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How to defend the trinity!

Grailhunter said:
How can you read that two Gods are talking to each other and think they are one?
How is it that Christ said the Father is greater than I and be one God? Was he referring to Himself?
How can one God know something and the other does not and be one God?
How can one God have authority over the other God and be just one?
How can one God ascend to another and be one God?
Why did Christ the Son refer to His Father as His God?
When God said He was well pleased with His Son at His baptism.....was He talking about Himself? Or talking to Himself?
There is a reason that the Catholic Church promoted the one God thing. And in fact they where the first to propose the one God formula for the Trinity. The word was used before that but not the doctrine.
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You are looking at scripture with the WRONG eyes and mindset. This post proves that. You are using western Greek (aka pagan) logic devised by Aristotle to analyze Scripture which was written from an entirely different logic framework. (Hebraic block logic)

BTW - It was not the Catholics that promoted "one God." It was/is the Jews.
 
wondering said:
I gave you a Like because I agree with your statements.
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Thanks!
wondering said:
But I also say Yaweh.
Christians are not going to adhere to Jewish linguistic rules, or not say the name of God.
It's just how things are.
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I get that, and you can say it how you like. But be aware that is NOT a correct pronunciation. Based on the Hebrew letters and the closest proper name to it (one letter different) I would hazard to guess it was pronounced "Ya-hu-ah." The name Judah is spelled the same but with a D added, and is pronounced "Ya-hu-dah."
 
I certainly do not understand the Trinity either, but greater minds than mine believe it so I accept it. The main confusion that I've seen tends to be around the fact of Jesus praying. Was he praying to himself? That's unlikely. The best suggestion on this thread seems to be that there are three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in one Godhead. I accept that understanding "Godhead" is the mystery of Christianity and perhaps that mystery will be explained when I go out of this world.
 
JaneH said:
I certainly do not understand the Trinity either, but greater minds than mine believe it so I accept it. The main confusion that I've seen tends to be around the fact of Jesus praying. Was he praying to himself? That's unlikely. The best suggestion on this thread seems to be that there are three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in one Godhead. I accept that understanding "Godhead" is the mystery of Christianity and perhaps that mystery will be explained when I go out of this world.
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Hi Jane
Welcome back.
It's nice to see you again.

I think that we do need to understand the Trinity in some way or mind can accept. We should, however, not question the Trinity itself. As you've stated, it was worked out by minds greater than ours so the only thing we have to do is not fall into heresy.

Your post is very good and well put.
You used the word PERSON, 3 Persons in one Godhead.

This is why Jesus is not praying to Himself...He is a different Person than the Father. Let alone the fact that He had a human nature at the time, besides a divine nature.

Thanks for a good post!
 
D-D-W said:
Thanks!

I get that, and you can say it how you like. But be aware that is NOT a correct pronunciation. Based on the Hebrew letters and the closest proper name to it (one letter different) I would hazard to guess it was pronounced "Ya-hu-ah." The name Judah is spelled the same but with a D added, and is pronounced "Ya-hu-dah."
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Yahuah sounds more like Yeshua....Jesus .

I thought you were going to say YAVEH for
Yahweh.
 
D-D-W said:
FYI - there is also no "W" in Hebrew either. The NAME is Y H V H. (and not pronounced)
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Well then Y H V H is the only God as He, Jesus, and Paul stated and there is no other.
So its clear to me the eternal life found in the Son is Y H V H. Col 1:19
And the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Y H V H.
That's one nature and one God and one Spirit.

And Jesus begotten of the Father alone before all things has His own spirit. The Son who was, His spirit, was in the body prepared for Him. We read at the very least the Father was living in Him doing His work. `But there would be some dimensioned aspect in regard to the fullness gifted as He was made a little lower than then the angel's for a little while. He was clothed with power from above at His baptism. The Spirit came down and "remained" on Him. That Spirit acted on His will as if He was the Father Himself. "Who is this man that even the rain and wind obey?"

“Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, ‘Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!’ And having said this he breathed his last”
 
D-D-W said:
You are looking at scripture with the WRONG eyes and mindset. This post proves that. You are using western Greek (aka pagan) logic devised by Aristotle to analyze Scripture which was written from an entirely different logic framework. (Hebraic block logic)

BTW - It was not the Catholics that promoted "one God." It was/is the Jews.
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Well at least you are right on one point....the Jews believed in one God so did Yahweh but then He had a Son....Yeshua.
But the Catholics did promote the 3 Gods in one person formula for the Trinity.
 
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For anyone following this thread, we need to always make sure when we debate or discuss the Trinity that we accurately understand what the doctrine of the Trinity does and does not state. Otherwise we end up confused and debating straw men.

At no time in Christian history has the Catholic Church ever promoted a formula for the Trinity as being three Gods in one person. It has always been three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial persons in the one being that is God.
 
Free said:
For anyone following this thread, we need to always make sure when we debate or discuss the Trinity that we accurately understand what the doctrine of the Trinity does and does not state. Otherwise we end up confused and debating straw men.

At no time in Christian history has the Catholic Church ever promoted a formula for the Trinity as being three Gods in one person. It has always been three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial persons in the one being that is God.
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For the 6th time do not speak to me.
 
The following is the original creed as it was issued by the council at Nicaea.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things, visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance of the Father; God of God, light of light, true God of true God; begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, by whom all things were made, both in heaven and in earth; who for us men, and for our salvation, descended, was incarnate, and was made man, and suffered, and rose again the third day; he ascended into heaven, and shall come to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Spirit.

The following ecumenical councils sometimes worded it differently but still closely the same.

They are all official detailed explanations.
Then you have the functional understanding. The Catholic Church refers to the Trinity as God. And most Christians refer to the Trinity as God....not Gods as in plural.

Three persons in one God is just a short definition that is reiterated in churches around the world. Actually the word person is ambiguous.

I believe in three separate Gods united in the Godhead.
And I do believe in a hierarchal relationship with Yahweh as Almighty God and Supreme.
I believe that Yeshua and the Holy Spirit are full fledged Gods in their own right.
I believe that Yeshua sits on a throne to the right of Yahweh.

It can be said that Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit are all spirits but the Holy Spirit is not any more a spirit than the other two Gods. Because they did not give the Holy Spirit a name people keyed on the spirit aspect. All three are full fledged Gods with separate minds and separate presence, just as when Yeshua walked on earth He at times referred to His Father in Heaven. And Yeshua acknowledge that His Father knew things that He did not and His Father had authority that He did not have so when Yeshua said the Father is greater than I....it makes sense.
 
Hey All,
I have used this as an example before. Let's see if we can plug it in here:

Trinity is a word used to express the doctrine of the oneness of God as existing within the three distinct Persons (or personalities) of the one God. It is originates from the Greek word "trias." The first time "trias" was used was by Theophilus around 168-183 A D. The first time for the Latin term "trinitas" was by Tertullian in 220A.D. to express the Trinity doctrine. We can break down the doctrine to these four points:
1. There is only one God (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29, 32).
2. The Father is God and is a divine Person or Personality distinguishablly different from the Son and the Holy Spirit. (Exo. 4:22-24, Isa. 44:6. 1Cor.8:6)
3. Jesus Christ is equally God, and is a Person distinguishablly different from the Father and the Holy Spirit. (Deut. 18:15, Dan. 3:23-24, John 1.1; 14, John 5:18)
4. The Holy Spirit is equally God and a divine person distinguishally different from the Father and the Son. ( Genesis 1:2, Isa. 63:14, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4)

The doctrine of the Trinity was developed to help people understand the relationship between God as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Remember that, at this time 168-183 A.D., believers did not have access to a completed Bible as we do. They received their teaching through oral communication. So doctrines were introduced to help believers retain critical information.

So how can three distinct persons be one distinct person? This doesn't seem possible. How can three ones be one in total?

1 • One • I = 1 or One or I.

I can multiply any form of one in any order. Each of the ones are separate, distinct unto itself, number, word, or roman numeral,
yet they all equal each other to the point that any form may be used as the answer. That is probably as close as I can get to explaining the doctrine of the Trinity.

Have I fully explained the Trinity? Qf course not. How can the finite (me) fully describe the infinite (God)? I hope this helps a little in the discussion. Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
 
Grailhunter said:
Was there any question that Yeshua is the Son of Yahweh?
And what do you mean the first and last in regard to 3 Gods?

So then you quote scripture....any point?
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I believe Jesus has always been the Son. Begotten from the Father alone before all things.(His spirit) I believe Jesus is all that the Father is. For in that begotten Son it did please all the fullness of God the Father to dwell. So the Son has all in regard to the Fathers nature. (God) but He is still the Fathers Son which makes the Father His God. He is Lord.

You believe God was the only God then He had Jesus? Correct?
If so you believe God the Father is the First but not the last. Correct?
When God said He was the only God and there is no other what about the Spirit?
Jesus called the Father the only true God. What about the Spirit?

I personally don't view the Spirit as a person but as the Spirit of my heavenly Father. (God) The Fathers own Spirit would have His nature. (God) but the Spirit would not speak or act on His own only what He hears in regard to the will of the mind of the Spirit. The Father as its His Spirit. The Son for it was gifted to Him without limit (fullness) and all authority was given to Him as He sat down with the Father on the Fathers throne.

So is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.
 
Hey All,
In the original post, Bible asks "How do you defend the trinity from the Bible alone " To get us back on topic, I wrote this. Critique as you will.
The Holy Spirit is easy. Acts 5:3-4:

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

So lying to the Holy Ghost is equal to lying to God. There is no dispute. If they are equal to each other, then they can be one and the same. 1 •One =I or One or I.
The dispute is always about Jesus. He never directly said, "I am God ."
I still say the Jews' action in John 8:58-59 Jesus proclaimed, The indicator that the Jews knew exactly what Jesus said was their action. They picked up rocks and told Jesus why. But this is unacceptable. So I am going to take a different approach.
Let me ask this. Who is the apostle John quoting in Revelation 1:8? Verse 7 tells us its the person "who was pierced." I have several translations. Please pay particular attention to the prepositional phrase, "says the Lord God," and the tag line at the end, "the Almighty."

Revelation 1:8
ESV
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
NIV
I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.'
NASB
I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'
CSB
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "the one who is, who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
NLT
I am the Alpha and the Omega — the beginning and the end,' says the Lord God. 'I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come — the Almighty One.'
KJV
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Who is saying, "says the Lord God?" The question is rhetorical because the verse answers itself.
The same is true for who is calling themselves "the Almighty." The Almighty is calling Himself "the Almighty. The same person calling Himself the Lord God, and the Almighty. How can this be? We know John is only speaking for one person, right? There is only one Almighty. Another clue to the puzzle. The Almighty and the Lord God are one. Yet there are two distinct names.

All of them save the KJV says "the Lord God" for the prepositional phrase.
All of them save the NLT uses " the Almighty" at the end of the verse.
So rather than argue about them, let's just ignore them. That still leaves four that read exactly the same way for those two points in the verse. How is there any question about who is speaking?

Now let's look at Revelation 22:12-13:

Revelation 22:12-13 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

I know some of us still don't know who this is, can we at least agree that this is the same person as who was in Revelation 1:8? The person is using the same introduction. We further know that this person is bringing their reward with them. They have the right to pass said reward on to every man according to his work. How many people can do this? Only one I can think of. Now we get to verse 16.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Is there any question about who is saying it now?
The person identifies himself by name as Jesus.
Who is also both the root and offspring of David?
One author, one book, personal proclamation.
He uses Jesus' personal identifiers.
who was pierced
Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the ending,
saith the Lord,
which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty
the first and the last.
I come quickly
bringing their reward with them.
the root and offspring of David?
If this is not Jesus, who is it?
May God bless,
Taz
 
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