How to defend the trinity!

[Grailhunter]

Without pasting everything I have given already, God (Yahweh) says this of himself in the OT:

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."

In the NT, Jesus, Paul, James, and Jude agree with Yahweh:

Mar 12:29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
...
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him.
...
Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

1Co 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”
1Co 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

1Ti 1:17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Jud 1:25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

(All ESV.)


He also mentioned that there is only one God...


We all agree on this, so why keep mentioning it? What does it have to do with the discussion?

They are talking to another person.....not one....not to themselves

 

[Free]

They are talking to another person.....not one....not to themselves

Yes, I know. I have agreed with that more than once and given a definition of the historic, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity which fully affirms there are three persons.

Are you going to address those passages I have given rather than dismissing everything difficult for your position based on a straw man?

 

[Grailhunter]

Those that want to know the truth about the Trinity read posts 663-667....717....719

 

[Free]

Those that want to know the truth about the Trinity read posts 663-667....717....719

Why are you here? These are discussion forums but it seems you just want to teach your tritheism heresy and don't want to discuss anything to the contrary. It seems as though you don't want to be challenged. That suggests you aren't actually interested in truth. You have refused several times now to address verses which clearly prove difficult (impossible actually) for your position to take into account, preferring the ad hominem fallacy instead.

You'll notice I am willing to address anything you put to me but that is not being reciprocated by you. It's actually the tactic most anti-trinitarians use most often. Things get too difficult so they ignore and evade and simply repeat their defeated arguments. But I am interested in the truth, especially of Scripture because it is God's word to us, and getting it wrong can have disastrous consequences. As such, I am also concerned for people when what they believe is clearly not the truth or when they fail to address truth.

So, why do you continue to ignore the clear verses of Scripture that I have provided? Why don't you take the most important theological topic more seriously and instead prefer to show disrespect to those who challenge your beliefs?

 

[Grailhunter]

Why are you here? These are discussion forums but it seems you just want to teach your tritheism heresy and don't want to discuss anything to the contrary. It seems as though you don't want to be challenged. That suggests you aren't actually interested in truth. You have refused several times now to address verses which clearly prove difficult (impossible actually) for your position to take into account, preferring the ad hominem fallacy instead.

You'll notice I am willing to address anything you put to me but that is not being reciprocated by you. It's actually the tactic most anti-trinitarians use most often. Things get too difficult so they ignore and evade and simply repeat their defeated arguments. But I am interested in the truth, especially of Scripture because it is God's word to us, and getting it wrong can have disastrous consequences. As such, I am also concerned for people when what they believe is clearly not the truth or when they fail to address truth.

So, why do you continue to ignore the clear verses of Scripture that I have provided? Why don't you take the most important theological topic more seriously and instead prefer to show disrespect to those who challenge your beliefs?

Why do you ignore clear verses?

You have not come up with anything that makes any sense.

I have given you time to come up with something but you cannot do it.

Your questioning is nothing more than harassment.

Enough is enough.

 

[Grailhunter]

Why are you here? These are discussion forums but it seems you just want to teach your tritheism heresy and don't want to discuss anything to the contrary. It seems as though you don't want to be challenged. That suggests you aren't actually interested in truth. You have refused several times now to address verses which clearly prove difficult (impossible actually) for your position to take into account, preferring the ad hominem fallacy instead.

You'll notice I am willing to address anything you put to me but that is not being reciprocated by you. It's actually the tactic most anti-trinitarians use most often. Things get too difficult so they ignore and evade and simply repeat their defeated arguments. But I am interested in the truth, especially of Scripture because it is God's word to us, and getting it wrong can have disastrous consequences. As such, I am also concerned for people when what they believe is clearly not the truth or when they fail to address truth.

So, why do you continue to ignore the clear verses of Scripture that I have provided? Why don't you take the most important theological topic more seriously and instead prefer to show disrespect to those who challenge your beliefs?

And the reason I am here is that Christians deserve to know the truth.

 

[Free]

Why do you ignore clear verses?

Please point to one that I have ignored and I'll address it.

You have not come up with anything that makes any sense.

I certainly have. Here is just one of those things again:

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."

Mar 12:29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
...
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him.
...
Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

1Co 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”
1Co 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

1Ti 1:17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Jud 1:25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

(All ESV.)

Yahweh, Jesus, Paul, James, and Jude say there is only one God. It is literally from the beginning to the end of Scripture.

What you say:

"1. Yahweh 2.Yeshua 3. Holy Spirit = 3"

How do you reconcile what you say with what the Bible says? They cannot both be true.

I have given you time to come up with something but you cannot do it.

What are you talking about?

Your questioning is nothing more than harassment.

Enough is enough.

Your post proves my point. Thank you.

And the reason I am here is that Christians deserve to know the truth.

Yes, they do. Since you refuse to discuss Scripture, which is truth, why are you here?

 

[Grailhunter]

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

And this is the point....we have discussed this so many times and I have answered it and it was part of my essay. Why ask the same question over and over again?

And again, during the Old Testament Yahweh was the only God and there was no one like Him. Please get that in your head.

In the New Testament catagoriicaly there is still no one like Him. He is the Supreme being as in God Almighty. But in the New Testament He begot a Son that is also a God and then you have the Holy Spirit, another God....God in their own right. But as Christ said, The Father is greater than I.

This oneness thing Christ explained and again.....
Speaking to God the Father (He is not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one...John 17:21 “that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church being one. And then, the next verse is probably one of the best verses to put this oneness concept into perspective. The leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”

And this is all in my essay.

 

[Free]

And this is the point....we have discussed this so many times and I have answered it and it was part of my essay. Why ask the same question over and over again?

Because I refuted it.

And again, during the Old Testament Yahweh was the only God and there was no one like Him. Please get that in your head.

That is exactly what I’ve been pointing out. But he says more than that, doesn’t he? He says that there never would be another god, which means there will only ever be one God. And that is repeated by Jesus, Paul, James, and Jude, and implied throughout the NT.

In the New Testament catagoriicaly there is still no one like Him. He is the Supreme being as in God Almighty. But in the New Testament He begot a Son that is also a God and then you have the Holy Spirit, another God....God in their own right. But as Christ said, The Father is greater than I.

So, you still have at least four serious problems:

1. In the OT God said there would never be another god.
2. The NT repeatedly affirms there is only one God.
3. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit are created—if there was a time when they did not exist—then they cannot, by definition, be Gods. Eternal existence is a necessary property of God, so they are mere creatures like us and the angels.
4. If God is love, as John states in 1 John 4:8 and 16, then it necessarily follows that God cannot have only been one person. That is also supported by John 1:1b, 2.

Either you are right or the Bible is right, not both. Those are mutually exclusive positions.

John 1:1-18, John 8:58, Rom 10:9-13, 1 Cor 8:6, Phil 2:5-8, and Col 1:16-17, among others, clearly show that the Son has always existed and is therefore truly God. By extension then, given what the NT states about the Holy Spirit, he is also truly God and there never was a time when he did not exist.

That leaves us in a conundrum because the Bible clearly and repeatedly tells us that there is only one God. That is what we have to make sense of and theology proper must take it all into account.

Taken together it unequivocally precludes tritheism, Modalism/Sabellianism, and Arianism (and many other, more obscure “isms.”)

This oneness thing Christ explained and again.....
Speaking to God the Father (He is not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one...John 17:21 “that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church being one. And then, the next verse is probably one of the best verses to put this oneness concept into perspective. The leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”

And this is all in my essay.

That is a sense of oneness as it pertains to the economic Trinity—the roles each person of the Trinity had in creation and for the plan of salvation for humans and the redemption of creation. But ontologically, the three persons have always been the one God: a tri-personal God. Remember, God is love. That necessarily requires a minimum of two persons. There is another much more fundamental oneness to the three persons—ontological.

 

[Grailhunter]

Because I refuted it.


That is exactly what I’ve been pointing out. But he says more than that, doesn’t he? He says that there never would be another god, which means there will only ever be one God. And that is repeated by Jesus, Paul, James, and Jude, and implied throughout the NT.


So, you still have at least four serious problems:

1. In the OT God said there would never be another god.
2. The NT repeatedly affirms there is only one God.
3. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit are created—if there was a time when they did not exist—then they cannot, by definition, be Gods. Eternal existence is a necessary property of God, so they are mere creatures like us and the angels.
4. If God is love, as John states in 1 John 4:8 and 16, then it necessarily follows that God cannot have only been one person. That is also supported by John 1:1b, 2.

Either you are right or the Bible is right, not both. Those are mutually exclusive positions.

John 1:1-18, John 8:58, Rom 10:9-13, 1 Cor 8:6, Phil 2:5-8, and Col 1:16-17, among others, clearly show that the Son has always existed and is therefore truly God. By extension then, given what the NT states about the Holy Spirit, he is also truly God and there never was a time when he did not exist.

That leaves us in a conundrum because the Bible clearly and repeatedly tells us that there is only one God. That is what we have to make sense of and theology proper must take it all into account.

Taken together it unequivocally precludes tritheism, Modalism/Sabellianism, and Arianism (and many other, more obscure “isms.”)


That is a sense of oneness as it pertains to the economic Trinity—the roles each person of the Trinity had in creation and for the plan of salvation for humans and the redemption of creation. But ontologically, the three persons have always been the one God: a tri-personal God. Remember, God is love. That necessarily requires a minimum of two persons. There is another much more fundamental oneness to the three persons—ontological.

Are you Jehovah’s Witness?

If Christ existed in the Old Testament then you can show me that Yahweh and Yeshua spoke to each other in the Old Testament, by name, clearly and that something in the Old Testament....like Creation or Exodus involved Him by name, not some fuzzy logic but something clear. Like in the actual book of Genesis it would say that Yeshua created the world. And Yeshua did this and Yeshua did that….and Yahweh said this to Yeshua. Then you would be back to having problems with the one God thing in Old Testament.

I say this but I do believe that Yeshua always existed but the explanation is more complicated than you can understand.

And why am I here?....The Johnny Appleseed of Truth.....a lifetime of chasing this stuff down....and this is just the tip of the iceberg of the false beliefs and misunderstands that are in Christianity today. Some of it is their own fault and some false beliefs have been planted.

You call the truth a heresy.....that is so fun.....do you know what you are saying? Heretic comes from the Catholics.....If you did not believe everything they believed you where a heretic....LOL...and according to them all Protestants are heretics.

Now you guys can kick me off of this forum but as long as I am here I will be speaking the Truth.

 

[Randy]

And that is fine with me.
Ya know pastors have stress, I hang with them doing different things and hear some stories LOL
But when I started this ministry I decided that my obligation was only to provide the truth....not to worry whether people believe or not....if they cared an ounce they could go check it out.

No stress on me.

The truth as shown is that there is only one God.
The nature found in the only like to like begotten Son from the Father alone is God. Col 1:19
Whether you see the Spirit of God as a person or the Fathers very own Spirit the nature of that Spirit is God.

 

[Grailhunter]

The truth as shown is that there is only one God.
The nature found in the only like to like begotten Son from the Father alone is God. Col 1:19
Whether you see the Spirit of God as a person or the Fathers very own Spirit the nature of that Spirit is God.

Of course I and the Scriptures disagrees with you......

 

[Mr. G Lee]

They are talking to another person.....not one....not to themselves

No other gods includes oneself .

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

The trinity was developed by those who worship a queen mother of heaven deity (Jeremiah 44) they refused to hear sola scriptura) and chose his and hers gods

Two is the witness God has spoken God giving words to his prophet sending out two apostles with the gospel of peace The dynamic dual .The unseen eternal father and the Son of man the temporal. . seen

LOL Lone Ranger and Tonto, Batman and Robin, husband and wife. Sony and Cher.

1 Kings 5:12 And the Lord gave Solomon wisdom, as he promised him: and there was peace between Hiram and Solomon; and they two made a league together.

2 Samuel 15:27 The king said also unto Zadok the priest, Art not thou a seer? return into the city in peace, and your two sons with you, Ahimaaz thy son, and Jonathan the son of Abiathar.

Leviticus 23:19 Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.

 

[Randy]

Of course I and the Scriptures disagrees with you......

There is only one true God.
Jesus is the only like to like begotten Son.

Which part do you disagree with in regard to the Scriptures?

 

[Grailhunter]

There is only one true God.
Jesus is the only like to like begotten Son.

Which part do you disagree with in regard to the Scriptures?

So Yeshua and the Holy Spirt are not Gods?

 

[Mr. G Lee]

So Yeshua and the Holy Spirt are not Gods?

Yeshua is the Holy Spirit of God or called the Spirit of Christ.the one spirit of His faith (unseen things of God)

The one Spirit of unity that works mutually in all new creations born from above.

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

 

[Randy]

So Yeshua and the Holy Spirt are not Gods?

Another God was not formed. The fullness was gifted and from the will of another. Col 1:19; Col 2:9
and the Spirit proceeds from the Father. The Spirit of God. His Spirit. Matt 10:20

In that manner they all are of the same Spirit and nature. They are one.

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yeshua is the Holy Spirit of God or called the Spirit of Christ.the one spirit of His faith (unseen things of God)

The one Spirit of unity that works mutually in all new creations born from above.

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

I am aware of this belief where the Holy Spirit is not a God but rather the Spirit of Yahweh or Yeshua or both. It does not pan out and theologians to not agree with it. For one thing it reduces the Trinity to duo.

The reason for the confusion is the term Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost which some take as not a God. The name of the Holy Spirit was never revealed in the Scriptures and it caused some confusion.

The Scriptures speak a lot about spirit and it can easily be cross wired.

 

[Grailhunter]

Another God was not formed. The fullness was gifted and from the will of another. Col 1:19; Col 2:9
and the Spirit proceeds from the Father. The Spirit of God. His Spirit. Matt 10:20

In that manner they all are of the same Spirit and nature. They are one.

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

I have already given Christ's explanation of the concept of one. That is good enough.

1. Yahweh, God the Father....God Supreme....God almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth and Adam and Eve.
2. Yeshua the begotten Son of the Father...a full fledged God....Messiah...Savior.
3. The Holy Spirit a full fledged God....guide....teacher.... strengthener.

Do you think someone but them in a blender and hit purée?
Do we have a milk shake for the Trinity? Does it have lumps?

 

[Randy]

I have already given Christ's explanation of the concept of one. That is good enough.

1. Yahweh, God the Father....God Supreme....God almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth and Adam and Eve.
2. Yeshua the begotten Son of the Father...a full fledged God....Messiah...Savior.
3. The Holy Spirit a full fledged God....guide....teacher.... strengthener.

Do you think someone but them in a blender and hit purée?
Do we have a milk shake for the Trinity? Does it have lumps?

I don't care what you want to believe but if you, as you state , want to follow truth then three Gods is not a possible answer, (my point), nor as others state Jesus and the Father are the same person.

Lets give His concept of the glory of oneness.
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.