How to defend the trinity!

[Grailhunter]

I don't care what you want to believe but if you, as you state , want to follow truth then three Gods is not a possible answer, (my point), nor as others state Jesus and the Father are the same person.

That proof is in my essay. Posts 663-667....717....719

I don't care what you want to believe but if you, as you state , want to follow truth then three Gods is not a possible answer, (my point), nor as others state Jesus and the Father are the same person.

Lets give His concept of the glory of oneness.
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

That goes along with Christ's explanation for the oneness....
Speaking to God the Father (He is not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one...John 17:21 “that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church being one. And then, the next verse is probably one of the best verses to put this oneness concept into perspective. The leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”

 

[D-D-W]

What I have learned from years of my own study and talking to seminarians is this: There is only ONE GOD. He is presented in 3 persons: Father, Son, and Spirit.

And any attempt to dig down farther than that results in going into one of the ancient classical heresies. It is a mystery and must remain so.

 

[Free]

Are you Jehovah’s Witness?

Why would you think that? JWs believe Jesus was created and is a god. You're at least halfway to being a JW.

If Christ existed in the Old Testament then you can show me that Yahweh and Yeshua spoke to each other in the Old Testament, by name, clearly and that something in the Old Testament....like Creation or Exodus involved Him by name, not some fuzzy logic but something clear. Like in the actual book of Genesis it would say that Yeshua created the world. And Yeshua did this and Yeshua did that….and Yahweh said this to Yeshua. Then you would be back to having problems with the one God thing in Old Testament.

Do you believe in progressive revelation in Scripture?

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (ESV)

Why do you think God uses plural personal pronouns when speaking of himself creating humans in his image, but then the narrative switches to singular personal pronouns when mentioning the act of creating them?

I've also given this before:

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says...
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”
Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”? (ESV)

Psa 102:1 A Prayer of one afflicted, when he is faint and pours out his complaint before the LORD. Hear my prayer, O LORD; let my cry come to you!
...
Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end. (ESV)

Why would the Father say that the Son created everything, if the Son didn't create everything, or at least have a hand in it all? Why does John say that nothing came into existence apart from the Word, the preincarnate Son? Why does Paul reiterate that twice?

It's very simple, straightforward logic.

I say this but I do believe that Yeshua always existed but the explanation is more complicated than you can understand.

Try me. Please explain. At a minimum, you have these two significant issues for your position:

1. In the OT God said there would never be another god.
2. The NT repeatedly affirms there is only one God.

And why am I here?....The Johnny Appleseed of Truth.....a lifetime of chasing this stuff down....and this is just the tip of the iceberg of the false beliefs and misunderstands that are in Christianity today. Some of it is their own fault and some false beliefs have been planted.

You call the truth a heresy.....that is so fun.....do you know what you are saying? Heretic comes from the Catholics.....If you did not believe everything they believed you where a heretic....LOL...and according to them all Protestants are heretics.

Now you guys can kick me off of this forum but as long as I am here I will be speaking the Truth.

The canon comes from "the Catholics." Do you think they got the canon right? If not, why believe the Bible at all. If so, don't you think someone would be a heretic for wanting to include the Gnostic gospels, as some do today?

It's worth noting that in the hundreds of years since the Reformation, of all the doctrine that the Reformers jettisoned, the doctrine of the Trinity was not one of them. It's also worth noting that the Jews were and are monotheists and every Christian since has been a monotheist. That has never changed. As long as you're here, I and others will be refuting you with the truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

THIS THREAD IS TEMPORARILY CLOSED FOR CLEAN UP.
WILL REOPEN ASAP.

 

[GodsGrace]

THIS THREAD IS NOW REOPENED.
THANKS FOR YOUR PATIENCE.

 

[Randy]

That proof is in my essay. Posts 663-667....717....719


That goes along with Christ's explanation for the oneness....
Speaking to God the Father (He is not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one...John 17:21 “that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church being one. And then, the next verse is probably one of the best verses to put this oneness concept into perspective. The leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”

You cannot prove from the bible that there are 3 Gods.

 

[GodsGrace]

You cannot prove from the bible that there are 3 Gods.

Hi Randy, I haven't been reading detail, but why would anyone want to prove the bible shows that there are 3 gods??

I'm not sure this is what Grailhunter is stating.
I'd be pretty shocked.

I'll try to read more detail from here.

 

[Grailhunter]

Why would you think that? JWs believe Jesus was created and is a god. You're at least halfway to bei

You kept referring to the verses that there is only one God and no other.

Hi Randy, I haven't been reading detail, but why would anyone want to prove the bible shows that there are 3 gods??

I'm not sure this is what Grailhunter is stating.
I'd be pretty shocked.

I'll try to read more detail from here.

Why would anybody want to prove that the Bible shows that there are 3 Gods?
For one it is the truth.
Two it skews the scriptures where Yahweh and Yeshua are talking and referring to each other. These are two people....whatever juggling they got going on in their minds the meaning of the scriptures are lost.

 

[Free]

You kept referring to the verses that there is only one God and no other.

Yes, and I've given numerous verses and could give more. God himself says he is the only God and there will never be another. But he is tri-personal, being three persons in the one God. Each of the three persons is truly and fully God in nature, but they are not separate Gods; the Bible precludes tritheism. Is it difficult and ultimately incomprehensible? Yes, but if I could fully comprehend God, then he would be a god of my own making.

JWs are "bitheists," with the Son having existed first as Michael the Archangel ("a god"), coming to earth as the Son, and then returning to be Michael again (from what I can remember). To them, the Son is a mere creature and lesser god; but the Bible clearly states he is fully God in nature.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, and I've given numerous verses and could give more. God himself says he is the only God and there will never be another. But he is tri-personal, being three persons in the one God. Each of the three persons is truly and fully God in nature, but they are not separate Gods; the Bible precludes tritheism. Is it difficult and ultimately incomprehensible? Yes, but if I could fully comprehend God, then he would be a god of my own making.

JWs are "bitheists," with the Son having existed first as Michael the Archangel ("a god"), coming to earth as the Son, and then returning to be Michael again (from what I can remember). To them, the Son is a mere creature and lesser god; but the Bible clearly states he is fully God in nature.

Again I am done with you. Leave me alone.

 

[GodsGrace]

You kept referring to the verses that there is only one God and no other.

Why would anybody want to prove that the Bible shows that there are 3 Gods?
For one it is the truth.
Two it skews the scriptures where Yahweh and Yeshua are talking and referring to each other. These are two people....whatever juggling they got going on in their minds the meaning of the scriptures are lost.

I'm sorry G, I haven't been reading for posting, but only for moderating...
I REALLY don't know what you think about this....
So, you're saying there are 3 gods?

But the bible says there is only One.

How does one go against this??

 

[Grailhunter]

I'm sorry G, I haven't been reading for posting, but only for moderating...
I REALLY don't know what you think about this....
So, you're saying there are 3 gods?

But the bible says there is only One.

How does one go against this??

How can you read that two Gods are talking to each other and think they are one?
How is it that Christ said the Father is greater than I and be one God? Was he referring to Himself?
How can one God know something and the other does not and be one God?
How can one God have authority over the other God and be just one?
How can one God ascend to another and be one God?
Why did Christ the Son refer to His Father as His God?
When God said He was well pleased with His Son at His baptism.....was He talking about Himself? Or talking to Himself?
There is a reason that the Catholic Church promoted the one God thing. And in fact they where the first to propose the one God formula for the Trinity. The word was used before that but not the doctrine.
It is all in my essay Posts 663-667....717....719 over a hundred scriptures.

 

[GodsGrace]

How can you read that two Gods are talking to each other and think they are one?
How is it that Christ said the Father is greater than I and be one God? Was he referring to Himself?
How can one God know something and the other does not and be one God?
How can one God have authority over the other God and be just one?
How can one God ascend to another and be one God?
Why did Christ the Son refer to His Father as His God?
When God said He was well pleased with His Son at His baptism.....was He talking about Himself? Or talking to Himself?
There is a reason that the Catholic Church promoted the one God thing. And in fact they where the first to propose the one God formula for the Trinity. The word was used before that but not the doctrine.
It is all in my essay Posts 663-667....717....719 over a hundred scriptures.

What do you believe was the reason the CC promoted the One God theory?

 

[GodsGrace]

How can you read that two Gods are talking to each other and think they are one?
How is it that Christ said the Father is greater than I and be one God? Was he referring to Himself?
How can one God know something and the other does not and be one God?
How can one God have authority over the other God and be just one?
How can one God ascend to another and be one God?
Why did Christ the Son refer to His Father as His God?
When God said He was well pleased with His Son at His baptism.....was He talking about Himself? Or talking to Himself?
There is a reason that the Catholic Church promoted the one God thing. And in fact they where the first to propose the one God formula for the Trinity. The word was used before that but not the doctrine.
It is all in my essay Posts 663-667....717....719 over a hundred scriptures.

If I posted a pretty long video re the Trinity and how it came about, would you watch it?
I know you studied a lot and may prefer not to take the time.
I'll post it anyway so others could watch it if they're interested.

It's about all the heresies that were floating around the difference centuries and how it was necessary for the Godhead/Trinity to be made a doctrine in the Council of Nicaea in 325AD, and also goes into other councils.

There were a lot of questions regarding Jesus in the early day.
I think the church just had to settle on one.

Adoptionism
Arianism
Modulism
Polytheism

You sound like a polytheist.
The following has some heresies, and they ARE heresies.
A heresy is any belief that is outside the accepted beliefs of a religion.


If I can find the video, I'll also post that.

 

[Grailhunter]

What do you believe was the reason the CC promoted the One God theory?

It is in the essay and this is part of the post from 719
Why was the “one person” concept so important?
The leaders of the early Christian churches (congregations) gathered in Nicaea to more or less standardize Christian beliefs. The driving force behind this was Emperor Constantine who ordered and financed the gathering. No surprise, standardization was the Roman way. And I want to mention that it took great courage for the Christian leaders to assemble because some came limping and had missing appendages from the Christian persecutions.

But they were not in agreement on many things and some of these arguments were strong enough that an answer had to be found. As it turns out the one God formula silenced a lot of the disagreements. Silenced, because the belief in this doctrine was mandatory upon pain of excommunication or death as a heretic which was handled by the empire as an enemy of the state. The Catholic Church still asserts that you cannot be a Christian unless you believe in the "one person/one God" aspect of the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity

So what is the Trinity really about?
I contend that the Trinity is three Gods in unity with Yahweh being the supreme God and no one like Him. Actually it is the construct of the unity that is the legitimate discussion. This discussion is speculative because the exact construct of this unity may be beyond our comprehension. And with that in mind I suggest that it is possible that part of the unity is because of the perfection of the intellect of all three Gods, in that they think alike, so consequently will never disagree with each other.

 

[GodsGrace]

Grailhunter

OK, this guy is not my guru or teacher or anything else.
But I do know that what he is saying is correct, and so will you.

It's interesting in that he explains the different heresies.
Much more than I ever knew.

 

[Grailhunter]

If I posted a pretty long video re the Trinity and how it came about, would you watch it?
I know you studied a lot and may prefer not to take the time.
I'll post it anyway so others could watch it if they're interested.

It's about all the heresies that were floating around the difference centuries and how it was necessary for the Godhead/Trinity to be made a doctrine in the Council of Nicaea in 325AD, and also goes into other councils.

There were a lot of questions regarding Jesus in the early day.
I think the church just had to settle on one.

Adoptionism
Arianism
Modulism
Polytheism

You sound like a polytheist.
The following has some heresies, and they ARE heresies.
A heresy is any belief that is outside the accepted beliefs of a religion.


If I can find the video, I'll also post that.

You can give me the video but let me explain something to you.
I am 66 years old…retired from the defense department and UPS.
My mom was Catholic and my dad was Southern Baptist.

I Grew up in a church oriented family.
My family was big on country music and house full of blue grass and Gospel musicians, at least on weekends.

I was Gifted child….reading the Bible at 6 years old in church…
Started college at 15 years old and would have been 14 but there were family problems. But I was doing Christian courses very early.
Formal theological education in 5 countries for most of my life.

Theologians rarely pick a denomination but I am usually in one church or another on Sundays and some Wednesdays. I am tolerant of various denominations. I fellowship with the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Pentecosts, the Catholics, the Glad Tidings Assembly of God, the Moravian Church and nearly a dozen non-denominational churches and I have had Jewish and Mormon friends from the time I was a kid.

I am not a preacher….too much stress.
I am a speaker and I fill in for Sunday school. My ministry as I told you is the Johnny Appleseed of Truth. And that is how I do it….sharing the seeds of Christian truth. But I do it as Christ described ….seeds….

Matthew 13
That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. Whoever has ears, let them hear.”…..

…..“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

My responsibility is to provide the truth so Christians at least have the opportunity to know the truth….that ends my responsibility. Unlike a preacher that is concerned with what people believe or if they believe him, I am not involved with that or concerned with that. The seeds do what they do and it is between the person(s) and God.

I have done the work and gave it to them for free….from there if Holy Spirit puts it on there heart to be interested they have the information they need to go look it up themselves.

I am a very proficient debater but I do not have much patience for those that talk garbage or have a sinister intent.

I have had offers to teach but if I have a flaw it has to do with patience…In college the Professors and classes went way to slow and if I teach they catch on way to slow. So I cast seeds and let God handle the rest.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is in the essay and this is part of the post from 719
Why was the “one person” concept so important?
The leaders of the early Christian churches (congregations) gathered in Nicaea to more or less standardize Christian beliefs. The driving force behind this was Emperor Constantine who ordered and financed the gathering. No surprise, standardization was the Roman way. And I want to mention that it took great courage for the Christian leaders to assemble because some came limping and had missing appendages from the Christian persecutions.

But they were not in agreement on many things and some of these arguments were strong enough that an answer had to be found. As it turns out the one God formula silenced a lot of the disagreements. Silenced, because the belief in this doctrine was mandatory upon pain of excommunication or death as a heretic which was handled by the empire as an enemy of the state. The Catholic Church still asserts that you cannot be a Christian unless you believe in the "one person/one God" aspect of the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity

So what is the Trinity really about?
I contend that the Trinity is three Gods in unity with Yahweh being the supreme God and no one like Him. Actually it is the construct of the unity that is the legitimate discussion. This discussion is speculative because the exact construct of this unity may be beyond our comprehension. And with that in mind I suggest that it is possible that part of the unity is because of the perfection of the intellect of all three Gods, in that they think alike, so consequently will never disagree with each other.

The One Person concept was also important because if Jesus was only a man and we're worshipping Him,
We're worshipping a person that is human like us and that would go against everything we know about God in the OT.
Deuteronomy 6:4 The Shema

If Jesus was God, then we are worshipping Two gods, and we're told how jealous God is in the OT.
Exodus 34:14
13“But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and cut down their Asherim 14—for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God—

The initial problem was in figuring out who or what Jesus was....before even considering The Holy Spirit.

When we have to synchronize the bible, we cannot take one verse (or 2 or more) at the expense of all others.
And the above is indeed a conundrum since Jesus made miracles happen and since He forgave sins, which only God can do, and since He seemed to have resurrected from the dead, then this had to be explained somehow.

Thus the Trinity/Godhead.

 

[GodsGrace]

You can give me the video but let me explain something to you.
I am 66 years old…retired from the defense department and UPS.
My mom was Catholic and my dad was Southern Baptist.

I Grew up in a church oriented family.
My family was big on country music and house full of blue grass and Gospel musicians, at least on weekends.

I was Gifted child….reading the Bible at 6 years old in church…
Started college at 15 years old and would have been 14 but there were family problems. But I was doing Christian courses very early.
Formal theological education in 5 countries for most of my life.

Theologians rarely pick a denomination but I am usually in one church or another on Sundays and some Wednesdays. I am tolerant of various denominations. I fellowship with the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Pentecosts, the Catholics, the Glad Tidings Assembly of God, the Moravian Church and nearly a dozen non-denominational churches and I have had Jewish and Mormon friends from the time I was a kid.

I am not a preacher….too much stress.
I am a speaker and I fill in for Sunday school. My ministry as I told you is the Johnny Appleseed of Truth. And that is how I do it….sharing the seeds of Christian truth. But I do it as Christ described ….seeds….

I know you GH, I need no reminding. I learned a lot from you.
The reason I think this is important is that some churches today are giving up on the Trinity - or I should say, giving up on the concept that Jesus is God.
An Assembly of God church in Milan, where I went to see Donnie Swaggart (about 3.5 hours from my home So. of Milan) because I so miss my born-again Christian fellowship, had a schism because they no longer believed that Jesus is God. I guess that would make all of Christianity turn into JWs. So were they right all along?
Absolutely not. Jesus is not a created being - He lived even before His birth.
I think that we, as a Christian religion, need to become united in what or who Jesus was.
If we keep arguing about this I believe, eventually, it'll cause the destruction of Christianity.

So how to synchronize?

Matthew 13
That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. Whoever has ears, let them hear.”…..

…..“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

My responsibility is to provide the truth so Christians at least have the opportunity to know the truth….that ends my responsibility. Unlike a preacher that is concerned with what people believe or if they believe him, I am not involved with that or concerned with that. The seeds do what they do and it is between the person(s) and God.

I have done the work and gave it to them for free….from there if Holy Spirit puts it on there heart to be interested they have the information they need to go look it up themselves.

I am a very proficient debater but I do not have much patience for those that talk garbage or have a sinister intent.

I have had offers to teach but if I have a flaw it has to do with patience…In college the Professors and classes went way to slow and if I teach they catch on way to slow. So I cast seeds and let God handle the rest.

So then after you've cast the seeds you're willing to just stop speaking about what you believe?
But, instead, you are continuing.
Which means this is important to you too.

What do you think of my beliefs about Christianity up above?

 

[Grailhunter]

Grailhunter

OK, this guy is not my guru or teacher or anything else.
But I do know that what he is saying is correct, and so will you.

It's interesting in that he explains the different heresies.
Much more than I ever knew.

A lot of Christians have a bad attitude towards education....even Christian education. That is problem.

Bible only.....They read scriptures that were wrote 2000 years ago in a reality that if we were transported back then it would seem like an alien world. If you do not have a working knowledge the languages ....quite a bit higher than the Strong's and an understanding of the culture and time period and circumstances.....there are things in the scriptures you are not going to get the correct meaning of.

For example when the Apostles are referring to the one God, they are usually referring to God the Father. Most of the time they made the distinction between God the Father and God the Son by referring to Christ as Lord. In the Old and New Testament there is one Supreme God and that is God the Father.

That has to be understood as an absolute.....God the Father did not step down as Supreme God. And the Apostle were not taking away from Christ by calling Him Lord. Then you have the Holy Spirit...the unnamed God.

And so there are 3 Gods. The legitimate discussion is what is the unity between them.