How to defend the trinity!

[D-D-W]

The following is the original creed as it was issued by the council at Nicaea.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things, visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance of the Father; God of God, light of light, true God of true God; begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, by whom all things were made, both in heaven and in earth; who for us men, and for our salvation, descended, was incarnate, and was made man, and suffered, and rose again the third day; he ascended into heaven, and shall come to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Spirit.

As Rabbi Dan Juster has pointed out, the doctrine itself is essentially correct.
HOWEVER, it is worded in such a way as to make truly curious traditional Jews turn away, as it looks completely pagan to them. And that is in direct opposition to what Paul wrote in Romans 11 that Gentile believers were to make Jews jealous. You do not get jealous for things that are not yours.

I believe in three separate Gods united in the Godhead.

And that is the ancient heresy of tri-theism.

 

[Free]

So how can three distinct persons be one distinct person? This doesn't seem possible. How can three ones be one in total?

We should be careful to keep the distinctions in language that were decided long ago. The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated to avoid saying that three persons are one person or three gods are one God; those are both contradictions. It’s always three persons within the one God.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

We should be careful to keep the distinctions in language that were decided long ago. The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated to avoid saying that three persons are one person or three gods are one God; those are both contradictions. It’s always three persons within the one God.

Good Morning, How are you all? Following this thread reminds me of what Paul was saying:

Colossians 2:9

​

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Read full chapter

Love, Walter

 

[GodsGrace]

The following is the original creed as it was issued by the council at Nicaea.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things, visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance of the Father; God of God, light of light, true God of true God; begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, by whom all things were made, both in heaven and in earth; who for us men, and for our salvation, descended, was incarnate, and was made man, and suffered, and rose again the third day; he ascended into heaven, and shall come to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Spirit.

G,
If you notice in the above, it states that we Christians believe in ONE GOD.

There can only be one God.
One Lord Jesus Christ, who was determined to be God, or we're worshipping a man which contradicts the Shema.
Jesus is NOT MADE, He is begotten - the ONLY and UNIQUE one - cosubstantial with the Father, who was incarnated and became man.

We also believe in the Holy Spirit, but less is said about Him at this point in history.

The following ecumenical councils sometimes worded it differently but still closely the same.

They are all official detailed explanations.
Then you have the functional understanding. The Catholic Church refers to the Trinity as God. And most Christians refer to the Trinity as God....not Gods as in

The above is also correct.
The Trinity is ONE GOD, consisting of 3 Persons.
It's important to know what PERSONS means.
Sometimes I think that some of us do not. Not necessarily You.

Three persons in one God is just a short definition that is reiterated in churches around the world. Actually the word person is ambiguous.

The word PERSON is very important in understanding the Trinity.
Here are a couple of links some might like to see:

...the Bible also indicates that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. For example, since the Father sent the Son into the world (John 3:16), He cannot be the same person as the Son. Likewise, after the Son returned to the Father (John 16:10), the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit into the world (John 14:26; Acts 2:33). Therefore, the Holy Spirit must be distinct from the Father and the Son.

In the baptism of Jesus, we see the Father speaking from heaven and the Spirit descending from heaven in the form of a dove as Jesus comes out of the water (Mark 1:10-11). In John 1:1 it is affirmed that Jesus is God and, at the same time, that He was “with God”- thereby indicating that Jesus is a distinct Person from God the Father (cf. also 1:18). And in John 16:13-15 we see that although there is a close unity between them all, the Holy Spirit is also distinct from the Father and the Son.

The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.
source: https://www.cru.org/us/en/train-and...that there is one,essence and three in person.

I believe in three separate Gods united in the Godhead.

"Three separate Gods united in the Godhead"
Why not make it THREE SEPARATE PERSONS united in the Godhead?
Then it would be right ... otherwise you're creating 3 GODS, and there is only One God.

Would you consider the Godhead to be God Almighty, The Great I Am, Yahweh?
And the other two would be PART of the Godhead?
Maybe this is close. I wonder what Free would have to say about this...

(I know you don't want to post to him, but I do have to say that in this particular Forum, we should answer other member's questions unless you report them for being nasty and breaking the TOS rules. We consider this to be a very serious forum and we ask that the rules be adhered to. I write this also for the benefit of others that might be reading along.
)

And I do believe in a hierarchal relationship with Yahweh as Almighty God and Supreme.
I believe that Yeshua and the Holy Spirit are full fledged Gods in their own right.
I believe that Yeshua sits on a throne to the right of Yahweh.

The are co-equal in nature and substance.
How could there be a Big God and a Little God?

It can be said that Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit are all spirits but the Holy Spirit is not any more a spirit than the other two Gods. Because they did not give the Holy Spirit a name people keyed on the spirit aspect. All three are full fledged Gods with separate minds and separate presence, just as when Yeshua walked on earth He at times referred to His Father in Heaven. And Yeshua acknowledge that His Father knew things that He did not and His Father had authority that He did not have so when Yeshua said the Father is greater than I....it makes sense.

That's only when Jesus was on earth.

As to the minds, the 3 Persons have their own will and mind,
but they are UNITED in mind in every way (for instance in their goal for humans).


This link has to do with Personhood:

Nerdfighteria Wiki - Personhood: Crash Course Philosophy #21

Personhood: Crash Course Philosophy #21

nerdfighteria.info

 

[Free]

G,
If you notice in the above, it states that we Christians believe in ONE GOD.

There can only be one God.
One Lord Jesus Christ, who was determined to be God, or we're worshipping a man which contradicts the Shema.
Jesus is NOT MADE, He is begotten - the ONLY and UNIQUE one - cosubstantial with the Father, who was incarnated and became man.

We also believe in the Holy Spirit, but less is said about Him at this point in history.

Agreed. The OT states there is one God and quotes God himself stating he is the only one and there never will be another. The NT affirms that there is only one God, as it should. This is why the Nicene Creed and then the Athanasian Creeds both affirm that there is only one God.

The above is also correct.
The Trinity is ONE GOD, consisting of 3 Persons.
It's important to know what PERSONS means.
Sometimes I think that some of us do not. Not necessarily You.



The word PERSON is very important in understanding the Trinity.
Here are a couple of links some might like to see:

...the Bible also indicates that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. For example, since the Father sent the Son into the world (John 3:16), He cannot be the same person as the Son. Likewise, after the Son returned to the Father (John 16:10), the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit into the world (John 14:26; Acts 2:33). Therefore, the Holy Spirit must be distinct from the Father and the Son.

In the baptism of Jesus, we see the Father speaking from heaven and the Spirit descending from heaven in the form of a dove as Jesus comes out of the water (Mark 1:10-11). In John 1:1 it is affirmed that Jesus is God and, at the same time, that He was “with God”- thereby indicating that Jesus is a distinct Person from God the Father (cf. also 1:18). And in John 16:13-15 we see that although there is a close unity between them all, the Holy Spirit is also distinct from the Father and the Son.

The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.
source: https://www.cru.org/us/en/train-and-grow/spiritual-growth/core-christian-beliefs/understanding-the-trinity.html#:~:text=The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one,essence and three in person.


"Three separate Gods united in the Godhead"
Why not make it THREE SEPARATE PERSONS united in the Godhead?
Then it would be right ... otherwise you're creating 3 GODS, and there is only One God.

Exactly. Based on what Scripture says, the only explanation that fits is three persons within the one being that is God. The distinction between God (substance) and persons is essential. We cannot say three persons in one person or three Gods in one God, as both are contradictions. Nor can we say three Gods in one person.

Would you consider the Godhead to be God Almighty, The Great I Am, Yahweh?
And the other two would be PART of the Godhead?
Maybe this is close. I wonder what Free would have to say about this...

I do consider that Yahweh is the Trinity; I cannot see how the Father alone can be Yahweh, as some claim. We also cannot say that the Son or the Holy Spirit came into being at some point in time, as that would mean they cannot, by definition, be God. We cannot say they are lesser gods, as that again is polytheism, and even Gnosticism.

We have to understand that each of the three persons is truly and fully God, but they are eternally distinct one from the other. It follows then that we have to be careful in thinking that any one or two of the persons are a part of the Godhead, in the sense that if we removed one, the Godhead would cease to be or would be incomplete. If we are talking about pie, then taking one piece of a whole pie would cause the pie to be incomplete. But not so with God; removing one person would not cause God to cease to be truly and fully God.

Here is most of the Athanasian Creed which really gets in the details:

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten,but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal,and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

https://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

Is it complicated and fully beyond our comprehension? Yes. Is it biblical? Also yes.

 

[Grailhunter]

G,
If you notice in the above, it states that we Christians believe in ONE GOD.

There can only be one God.
One Lord Jesus Christ, who was determined to be God, or we're worshipping a man which contradicts the Shema.
Jesus is NOT MADE, He is begotten - the ONLY and UNIQUE one - cosubstantial with the Father, who was incarnated and became man.

We also believe in the Holy Spirit, but less is said about Him at this point in history.



The above is also correct.
The Trinity is ONE GOD, consisting of 3 Persons.
It's important to know what PERSONS means.
Sometimes I think that some of us do not. Not necessarily You.



The word PERSON is very important in understanding the Trinity.
Here are a couple of links some might like to see:

...the Bible also indicates that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. For example, since the Father sent the Son into the world (John 3:16), He cannot be the same person as the Son. Likewise, after the Son returned to the Father (John 16:10), the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit into the world (John 14:26; Acts 2:33). Therefore, the Holy Spirit must be distinct from the Father and the Son.

In the baptism of Jesus, we see the Father speaking from heaven and the Spirit descending from heaven in the form of a dove as Jesus comes out of the water (Mark 1:10-11). In John 1:1 it is affirmed that Jesus is God and, at the same time, that He was “with God”- thereby indicating that Jesus is a distinct Person from God the Father (cf. also 1:18). And in John 16:13-15 we see that although there is a close unity between them all, the Holy Spirit is also distinct from the Father and the Son.

The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.
source: https://www.cru.org/us/en/train-and-grow/spiritual-growth/core-christian-beliefs/understanding-the-trinity.html#:~:text=The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one,essence and three in person.


"Three separate Gods united in the Godhead"
Why not make it THREE SEPARATE PERSONS united in the Godhead?
Then it would be right ... otherwise you're creating 3 GODS, and there is only One God.

Would you consider the Godhead to be God Almighty, The Great I Am, Yahweh?
And the other two would be PART of the Godhead?
Maybe this is close. I wonder what Free would have to say about this...

(I know you don't want to post to him, but I do have to say that in this particular Forum, we should answer other member's questions unless you report them for being nasty and breaking the TOS rules. We consider this to be a very serious forum and we ask that the rules be adhered to. I write this also for the benefit of others that might be reading along.
)


The are co-equal in nature and substance.
How could there be a Big God and a Little God?


That's only when Jesus was on earth.

As to the minds, the 3 Persons have their own will and mind,
but they are UNITED in mind in every way (for instance in their goal for humans).


This link has to do with Personhood:

Nerdfighteria Wiki - Personhood: Crash Course Philosophy #21

Personhood: Crash Course Philosophy #21

nerdfighteria.info

Like I said I am not going to debate on this forum.
And some of those quotes of mine were about what the Catholics believe.
And in my essay I explained it three ways to Sunday so that is enough.
Love and respect and admire you so no harm no foul....have a good day.

 

[Grailhunter]

The funny thing about the words heresy and heretics is that truly they are Catholic terms.
Meaning the Catholic Church originally coined and defined these terms.
And according to them all Protestants are heretics. But then now a days the Vatican has softened it position on this.
Now a days the term just means....I do not like your beliefs. LOL

 

[Grailhunter]

A lot of the false beliefs are so influential that they override the scriptures. In that a person with a mind full of false beliefs cannot even read the scriptures and understand them because of the preconceived notions that are running around in their heads that act as overriding redirects of thoughts back to the false beliefs.

The false doctrine of the Trinity is a good example because it skews the meaning of most of the significant scriptures in the Gospels. And it ends up as a quagmire of sort in the mind that prevents any scriptural understanding of these scriptures.

It’s a quagmire, and a mental juggling act of the reality of what is going on in the Gospels. People deal with it in different ways but when they try to explain what is going on in their minds its sound like some far out fantasy world. But it does go along with the concept believed by some that if it makes no sense….that is the qualifying factor that it is true and of the Divine. Like God gave us the scripture to confuse us.

I will give you some examples but do not try to answer or explain them because it will sound like Hocus Pocus from a mind of kaleidoscope images
For example what is going on in peoples minds when they read…..

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Do they think that Yahweh gave Himself?
Do they think that Yahweh begot Himself?
….whoever believe in Him….Believe in Yeshua or believe in Yahweh?

Do they think that when Yeshua is talking to Yahweh is He talking to Himself? And do they need to talk if they are the same…..

Do they think that when Christ said, The Father is greater than I….was He talking about Himself? How can you be greater than yourself?

When Christ referred to His Father in Heaven Do they think that He talking about Himself being in Heaven?

The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
The event of Christ’s conception….Which one was which? Should we rename Yahweh the Son of God Yeshua? Was Christ impregnating Miriam? Did Yahweh take up residence in Miriam womb?

What are they thinking when the scriptures say that Yahweh gave all authority to Yeshua. Did Yahweh give all authority to Himself? Did Yeshua give all authority to Himself? Wouldn’t He already have it if He was Himself? So why would He need to give it?

When James and John, the sons of Zebedee, asked if they would be permitted to sit on Yeshua’s right and on His left in Heaven.
Do they think when He answered and said….to sit on My right or on My left, this is not Mine to give. Was it one side of His mind that did not have the authority to the other side of His mind that had authority? And if so why couldn’t He give Himself authority?

When Christ was talking about the end of time and said only the Father knew when these things would happeen…Did one side of his mind know and the other side didn’t?

I count 50 scriptures that Yeshua refers to My Father or My Father in Heaven…Do they think He is referring to Himself?

Do they think when Yeshua said, The Father is greater than I. Was He referring to Himself? How could He be greater than Himself?

When Yeshua was praying to Yahweh in the Garden of Gethsemane and…. And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.
What do they think….He was praying to Himself? Was He asking Himself questions? Whose will was He talking about?

I count about a dozen scriptures where Yeshua is referring to the will of the Father…some of them say that Yeshua does the will the Father. Is this Yeshua will or Yahweh’s will? Was Yeshua serving His own will?

When Yeshua refers to the Temple sometimes He refers to it as His Father’s Temple not His….Does the title have both names on it? LOL

Then also Yeshua said, In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. Again do they think that My Father mean Myself?

When Yeshua is saying He will ascend to the Father….Do they think He is ascending to Himself?

When the scripture refer to Yeshua sitting to the right of Yahweh….Do they think that they both sit to the right of Yahweh? Are they sitting in each others laps?

When Christ was on the cross and at the end cried out…. ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”
Do they think He was talking to Himself? How could He forsake Himself? And why would He want to? And how could He?

Christ said, I and the Father are one. And then He had a conversation with His Father where He explains this oneness….
Speaking to God the Father (He is not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one...John 17:21 “that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church being one.

And then Paul explains it this way, the leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”

 

[Free]

A lot of the false beliefs are so influential that they override the scriptures. In that a person with a mind full of false beliefs cannot even read the scriptures and understand them because of the preconceived notions that are running around in their heads that act as overriding redirects of thoughts back to the false beliefs.

The false doctrine of the Trinity is a good example because it skews the meaning of most of the significant scriptures in the Gospels. And it ends up as a quagmire of sort in the mind that prevents any scriptural understanding of these scriptures.

It’s a quagmire, and a mental juggling act of the reality of what is going on in the Gospels. People deal with it in different ways but when they try to explain what is going on in their minds its sound like some far out fantasy world. But it does go along with the concept believed by some that if it makes no sense….that is the qualifying factor that it is true and of the Divine. Like God gave us the scripture to confuse us.

I will give you some examples but do not try to answer or explain them because it will sound like Hocus Pocus from a mind of kaleidoscope images
For example what is going on in peoples minds when they read…..

You might want to rethink this intro based on the following.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Do they think that Yahweh gave Himself?
Do they think that Yahweh begot Himself?

This is all begging the question, but only because I know your position. You're beginning with the assumption that Yahweh is unitarian. Technically, however, the answers are yes, because the Father begat the Son and gave his Son. There are three persons within the one being that is God.

….whoever believe in Him….Believe in Yeshua or believe in Yahweh?

Again, begging the question. In John 3:16 it clearly is referring to the Son. But also, it's both:

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (ESV)

Do they think that when Yeshua is talking to Yahweh is He talking to Himself? And do they need to talk if they are the same…..

Fallaciously begging the question and a straw man.

Do they think that when Christ said, The Father is greater than I….was He talking about Himself? How can you be greater than yourself?

Straw man.

When Christ referred to His Father in Heaven Do they think that He talking about Himself being in Heaven?

Straw man.

The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
The event of Christ’s conception….Which one was which? Should we rename Yahweh the Son of God Yeshua? Was Christ impregnating Miriam? Did Yahweh take up residence in Miriam womb?

Fallaciously begging the question and a straw man.

What are they thinking when the scriptures say that Yahweh gave all authority to Yeshua. Did Yahweh give all authority to Himself? Wouldn’t He already have it if He was Himself? So why would He need to give it?

Fallaciously begging the question and a straw man.

When James and John, the sons of Zebedee, asked if they would be permitted to sit on Yeshua’s right and on His left in Heaven.
Do they think when He answered and said….to sit on My right or on My left, this is not Mine to give. Was it one side of His mind that did not have the authority to the other side of His mind that had authority? And if so why couldn’t give Himself authority?

Straw man.

When Christ was talking about the end of time and said only the Father knew when these things would happeen…Did one side of his mind know and the other side didn’t?

Straw man.

I count 50 scriptures that Yeshua refers to My Father or My Father in Heaven…Do they think He is referring to Himself?

Straw man.

Do they think when Yeshua said, The Father is greater than I. Was He referring to Himself? How could He be greater than Himself?

Straw man.

When Yeshua was praying to Yahweh in the Garden of Gethsemane and…. And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.
What do they think….He was praying to Himself? Was He asking Himself questions? Whose will was He talking about?

Straw man.

I count about a dozen scriptures where Yeshua is referring to the will of the Father…some of them say that Yeshua does the will the Father. Is this Yeshua will or Yahweh’s will? Was Yeshua serving His own will?

Fallaciously begging the question and a straw man.

When Yeshua refers to the Temple sometimes He refers to it as His Father’s Temple not His….Does the title have both names on it? LOL

Fallaciously begging the question and a straw man.

Then also Yeshua said, In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. Again do they think that My Father mean Myself?

Straw man.

When Yeshua is saying He will ascend to the Father….Do they think He is ascending to Himself?

Straw man.

When the scripture refer to Yeshua sitting to the right of Yahweh….Do they think that they both sit to the right of Yahweh? Are they sitting in each others laps?

Fallaciously begging the question and a straw man.

When Christ was on the cross and at the end cried out…. ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”
Do they think He was talking to Himself? How could He forsake Himself? And why would He want to? And how could He?

Straw man.

Christ said, I and the Father are one. And then He had a conversation with His Father where He explains this oneness….
Speaking to God the Father (He is not talking to Himself) Yeshua says

Straw man.

Your entire post is based on fallacious reasoning. Again, if you want to argue against the Trinity, then argue against what the doctrine actually states, not your straw man version. Not a single thing above proves the Trinity false. Not one. It only shows that you do not understand the very thing you argue against.

 

[Grailhunter]

You might want to rethink this intro based on the following.


This is all begging the question, but only because I know your position. You're beginning with the assumption that Yahweh is unitarian. Technically, however, the answers are yes, because the Father begat the Son and gave his Son. There are three persons within the one being that is God.


Again, begging the question. In John 3:16 it clearly is referring to the Son. But also, it's both:

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (ESV)


Fallaciously begging the question and a straw man.


Straw man.


Straw man.


Fallaciously begging the question and a straw man.


Fallaciously begging the question and a straw man.


Straw man.


Straw man.


Straw man.


Straw man.


Straw man.


Fallaciously begging the question and a straw man.


Fallaciously begging the question and a straw man.


Straw man.


Straw man.


Fallaciously begging the question and a straw man.


Straw man.


Straw man.

Your entire post is based on fallacious reasoning. Again, if you want to argue against the Trinity, then argue against what the doctrine actually states, not your straw man version. Not a single thing above proves the Trinity false. Not one. It only shows that you do not understand the very thing you argue against.

LOL I will give it to you that you are funny!
But again do not talk to me!

 

[Free]

LOL I will give it to you that you are funny!
But again do not talk to me!

It's true. If you want to be in the Apologetics forum and debate the Trinity, then debate the actual doctrine of the Trinity, not your straw man version. If you don't want to debate it, then maybe this forum is not for you.

 

[Grailhunter]

It's true. If you want to be in the Apologetics forum and debate the Trinity, then debate the actual doctrine of the Trinity, not your straw man version. If you don't want to debate it, then maybe this forum is not for you.

Ha Ha! Again how times do I have to tell to stop talking to me. I guess the rules of this forum allow harassment?

 

[GodsGrace]

Ha Ha! Again how times do I have to tell to stop talking to me. I guess the rules of this forum allow harassment?

B,
Free is the Admin and is just advising you of the rules. I'm the mod here and have explained the same.
Catch you later...

 

[Randy]

Ha Ha! Again how times do I have to tell to stop talking to me. I guess the rules of this forum allow harassment?

The Trinity states the Father and Son are distinct persons of the Godhead. So showing Jesus is not the Father doesn't argue against that point.


con·sub·stan·tial
/ˌkänsəbˈstan(t)SH(ə)l/
adjective

1. of the same substance or essence (used especially of the three persons of the Trinity in Christian theology).
   "Christ is consubstantial with the Father"
   

---

 

[Grailhunter]

B,
Free is the Admin and is just advising you of the rules. I'm the mod here and have explained the same.
Catch you later...

Alright listen up! He did not advise me of the rules he has been harassing me. Is there a rule about that? There is no rule that you have to debate.

 

[Grailhunter]

The Trinity states the Father and Son are distinct persons of the Godhead. So showing Jesus is not the Father doesn't argue against that point.


con·sub·stan·tial
/ˌkänsəbˈstan(t)SH(ə)l/
adjective

1. of the same substance or essence (used especially of the three persons of the Trinity in Christian theology).
   "Christ is consubstantial with the Father"

---

So do you say God or Gods? That will tell you something about your own beliefs of the Trinity.

The McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.” Which holds true to the fact that the word Trinity does not occur in the Holy Bible.

4th and 5th centuries because it is a Catholic Doctrine that the Protestant were hoodwicked into believing.

 

[Randy]

So do you say God or Gods? That will tell you something about your own beliefs of the Trinity.

The McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.” Which holds true to the fact that the word Trinity does not occur in the Holy Bible.

4th and 5th centuries because it is a Catholic Doctrine that the Protestant were hoodwicked into believing.

ME?
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

I state to you the eternal life found in the Son, (all the fullness of God), is the One true unbegotten God, the Father. (Col 1:19). Therefore the only begotten like to like Son has the nature of God but is a firstborn Son. (before all things) and through whom all those things came by the will and command of God the Father from whom all those things came. So as Jesus taught He and the Father are one which defines Jesus as the First and Last.

Why would I state the Spirit of the only true God, the Father, is a person? The nature of the Fathers Spirit would be the Fathers nature. (God)

He's not speaking of life in the flesh as people live apart from our faith.

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

 

[Grailhunter]

ME?
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

I state to you the eternal life found in the Son, (all the fullness of God), is the One true unbegotten God, the Father. (Col 1:19). Therefore the only begotten like to like Son has the nature of God but is a firstborn Son. (before all things) and through whom all those things came by the will and command of God the Father from whom all those things came. So as Jesus taught He and the Father are one which defines Jesus as the First and Last.

Why would I state the Spirit of the only true God, the Father, is a person? The nature of the Fathers Spirit would be the Fathers nature. (God)

He's not speaking of life in the flesh as people live apart from our faith.

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

Kool

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey All,
I have used this as an example before. Let's see if we can plug it in here:

Trinity is a word used to express the doctrine of the oneness of God as existing within the three distinct Persons (or personalities) of the one

I read thru quick and I think I agree, but the above should b e
Three Persons existing in One God.

Also, personality is different than Person.
I think part of the problem we're having is not understanding what a Person is.
The 3 Persons have the mind and will of God but are distinct nonetheless.

Here's a link again:

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons​

The Bible speaks of the Father as God (Phil. 1:2), Jesus as God (Titus 2:13), and the Holy Spirit as God (Acts 5:3-4). Are these just three different ways of looking at God, or simply ways of referring to three different roles that God plays?
The answer must be no, because the Bible also indicates that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. For example, since the Father sent the Son into the world (John 3:16), He cannot be the same person as the Son. Likewise, after the Son returned to the Father (John 16:10), the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit into the world (John 14:26; Acts 2:33). Therefore, the Holy Spirit must be distinct from the Father and the Son.
In the baptism of Jesus, we see the Father speaking from heaven and the Spirit descending from heaven in the form of a dove as Jesus comes out of the water (Mark 1:10-11). In John 1:1 it is affirmed that Jesus is God and, at the same time, that He was “with God”- thereby indicating that Jesus is a distinct Person from God the Father (cf. also 1:18). And in John 16:13-15 we see that although there is a close unity between them all, the Holy Spirit is also distinct from the Father and the Son.
The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.

source: https://www.cru.org/us/en/train-and...that there is one,essence and three in person.​

God. It is originates from the Greek word "trias." The first time "trias" was used was by Theophilus around 168-183 A D. The first time for the Latin term "trinitas" was by Tertullian in 220A.D. to express the Trinity doctrine. We can break down the doctrine to these four points:
1. There is only one God (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29, 32).
2. The Father is God and is a divine Person or Personality distinguishablly different from the Son and the Holy Spirit. (Exo. 4:22-24, Isa. 44:6. 1Cor.8:6)
3. Jesus Christ is equally God, and is a Person distinguishablly different from the Father and the Holy Spirit. (Deut. 18:15, Dan. 3:23-24, John 1.1; 14, John 5:18)
4. The Holy Spirit is equally God and a divine person distinguishally different from the Father and the Son. ( Genesis 1:2, Isa. 63:14, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4)

The doctrine of the Trinity was developed to help people understand the relationship between God as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Remember that, at this time 168-183 A.D., believers did not have access to a completed Bible as we do. They received their teaching through oral communication. So doctrines were introduced to help believers retain critical information.

Agreed.
And important to note that the Trinity idea was being discussed from the beginning.
But it was difficult to come to a proper definition.
Christians were being persecuted, and even the leaders of this movement were being persecuted.
There were different heresies being preached and I'd say that the hands of the Christian leaders were full.
Not to mention the time it took for ideas to travel back then.
The 100's and 200's (2nd and 3rd centuries) were considered, and are considered, to be very close to Jesus' time.

So how can three distinct persons be one distinct person? This doesn't seem possible. How can three ones be one in total?

1 • One • I = 1 or One or I.

I can multiply any form of one in any order. Each of the ones are separate, distinct unto itself, number, word, or roman numeral,
yet they all equal each other to the point that any form may be used as the answer. That is probably as close as I can get to explaining the doctrine of the Trinity.

Bad at Math, but I'll trust you on this.

Have I fully explained the Trinity? Qf course not. How can the finite (me) fully describe the infinite (God)? I hope this helps a little in the discussion. Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Very good post.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey All,
In the original post, Bible asks "How do you defend the trinity from the Bible alone " To get us back on topic, I wrote this. Critique as you will.
The Holy Spirit is easy. Acts 5:3-4:

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

So lying to the Holy Ghost is equal to lying to God. There is no dispute. If they are equal to each other, then they can be one and the same. 1 •One =I or One or I.
The dispute is always about Jesus. He never directly said, "I am God ."
I still say the Jews' action in John 8:58-59 Jesus proclaimed, The indicator that the Jews knew exactly what Jesus said was their action. They picked up rocks and told Jesus why. But this is unacceptable. So I am going to take a different approach.
Let me ask this. Who is the apostle John quoting in Revelation 1:8? Verse 7 tells us its the person "who was pierced." I have several translations. Please pay particular attention to the prepositional phrase, "says the Lord God," and the tag line at the end, "the Almighty."

Revelation 1:8
ESV
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
NIV
I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.'
NASB
I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'
CSB
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "the one who is, who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
NLT
I am the Alpha and the Omega — the beginning and the end,' says the Lord God. 'I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come — the Almighty One.'
KJV
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Who is saying, "says the Lord God?" The question is rhetorical because the verse answers itself.
The same is true for who is calling themselves "the Almighty." The Almighty is calling Himself "the Almighty. The same person calling Himself the Lord God, and the Almighty. How can this be? We know John is only speaking for one person, right? There is only one Almighty. Another clue to the puzzle. The Almighty and the Lord God are one. Yet there are two distinct names.

All of them save the KJV says "the Lord God" for the prepositional phrase.
All of them save the NLT uses " the Almighty" at the end of the verse.
So rather than argue about them, let's just ignore them. That still leaves four that read exactly the same way for those two points in the verse. How is there any question about who is speaking?

Now let's look at Revelation 22:12-13:

Revelation 22:12-13 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

I know some of us still don't know who this is, can we at least agree that this is the same person as who was in Revelation 1:8? The person is using the same introduction. We further know that this person is bringing their reward with them. They have the right to pass said reward on to every man according to his work. How many people can do this? Only one I can think of. Now we get to verse 16.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Is there any question about who is saying it now?
The person identifies himself by name as Jesus.
Who is also both the root and offspring of David?
One author, one book, personal proclamation.
He uses Jesus' personal identifiers.
who was pierced
Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the ending,
saith the Lord,
which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty
the first and the last.
I come quickly
bringing their reward with them.
the root and offspring of David?
If this is not Jesus, who is it?
May God bless,
Taz

Again, a great post!