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How to defend the trinity!

wondering said:
I know you GH, I need no reminding. I learned a lot from you.
The reason I think this is important is that some churches today are giving up on the Trinity - or I should say, giving up on the concept that Jesus is God.
An Assembly of God church in Milan, where I went to see Donnie Swaggart (about 3.5 hours from my home So. of Milan) because I so miss my born-again Christian fellowship, had a schism because they no longer believed that Jesus is God. I guess that would make all of Christianity turn into JWs. So were they right all along?
Absolutely not. Jesus is not a created being - He lived even before His birth.
I think that we, as a Christian religion, need to become united in what or who Jesus was.
If we keep arguing about this I believe, eventually, it'll cause the destruction of Christianity.

So how to synchronize?


So then after you've cast the seeds you're willing to just stop speaking about what you believe?
But, instead, you are continuing.
Which means this is important to you too.

What do you think of my beliefs about Christianity up above?
Click to expand...
And if you know me, you know that I was showing great restraint with Free.

I am assuming you mean your post 799.
You said....Absolutely not. Jesus is not a created being - He lived even before His birth.
You are correct but not in the way you think.....This is were theology meets science.
Christ existed from the beginning of time but--but you are not see Genesis saying that Yeshua or the Son of God created everything....people read things into the Old Testament....You are not going to read Yeshua giving the tablets to Moses. But yet He existed.

The explanation for this is very complicated and would pretty much take a classroom.
 
Grailhunter said:
A lot of Christians have a bad attitude towards education....even Christian education. That is problem.

Bible only.....They read scriptures that were wrote 2000 years ago in a reality that if we were transported back then it would seem like an alien world. If you do not have a working knowledge the languages ....quite a bit higher than the Strong's and an understanding of the culture and time period and circumstances.....there are things in the scriptures you are not going to get the correct meaning of.

For example when the Apostles are referring to the one God, they are usually referring to God the Father. Most of the time they made the distinction between God the Father and God the Son by referring to Christ as Lord. In the Old and New Testament there is one Supreme God and that is God the Father.

That has to be understood as an absolute.....God the Father did not step down as Supreme God. And the Apostle were not taking away from Christ by calling Him Lord. Then you have the Holy Spirit...the unnamed God.

And so there are 3 Gods. The legitimate discussion is what is the unity between them.
Click to expand...
I agree with all of the above.
First paragraph - hermeneutics. We need biblical scholars that have studied everything you mention.
We also need to be able to accept what is taught by our own mind/conscience/world-view.
I had to leave Catholicism because it's impossible for me to accept some of their doctrine.

Second paragraph:
Agreed. The Apostles were referring to God Father.
But AFTER the resurrection they understood that they were dealing with a type of being that was different from any other.
Thomas called Jesus My Lord and my God.
My Lord, as in a person he "worshipped", as some men were in those days, and as his master and teacher.
But Thomas also called Jesus my God.
As a Jewish person, as you've stated, he surely knew what he was saying.
He surely didn't think Jesus was God Father come to earth.
The Apostles began assemble all their ideas to be able to come to grips with WHO or WHAT Jesus was.
Remember: When they saw Him walk on water they became afraid...not understanding what was happening.

OK... So what IS the unity between them?
I'll tell you how I understand this and why this understanding made the Trinity make sense to me.
But tomorrow....it's 1am here.

In the meantime, do you have an understanding of this union??
 
Grailhunter said:
And if you know me, you know that I was showing great restraint with Free.

I am assuming you mean your post 799.
You said....Absolutely not. Jesus is not a created being - He lived even before His birth.
You are correct but not in the way you think.....This is were theology meets science.
Christ existed from the beginning of time but--but you are not see Genesis saying that Yeshua or the Son of God created everything....people read things into the Old Testament....You are not going to read Yeshua giving the tablets to Moses. But yet He existed.

The explanation for this is very complicated and would pretty much take a classroom.
Click to expand...
OK, I'll give you my understanding in the morning.
Just too tired.
 
wondering said:
I know you GH, I need no reminding. I learned a lot from you.
The reason I think this is important is that some churches today are giving up on the Trinity - or I should say, giving up on the concept that Jesus is God.
An Assembly of God church in Milan, where I went to see Donnie Swaggart (about 3.5 hours from my home So. of Milan) because I so miss my born-again Christian fellowship, had a schism because they no longer believed that Jesus is God. I guess that would make all of Christianity turn into JWs. So were they right all along?
Absolutely not. Jesus is not a created being - He lived even before His birth.
I think that we, as a Christian religion, need to become united in what or who Jesus was.
If we keep arguing about this I believe, eventually, it'll cause the destruction of Christianity.

So how to synchronize?


So then after you've cast the seeds you're willing to just stop speaking about what you believe?
But, instead, you are continuing.
Which means this is important to you too.

What do you think of my beliefs about Christianity up above?
Click to expand...

I don't mind answering questions but Christianity has been rolling along for 2000 years and it has picked up a lot of false beliefs and misunderstandings. Some of it is their own fault and some of it was people that introduce false beliefs.....I try to warn people that if a popular theological word or phrase is not in the Bible....99% of the time it is false. It is just a popular false belief. And some of these false beliefs are near and dear to their heart and I am not going to fix all that. That why I say I cast the seeds, but it is going to take God to fix it. I give them the information they need, they can look it up if the Holy Spirit put it on their heart.
 
wondering said:
But AFTER the resurrection they understood that they were dealing with a type of being that was different from any other.
Thomas called Jesus My Lord and my God.
My Lord, as in a person he "worshipped", as some men were in those days, and as his master and teacher.
But Thomas also called Jesus my God.
Click to expand...
It is still different. It was a lot to ask for the Apostles to absorb all that. Christ told them He was going to resurrect.....But yet when they saw Him their first thought was that He was a ghost.

The question is when did they fully get it. The scriptures do not indicate that the Apostles worshipped Christ. LOL Probably for the best because they would be crawling around on their hands and knees all the time. Again it is a topic that gets complicated.

But still at some point some or all understood that He was a God.
 
wondering said:
I agree with all of the above.
First paragraph - hermeneutics. We need biblical scholars that have studied everything you mention.
We also need to be able to accept what is taught by our own mind/conscience/world-view.
I had to leave Catholicism because it's impossible for me to accept some of their doctrine.

Second paragraph:
Agreed. The Apostles were referring to God Father.
But AFTER the resurrection they understood that they were dealing with a type of being that was different from any other.
Thomas called Jesus My Lord and my God.
My Lord, as in a person he "worshipped", as some men were in those days, and as his master and teacher.
But Thomas also called Jesus my God.
As a Jewish person, as you've stated, he surely knew what he was saying.
He surely didn't think Jesus was God Father come to earth.
The Apostles began assemble all their ideas to be able to come to grips with WHO or WHAT Jesus was.
Remember: When they saw Him walk on water they became afraid...not understanding what was happening.

OK... So what IS the unity between them?
I'll tell you how I understand this and why this understanding made the Trinity make sense to me.
But tomorrow....it's 1am here.

In the meantime, do you have an understanding of this union??
Click to expand...
See ya later.
 
Grailhunter said:
You kept referring to the verses that there is only one God and no other.

Why would anybody want to prove that the Bible shows that there are 3 Gods?
For one it is the truth.
Two it skews the scriptures where Yahweh and Yeshua are talking and referring to each other. These are two people....whatever juggling they got going on in their minds the meaning of the scriptures are lost.
Click to expand...
The two talking to each other should suggest to you Jesus has always been the "Son"
You have not addressed "The First and the Last" in regard to 3 Gods.

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Hebrews 1 has about the "Son" who was contrasted with Angels. Showing the superiority of the name Jesus inherited, as a Son, over the angels of God. Why the need? Because He is the Fathers Son.

Your choice
True God from true God- Begotten from the Father alone before all worlds but not made (A Son)
or
In Him it did please all the fullness to dwell as from the will of another-Begotten from the Father alone before all things (His spirit) as Gods Firstborn with a beginning (His spirit) at a point in history before the world began. The fullness was not formed but gifted. The eternal life found in the Son is the Father. They are one. (A firstborn Son)

Why the need? Hebrews 1:6
When God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him.

Your choice a person or the Fathers very own Spirit-The Fathers Spirit would have the Fathers nature.
Jesus speaks of this Spirit as another the Father alone does not.

The Fathers promise - In the last days I will pour out "My Spirit" - Jesus stated the Father would send the Spirit in His name. Christ in us.

“Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will bring justice to the nations.

There is only "One" Spirit. Not 3
 
Grailhunter said:
And if you know me, you know that I was showing great restraint with Free.

I am assuming you mean your post 799.
You said....Absolutely not. Jesus is not a created being - He lived even before His birth.
You are correct but not in the way you think.....This is were theology meets science.
Christ existed from the beginning of time but--but you are not see Genesis saying that Yeshua or the Son of God created everything....people read things into the Old Testament....You are not going to read Yeshua giving the tablets to Moses. But yet He existed.

The explanation for this is very complicated and would pretty much take a classroom.
Click to expand...
The Spirit of Christ God worked in the Son of man. Jesus. God is not a man
Jesus like all humans names were written in two books (two is the witness God has spoken). One all of mankind in another the lambs book of eternal life .name of those not born agin will be erased as if they never existed In that way before he was born God had plans for him.

The flesh of the Son of man did not say let thier be and it was good .Again God is not a man he has no DNA.
God the very creator of DNA.

Revelation 20:11-13King James Version And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
 
Randy said:
The two talking to each other should suggest to you Jesus has always been the "Son"
You have not addressed "The First and the Last" in regard to 3 Gods.
Click to expand...
Was there any question that Yeshua is the Son of Yahweh?
And what do you mean the first and last in regard to 3 Gods?

So then you quote scripture....any point?
 
Mr. G Lee said:
The Spirit of Christ God worked in the Son of man. Jesus. God is not a man
Jesus like all humans names were written in two books (two is the witness God has spoken). One all of mankind in another the lambs book of eternal life .name of those not born agin will be erased as if they never existed In that way before he was born God had plans for him.

The flesh of the Son of man did not say let thier be and it was good .Again God is not a man he has no DNA.
God the very creator of DNA.

Revelation 20:11-13King James Version And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Click to expand...
You need to make a point here.

We can all copy and paste scripture....what is your point?
 
Grailhunter said:
You need to make a point here.

We can all copy and paste scripture....what is your point?
Click to expand...

The point is a person (a creation) cannot exist before they are created

The plan or law of Christ's faith called a his labor of love "let there be flesh and blood the (Son of man Jesus) " . . thousands of years later as a demonstration of the work finished and "it was God good" His name as any born again believer was written from the foundation of "let there be" ... .
 
Mr. G Lee said:
The point is a person (a creation) cannot exist before they are created

The plan or law of Christ's faith called a his labor of love "let there be flesh and blood the (Son of man Jesus) " . . thousands of years later as a demonstration of the work finished and "it was God good" His name as any born again believer was written from the foundation of "let there be" ... .
Click to expand...
Are you thinking that Christ was created?
 
Grailhunter said:
Was there any question that Yeshua is the Son of Yahweh?
And what do you mean the first and last in regard to 3 Gods?

So then you quote scripture....any point?
Click to expand...
God states He is the First and the Last the Alpha and Omega so how did you arrive at 3 Gods? Is God mistaken or are you? All 3 can't be the first and last if in fact they are 3 Gods rather than one.

Do you believe , as the church states, Jesus is the only begotten Son from the Father alone before all worlds yet not made? Or like the church states of the Father as unbegotten?

You really haven't defined your 3 God outlook.
Are they coequal, coeternal, consubstantial?

In regard to Jesus the Son of Man did He have a rational soul and a human body? Was He fully human and fully God?

Is there One Spirit or three?

I see Jesus as always being the Son. One in whom all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. As I read Col 1:19. From the will of another at a point in history before all things except the Father.
 
Grailhunter said:
Are you thinking that Christ was created?
Click to expand...

Thanks . .The abomination of desolation. . . No

Christ as eternal God created the temporal Son of man, Jesus .

The wrath of Christ comes when mankind worships the temporal things seen things created above the Creator not seen

Roman 1: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
 
Randy said:
God states He is the First and the Last the Alpha and Omega so how did you arrive at 3 Gods? Is God mistaken or are you? All 3 can't be the first and last if in fact they are 3 Gods rather than one.
Click to expand...
Yahweh did not retire or go away because of Yeshua and the Holy Spirit. He is still eternal.

Randy said:
Do you believe , as the church states, Jesus is the only begotten Son from the Father alone before all worlds yet not made? Or like the church states of the Father as unbegotten?
Click to expand...
You need to rephrase that.
Randy said:
You really haven't defined your 3 God outlook.
Are they coequal, coeternal, consubstantial?
Click to expand...
The essay in posts 663-667 and then 717 and then 719

I believe in…
God the Father…Yahweh…God Almighty…Creator of Heaven and Earth and Adam and Eve…..

God the Son…Yeshua…the real Son of God…Messiah…Savior.

The Holy Spirit…the unnamed God…helper…guide… teacher… strengthener….nurturer….
 
Mr. G Lee said:
Thanks . .The abomination of desolation. . . No

Christ as eternal God created the temporal Son of man, Jesus .

The wrath of Christ comes when mankind worships the temporal things seen things created above the Creator not seen

Roman 1: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Click to expand...
I am sure you have a point in there somewhere and I do not want to assume what it is.
 
wondering said:
Grailhunter

OK, this guy is not my guru or teacher or anything else.
But I do know that what he is saying is correct, and so will you.

It's interesting in that he explains the different heresies.
Much more than I ever knew.


Click to expand...
Hello Wondering, And how are you all? I just wanted to let you all know I have viewed the video, thank you.
 
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