the Trinity in the New Testament.

b. New Testament proofs. The New Testament carries with it a clearer revelation of the distinctions in the Godhead. If in the Old Testament Jehovah is represented as the Redeemer and Saviour of His people, Job. 19:25; Ps. 19:14; 78:35; 106:21; Isa. 41:14; 43:3, 11, 14; 47:4; 49:7, 26; 60:16; Jer. 14:3; 50:14; Hos. 13:3, in the New Testament the Son of God clearly stands out in that capacity, Matt. 1:21; Luke 1:76–79; 2:17; John 4:42; Acts 5:3; Gal. 3:13; 4:5; Phil. 3:20; Tit. 2:13, 14. And if in the Old Testament it is Jehovah that dwells among Israel and in the hearts of those that fear Him, Ps. 74:2; 135:21; Isa. 8:18; 57:15; Ezek. 43:7–9; Joel 3:17, 21; Zech. 2:10, 11, in the New Testament it is the Holy Spirit that dwells in the Church, Acts 2:4, Rom. 8:9, 11; 1 Cor. 3:16; Gal. 4:6; Eph. 2:22; Jas. 4:5. The New Testament offers the clear revelation of God sending His Son into the world, John 3:16; Gal. 4:4; Heb. 1:6; 1 John 4:9; and of both the Father and the Son, sending the Spirit, John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7; Gal. 4:6. We find the Father addressing the Son, Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22, the Son communing with the Father, Matt. 11:25, 26; 26:39; John 11:41; 12:27, 28, and the Holy Spirit praying to God in the hearts of believers, Rom. 8:26. Thus the separate persons of the Trinity are made to stand out clearly before our minds. At the baptism of the Son the Father speaks from heaven, and the Holy Spirit descends in the form of a dove, Matt. 3:16, 17. In the great commission Jesus mentions the three persons: “… baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matt. 28:19. They are also named alongside of each other in 1 Cor. 12:4–6; 2 Cor. 13:14; and 1 Peter 1:2. The only passage speaking of tri-unity is 1 John 5:7 (Auth. Ver.), but this is of doubtful genuineness, and is therefore eliminated from the latest critical editions of the New Testament.


1 pp. 19ff.

Berkhof, L. (1938). Systematic theology (pp. 85–86). Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co.

HC Thiessen's list of proofs offers much more than Berkhof, but 10,000 character limitations prevented my posting it. Here is an excerpt of his treatment:

h. Christ’s own consciousness and claims as proofs of his deity. At the age of twelve he recognized the peculiar claims of his Father (Luke 2:49), at his baptism he was assured of his special sonship (Matt. 3:17), in the Sermon on the Mount he set himself over against the ancients (Matt. 5:21f., 27f., 33–36), when he sent forth the disciples he gave them power to perform miracles (Matt. 10:1, 8; Luke 10:9, 19), he asserted his pre-existence (John 8:58; 17:5), he requested that prayer be offered in his name (John 16:23f.), he claimed that he and the Father were one (John 10:30; 14:9; 17:11), and he claimed that he was the Son of God (John 10:36). Logic seems to demand that he either is what he knew himself to be and what he claimed to be, or that he is unfit to be recognized at all.

Thiessen, H. C., & Doerksen, V. D. (1979). Lectures in systematic theology (p. 96). William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

This guy like a lot of them have very weak proofs of the one God concept of the Trinity. A lot of these guys write to confuse to prove their point. For example there is a line of thinking that there is only one true God or in this case three Gods make one. The Bible does refer to Yahweh as God and in the Old Testament that He is the only God and no one is like Him. But we have 3 Gods that make up a Godhead.

Then there is always the theological belief that if it makes absolutely no sense….that is the qualifying factor that it is of God and true…..Like God provided the scriptures in a state of confusion.

I might as well of wrote a book.....I have thousands of essays....some in files and some printed out in blue tots.

What I have posted proves conclusively that the Trinity one God formula is false.

And Post 719 explains the history of the concept of the one God Trinity.

 

[Grailhunter]

Are you advocating or 3 Gods?

1. Yahweh 2.Yeshua 3. Holy Spirit = 3
Read my posts they are very detailed.

 

[Free]

For example there is a line of thinking that there is only one true God

Because that is the most foundational truth in the Bible, from beginning to end.

“In the beginning, God…”.

or in this case three Gods make one.

No one has made that argument.

The Bible does refer to Yahweh as God and in the Old Testament that He is the only God and no one is like Him. But we have 3 Gods that make up a Godhead.

There is one God from the beginning to the end. Three gods is unbiblical polytheism that denies what God himself clearly stated:

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
…
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."
...
Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
...
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
...
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isa 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
Isa 48:13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together

(All ESV.)

Yahweh states unequivocally that he is the only God, that he knows of no other, and that there was none before him and there will not be one after him. That means, to say there are three gods makes God a liar. Wouldn’t you agree? If not, how do you claim to know something that God doesn’t know?

What I have posted proves conclusively that the Trinity one God formula is false.

Where? I have read everything you posted and have yet to see a single proof.

 

[Grailhunter]

Because that is the most foundational truth in the Bible, from beginning to end.

“In the beginning, God…”.


No one has made that argument.


There is one God from the beginning to the end. Three gods is unbiblical polytheism that denies what God himself clearly stated:

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
…
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."
...
Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
...
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
...
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isa 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
Isa 48:13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together

(All ESV.)

Yahweh states unequivocally that he is the only God, that he knows of no other, and that there was none before him and there will not be one after him. That means, to say there are three gods makes God a liar. Wouldn’t you agree? If not, how do you claim to know something that God doesn’t know?


Where? I have read everything you posted and have yet to see a single proof.

You have not submitted anything that refutes anything I have written.
And since you got rude I really do not want to discuss it with you.

 

[Free]

You have not submitted anything that refutes anything I have written.

Everything I just posted completely refutes your position.

And since you got rude I really do not want to discuss it with you.

Where have I been rude?

 

[Grailhunter]

Everything I just posted completely refutes your position.

Wrong!

Where have I been rude?

Now you are going to play like you do not know. You might play that game with some here but you will not get away with it..with me.

 

[Free]

Wrong!

Then show me how I am wrong.

Now you are going to play like you do not know. You might play that game with some here but you will not get away with it..with me.

I’m not playing a game; I never play those games. If I have been rude, show me and I’ll apologize.

 

[Grailhunter]

Then show me how I am wrong.


I’m not playing a game; I never play those games. If I have been rude, show me and I’ll apologize.

Oh my gosh other people were even discussing it.
Ok then lets just stop the discussion.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This guy like a lot of them have very weak proofs of the one God concept of the Trinity. A lot of these guys write to confuse to prove their point. For example there is a line of thinking that there is only one true God or in this case three Gods make one. The Bible does refer to Yahweh as God and in the Old Testament that He is the only God and no one is like Him. But we have 3 Gods that make up a Godhead.

Then there is always the theological belief that if it makes absolutely no sense….that is the qualifying factor that it is of God and true…..Like God provided the scriptures in a state of confusion.

I might as well of wrote a book.....I have thousands of essays....some in files and some printed out in blue tots.

What I have posted proves conclusively that the Trinity one God formula is false.

And Post 719 explains the history of the concept of the one God Trinity.

Evasion and deflection. Berkhof, Theissen etc., are the guys to beat, to refute.

You don't become World Champ until you defeat the World's Champion.

Berkhof, Thiessen, Shedd, etc are the "go to guys" when Christians want to learn Trinitarian Doctrine, see the "proofs for it" in the scriptures.

Not "refuting" them implies you cannot. You aren't able to defeat the World Champ. You want us to believe you have the truth, but cannot prove these "Doctors of the Christian Faith" are wrong.

But it them we believe, not you. We don't care about claims of formal education, or a "ministry" of apple seeds. We only care "what saith scripture", and these men cite the verses.

You claim the "lot of them have very weak proofs".

If that were true, you would have proved it long ago, during one of those years you spent in formal education, or in the conduct of your apple seed ministry.

As a former Arian, I can testify their "proofs" are logically sound, and scriptural. That is why I believe in the Orthodox Doctrine of the Holy Trinity, without reservation or doubt. It wasn't until I confessed Jesus is Yahweh the Son, that God the Father answered my prayer for Salvation.

I was calling out to "Jehovah (Yahweh), please have mercy on me", and the clouds stopped my prayers from reaching God (Lam. 3:44).

Only when I called out to Jesus as God the Son, LORD of heaven and Earth, the Christ of God, did Yahweh the Son Yahweh the Father and Yahweh the Holy Spirit answer my prayer.

There is no other name whereby men can be saved:

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. (Jn. 10:7-9 NKJ)

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
26 "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Matt. 11:25-30 NKJ)

 

[Grailhunter]

If that were true, you would have proved it long ago, during one of those years you spent in formal education, or in the conduct of your apple seed ministry.

I already did read posts 663-667

Beside there being over a hundred scriptures proving it is wrong, there is the overall storyline. And I gave the the Tainted history of the doctrine of the Trinity.

In the Gospels Yahweh and Yeshua talk to each other....refer to each other....have different positions .....Father and Son.....note the and.....One in Heaven and one on Earth....The Father gives authority to the Son....love each other.....come and go from each other....know things that the other does not know.....the list goes on and on about a relationship between two "people" not oneself. Most of it is just common sense.

In these discussions I like for people to offer up their designation of the “one” God Trinity. So what do you think it is.....

They are not all the same…you give yours and here is what I am looking at…

The McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.” Which hold true to the fact that the word Trinity does not occur in the Holy Bible.

The Nelson’s Bible Dictionary…..
The coexistence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the unity of the Godhead.

From the internet.....
1. Most Christians believe there is only one God, who is experienced as three persons, also known as the Trinity . These three persons are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

2. Trinity, in Christian doctrine, the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.

3. Britannica…. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus 'threefold') is the central doctrine concerning the nature of God in most Christian churches, which defines one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit, three distinct persons (hypostases) sharing one essence/substance/nature

I cut to the chase….people want to call the Trinity God not Gods. And that there are 3 persons in one God….
I believe there are 3 Gods in unity.
That all three Gods are full-fledged Gods.
But Yahweh is the Supreme God….God Almighty….the Creator of Heaven and Earth….and Adam and Eve.
That Yeshua is His begotten Son….Messiah….Savior of the world.
That the Holy Spirit is the unnamed God…..guide….teacher…. strengthener….
Still I believe Godhead is an accurate term.

So define what you believe the Trinity is….

 

[Free]

Beside there being over a hundred scriptures proving it is wrong,

I've never seen one. What is just one?

there is the overall storyline.

What about that part in the storyline where Yahweh, God the Father alone, according to you, says that he knows of no other God, that there wasn't another before him and won't be one after him? Why is it then that you say there are three separate, "full-fledged Gods" in the NT? That is an entirely different storyline, is it not?

In the Gospels Yahweh and Yeshua talk to each other....refer to each other....have different positions .....Father and Son.....note the and.....One in Heaven and one on Earth....The Father gives authority to the Son....love each other.....come and go from each other....know things that the other does not know.....the list goes on and on about a relationship between two "people" not oneself. Most of it is just common sense.

All of that is in full agreement with the historic, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity--three persons; one God. Also, to argue that it's "a relationship between two "people" not oneself," is a straw man, as I have pointed out previously. If you want to debate the Trinity, then please at least use the historic, orthodox doctrine and not a straw man.

From the internet.....
1. Most Christians believe there is only one God, who is experienced as three persons, also known as the Trinity . These three persons are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Some may believe this, but this is very weak and inaccurate. It could support Modalism or any other heresy.

3. Britannica…. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus 'threefold') is the central doctrine concerning the nature of God in most Christian churches, which defines one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit, three distinct persons (hypostases) sharing one essence/substance/nature

This is very accurate and biblically true.

I cut to the chase….people want to call the Trinity God not Gods. And that there are 3 persons in one God….

Because that is what the Bible teaches; Yahweh himself said he was the only God and there would never be another.

I believe there are 3 Gods in unity.
That all three Gods are full-fledged Gods.
But Yahweh is the Supreme God….God Almighty….the Creator of Heaven and Earth….and Adam and Eve.
That Yeshua is His begotten Son….Messiah….Savior of the world.
That the Holy Spirit is the unnamed God…..guide….teacher…. strengthener….
Still I believe Godhead is an accurate term.

But what about the storyline?

 

[Grailhunter]

I've never seen one. What is just one?

Oh my!.....read posts 663-667.

What about that part in the storyline where Yahweh, God the Father alone, according to you, says that he knows of no other God, that there wasn't another before him and won't be one after him? Why is it then that you say there are three separate, "full-fledged Gods" in the NT? That is an entirely different storyline, is it not?

Ya know this would really mean something if Yahweh would say that in the New Testament.
In the Old Testament, He is just stating the facts.....He is the only God in the OId Testament.

All of that is in full agreement with the historic, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity--three persons; one God. Also, to argue that it's "a relationship between two "people" not oneself," is a straw man, as I have pointed out previously. If you want to debate the Trinity, then please at least use the historic, orthodox doctrine and not a straw man.

Not a straw man just the facts. The orthodox doctrine of he Trinity is a lie with the intent to decease. Just like a lot of the Catholic Doctrines it just that the Protestants swallowed this lie hook line and sinker.

Some may believe this, but this is very weak and inaccurate. It could support Modalism or any other heresy.

Those are examples....I did not say they were my belief. I in fact to not agree with them but they come from official sources.

But what about the storyline?

I have explained the storyline about three times now. What is going on with you?

And why don't you be honest and state what you believe is the Trinity?
This is going to be an on going question so no double talk and do not try to evade it.

 

[Free]

Oh my!.....read posts 663-667.

I did; more than once.

Ya know this would really mean something if Yahweh would say that in the New Testament.
In the Old Testament, He is just stating the facts.....He is the only God in the OId Testament.

Remember, Yahweh said he knew of no other god and that there was no god before and there would be none after him. This is without dispute. So, that leaves you with only four options:

1) Yahweh knew two other gods did actually exist concurrently with him. He is therefore a liar and untrustworthy, and therefore cannot be God.
2) Yahweh didn't actually know two other gods were in existence with him. Therefore, he is not omniscient and cannot be God.
3) Yahweh knew he was going to create two more gods. He is therefore a liar and untrustworthy, and therefore cannot be God.
4) There is a god above these three gods who created all three of your gods. Therefore, nothing in the Bible is to be trusted.

It also bears pointing out that if there truly was only one and then there were three, that the last two are created and cannot be, by definition, gods.

Not a straw man just the facts. The orthodox doctrine of he Trinity is a lie with the intent to decease. Just like a lot of the Catholic Doctrines it just that the Protestants swallowed this lie hook line and sinker.

No, you have presented the historic, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity as a straw man on more than one occasion. If you want to debate the Trinity, then use the actual definition, not a straw man.

Those are examples....I did not say they were my belief. I in fact to not agree with them but they come from official sources.

Yes, I know. I was just pointing out that some definitions floating around on the Internet, are accurate and some are not.

I have explained the storyline about three times now. What is going on with you?

I'm clearly just asking the question to point out that your storyline contradicts itself from the OT to the NT, thereby defeating your argument that the storyline of the Bible proves the historic, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity false.

And why don't you be honest and state what you believe is the Trinity?
This is going to be an on going question so no double talk and do not try to evade it.

I have given it. I first gave the three biblical foundations:

Foundation one: There is only one God.
Foundation two: There are three divine persons.
Foundation three (which follows from the first two): The persons are coequal and coeternal.
(From James R. White's, The Forgotten Trinity.)

https://christianforums.net/threads/how-to-defend-the-trinity.87711/page-34#post-1816723

Then I gave the basic definition, which is to just string those three foundations together:

Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (James R. White, The Forgotten Trinity, p. 26)

https://christianforums.net/threads/how-to-defend-the-trinity.87711/page-35#post-1816741

 

[Grailhunter]

Remember, Yahweh said he knew of no other god and that there was no god before and there would be none after him. This is without dispute. So, that leaves you with only four options:

Does this statement make any sense...what is after Yahweh and I do not need your options.

Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (James R. White, The Forgotten Trinity, p. 26)

Thanks....and of course I disagree with this and you are just one of many that are victims of a Catholic Lie.

 

[Free]

Does this statement make any sense...what is after Yahweh and I do not need your options.

Well, yes, you do. What other options can you give? Yahweh said what he said and your position needs to take it all into account, or it is not biblical. We cannot make the Bible say more than it does and we cannot make it say less than it does.

Thanks....and of course I disagree with this and you are just one of many that are victims of a Catholic Lie.

Then show how any of what I said is incorrect; show me where my reasoning is faulty.