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How was the Thief on the Cross Saved?

  • Thread starter TruthSeeker2012
  • Start date
francisdesales said:
Not at all. The issue is not a contradiction. It is a paradox, as many articles of the Christian faith happen to be. I have included a simple analogy that explains my point of view. I would ask that you re-read it and apply it, if you are really interested in figuring this out...
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I read you example and it has no bearing on a change of course here. Your basic premise remains the same. Faith is not a paradox it is a simple matter of man being born in a decieved state under the power of Satan and God opening a mans eyes to the truth by the power of His Holy Spirit by which a man may have faith and be saved.

It really is that simple, it is not complicated, me thinks thou dost want to hold onto the vestige of pride!

Sorry Francis your works have nothing to do with being saved, its out of your hands!


I don't. You simply do not understand my point.
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I understand you point, you are attempting to make salvation a 'gift' that someone has to 'work' for!

What is it a 'gift' or 'wages'?

That is poor logic. There is a difference between ignorance and outright rejection. It is the later who will be condemned, as per John 3. Only those who reject the Gospel are disqualified. Those ignorant are in the hands of God, only He can judge whether they are "qualified" or not.
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Logic has no bearing on the truth. The truth is what it is and logic will always fail, it is a fallen means of discernment.

Ignorance is equal to God not opening a mans eyes therefore that man has not had salvation bestowed upon him. Rejection will happen as a matter of ignorance to the truth, fallen logic will dictate that!

Dead simple, not complicated- very easy, unless it offends fallen pride and the logic thereof.
 
Levi said:
I read you example and it has no bearing on a change of course here. Your basic premise remains the same. Faith is not a paradox it is a simple matter of man being born in a decieved state under the power of Satan and God opening a mans eyes to the truth by the power of His Holy Spirit by which a man may have faith and be saved.
Click to expand...
Are you adding a Calvinistic view to the discussion??? Not ALL become saved according to Scripture. Your saying that God opens a mans eyes to see truth and then a man may have faith etc. Are you saying that God does this for every man or just those He chooses to Save??? By what you have stated, you leave no room for "interaction" between man and God...
 
Levi said:
I read you example and it has no bearing on a change of course here. Your basic premise remains the same. Faith is not a paradox it is a simple matter of man being born in a decieved state under the power of Satan and God opening a mans eyes to the truth by the power of His Holy Spirit by which a man may have faith and be saved.

It really is that simple, it is not complicated, me thinks thou dost want to hold onto the vestige of pride!

Sorry Francis your works have nothing to do with being saved, its out of your hands!


I understand you point, you are attempting to make salvation a 'gift' that someone has to 'work' for!

What is it a 'gift' or 'wages'?

Logic has no bearing on the truth. The truth is what it is and logic will always fail, it is a fallen means of discernment.

Ignorance is equal to God not opening a mans eyes therefore that man has not had salvation bestowed upon him. Rejection will happen as a matter of ignorance to the truth, fallen logic will dictate that!

Dead simple, not complicated- very easy, unless it offends fallen pride and the logic thereof.
Click to expand...

Truth and logic are aligned where God's Salvation message is concerned. How do you come to the conclusion that, "logic fails" even within the confines of this subject???
 
Levi said:
I read you example and it has no bearing on a change of course here. Your basic premise remains the same. Faith is not a paradox it is a simple matter of man being born in a decieved state under the power of Satan and God opening a mans eyes to the truth by the power of His Holy Spirit by which a man may have faith and be saved.

It really is that simple, it is not complicated, me thinks thou dost want to hold onto the vestige of pride!

Sorry Francis your works have nothing to do with being saved, its out of your hands!
Click to expand...

Methinks you have a serious issue with reading comprehension.

I have already stated that NOTHING I do can save me. My signature line, which has remained unchanged for several years, states the same thing. I have posted nearly a dozen times already that deny this idea. Am I dealing with a teenager or what?

How many times must I say it before it registers upstairs??? :nono2
 
Grubal Muruch said:
That one you speak of has, "rejected" God's offer of Salvation. Lying plays no part...
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Respectfully, I can appreciate your answer but it is not been ascertained that all men can even see the Truth so as to be able to even choose to believe. Because they are under a falsehood, as was agreed by you in your earlier post; "If you do not except truth, then you WILL except a lie. That's the way we humans roll"...However us being under a lie already so as to be presented with the Truth, must be convinced of the Truth.

Therefore since Satan is the Spirit who deceives man, he is behind the coordinated persecution of the Christ and his apostles, and presently persecutes the witnesses to the Truth. Because he holds power by lies. Lies regarding morality are spiritual in nature because they corrupt the True Image of God. Therefore lies are relevant and presently active when the Truth is presented. This is self-evident.

So if one is blind to the Truth thinking they already have the truth, the evidence that men are free to choose to see is not credible. Because we know men who persecute the Christ are doing so believing they have chosen to serve God. Subsequently and after this manner Jesus was crucified by both religious and secular powers. And yet Jesus said, forgive them they know not what they do. There is spiritual deception playing a part.

I have asked in another post pertaining to this,"by what authority does man deny the authority of God?" The belief they are free to choose to deny Him and live is the only answer I can come up with. And this was the same lie said from the beginning. But this is getting off topic. Just thought I'd explain myself.
 
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childeye said:
Respectfully, I can appreciate your answer but it is not been ascertained that all men can even see the Truth so as to be able to even choose to believe. Because they are under a falsehood, as was agreed by you in your earlier post; "If you do not except truth, then you WILL except a lie. That's the way we humans roll"...However us being under a lie already so as to be presented with the Truth, must be convinced of the Truth.

Therefore since Satan is the Spirit who deceives man, he is behind the coordinated persecution of the Christ and his apostles, and presently persecutes the witnesses to the Truth. Because he holds power by lies. Lies regarding morality are spiritual in nature because they corrupt the True Image of God. Therefore lies are relevant and presently active when the Truth is presented. This is self-evident.

So if one is blind to the Truth thinking they already have the truth, the evidence that men are free to choose to see is not credible. Because we know men who persecute the Christ are doing so believing they have chosen to serve God. Subsequently and after this manner Jesus was crucified by both religious and secular powers. And yet Jesus said, forgive them they know not what they do. There is spiritual deception playing a part.

I have asked in another post pertaining to this,"by what authority does man deny the authority of God?" The belief they are free to choose to deny Him and live is the only answer I can come up with. And this was the same lie said from the beginning. But this is getting off topic. Just thought I'd explain myself.
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As the "Word" states, "Faith comes be hearing and hearing by the Word of God." When we hear the Word being spoken, we can choose to ignore it, disrespect it, minimize it, or seek out the truth in it further (Seek and you shall find) or receive it with joy and be regenerated. Not ALL people will receive eternal life through the shed blood of Christ. But there are other's that will. If we except Calvinism, then we have to believe God chooses who He wants to save (and they have no choice in the matter) the other's are damned. (also a choice of God.) We can choose to believe Calvin's view, or we can say that man has a free will to choose what he believes. It's one way or the other, either we have free choice or we are chosen to be a believer (by God) Free choice seems the logical choice, due to statements in the scripture that are perfectly aligned...
 
Grubal Muruch said:
As the "Word" states, "Faith comes be hearing and hearing by the Word of God." When we hear the Word being spoken, we can choose to ignore it, disrespect it, minimize it, or seek out the truth in it further (Seek and you shall find) or receive it with joy and be regenerated. Not ALL people will receive eternal life through the shed blood of Christ. But there are other's that will. If we except Calvinism, then we have to believe God chooses who He wants to save (and they have no choice in the matter) the other's are damned. (also a choice of God.) We can choose to believe Calvin's view, or we can say that man has a free will to choose what he believes. It's one way or the other, either we have free choice or we are chosen to be a believer (by God) Free choice seems the logical choice, due to statements in the scripture that are perfectly aligned...
Click to expand...
A succinct and to the point post. You address the issue head on. I would have to ask where scripture aligns with free choice however, as faith comes by hearing is no different than saying one must hear it first before they can believe it. However hearing by the Word of God can be taken two ways. The Word being spoken in the Gospel or the Word in the heart that recognizes the Truth in the Gospel. Faith also is not a deliberation of reasoning faculties for God chose the lowly rich in faith and the Gospel resists the proud. Jesus said, bless you Father for you have revealed to babes what you have hidden from the learned and scholarly.

At any rate I appreciate your response. My desire was to point out that we should not make assertions based on presumptions. It is self-evident that those who distrust their own maker are corrupted with a false image of god and not what I would describe as free in their wills to freely choose. This is self-evident as I have already pointed out that those who crucified the Christ and killed the Apostles believed they had chosen God. Only Satan taught that a man could disobey God and live, for vanity began in Satan as far as we know. Don't get mad but consider forthrightly what I have pointed out. For it is True.
 
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TRUTH over TRADITION said:
Desires and will are products of being self aware and sentient, last we checked, amoebas do not qualify.
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Respectfully, desires and will are the same thing. desires and wills need not be self aware or sentient to occur as even amoebes have the base desire to eat and a will to live. Without any intent to be divisive here is what you asked, "What is freewill but the ability to act out one's desires up to the point of that individual's ability and authority?"
Amoebes would qualify. This actually helps make my point, because mankind does not have the authority to deny the authority of God Who is Spirit and all virtue. Only Satan taught that a man could disobey God and live, for vanity began in Satan as far as we know. Don't get mad but consider forthrightly what I have pointed out. For it is True.
 
childeye said:
desires and wills need not be self aware or sentient to occur as even amoebes have the base desire to eat and a will to live. Without any intent to be divisive here is what you asked, "What is freewill but the ability to act out one's desires up to the point of that individual's ability and authority?"
Amoebes would qualify. This actually helps make my point, because mankind does not have the authority to deny the authority of God Who is Spirit and all virtue. Only Satan taught that a man could disobey God and live, for vanity began in Satan as far as we know. Don't get mad but consider forthrightly what I have pointed out. For it is True.
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We definately disagree as the will is a product of self awareness and sentience. Where there is not sentience there is no will but rather instinct (amoeba) or a program (computer). Neither has a will or is sentient.
 
The thief recognized that he deserved his death. He then asked for mercy from Jesus who seemed to be in the same boat as He although innocent of any crime. So that took faith!!!!

Jesus responded with mercy!:)
 
Adullam said:
The thief recognized that he deserved his death. He then asked for mercy from Jesus who seemed to be in the same boat as He although innocent of any crime. So that took faith!!!!

Jesus responded with mercy!:)
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1. So was the thief saved by FAITH ALONE and not by any WORKS?

2. Are we saved by the same gospel as he was?
 
TRUTH over TRADITION said:
We definately disagree as the will is a product of self awareness and sentience. Where there is not sentience there is no will but rather instinct (amoeba) or a program (computer). Neither has a will or is sentient.
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Respecfully, I don't think we disagree on anything but are arguing semantics. You are equating will with sentience while I am defining will as desire. Sentience is being alive and aware of one's self and in this I agree. But as we know there is the will of the flesh which would be more akin to hunger and basic motivators such as pain and pleasure, and hence the term will is accurately defined as desire. Whereas sentience would refer to the soul which is a vessel of Spirit and therefore can be seperated from the will of the flesh with it's own will which is the person.
 
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childeye said:
A succinct and to the point post. You address the issue head on. I would have to ask where scripture aligns with free choice however, as faith comes by hearing is no different than saying one must hear it first before they can believe it. However hearing by the Word of God can be taken two ways. The Word being spoken in the Gospel or the Word in the heart that recognizes the Truth in the Gospel. Faith also is not a deliberation of reasoning faculties for God chose the lowly rich in faith and the Gospel resists the proud. Jesus said, bless you Father for you have revealed to babes what you have hidden from the learned and scholarly.

At any rate I appreciate your response. My desire was to point out that we should not make assertions based on presumptions. It is self-evident that those who distrust their own maker are corrupted with a false image of god and not what I would describe as free in their wills to freely choose. This is self-evident as I have already pointed out that those who crucified the Christ and killed the Apostles believed they had chosen God. Only Satan taught that a man could disobey God and live, for vanity began in Satan as far as we know. Don't get mad but consider forthrightly what I have pointed out. For it is True.
Click to expand...

First of all, a person, MUST hear about a subject before they can even begin to believe. An unspoken or unheard message is of no use without hearing about it first. This concept is shared in both the secular and religious world.

When you state, "The Word being spoken in the Gospel or the Word in the heart that recognizes the Truth in the Gospel." First of all, the message of God's Salvation (forgiveness, acceptance, eternal life, etc,.) has to first be heard. The second part of your statement says, "or the Word in the heart that recognizes the Truth in the Gospel." Until you've heard the Word (initially.) Then the work of the Holy Spirit takes that message, and convicts and speaks to the heart of man. But, man still has free will to accept or deny the truth of the message. We must first hear, then accept, then be regenerated. Although the Holy Spirit is in the world today speaking/convicting men's hearts there are still those who will receive Christ as Savior and those who will not.

I believe the Holy Spirit continues to speak to the hearts of those who continue to deny the message, several times during the course of their lives. God doesn't want any to perish.
 
Grubal Muruch said:
First of all, a person, MUST hear about a subject before they can even begin to believe. An unspoken or unheard message is of no use without hearing about it first. This concept is shared in both the secular and religious world.

When you state, "The Word being spoken in the Gospel or the Word in the heart that recognizes the Truth in the Gospel." First of all, the message of God's Salvation (forgiveness, acceptance, eternal life, etc,.) has to first be heard. The second part of your statement says, "or the Word in the heart that recognizes the Truth in the Gospel." Until you've heard the Word (initially.) Then the work of the Holy Spirit takes that message, and convicts and speaks to the heart of man. But, man still has free will to accept or deny the truth of the message. We must first hear, then accept, then be regenerated. Although the Holy Spirit is in the world today speaking/convicting men's hearts there are still those who will receive Christ as Savior and those who will not.

I believe the Holy Spirit continues to speak to the hearts of those who continue to deny the message, several times during the course of their lives. God doesn't want any to perish.
Click to expand...
I have no disagreement with what you are saying. It is not my opinion however that God chose the lowly rich in faith to put to naught the high things. Scripture teaches this more than once. And it is not my opinion that one must have the Love of God in the heart to believe in the Love of God come in the flesh. Jesus said that. So if we can choose to reject the Christ from a standpoint that qualifies as a free choice, this is contrary to Christ and his Apostles teaching and I am only agreeing with them. For it is clear to me why I believe now and why I didn't before. You are right that people reject the Truth even as Satan taught us that we were free to do so and why God's wrath is upon the ungodly.
 
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