How was the Thief on the Cross Saved?

[Webb]

TruthSeeker, are you "evading" post 87?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Not necessarily.

Now you back-flipped again.

Now you are indicating that the thief and deathbed salvation results from a DIFFERENT gospel to the one we are saved by..so in reality you are teaching MULTIPLE AND DIFFERENT GOSPELS and that means you are a FALSE TEACHER!

 

[francisdesales]

TruthSeeker, are you "evading" post 87?

The proper term is "running and hiding"

Funny how he brags about "honesty and directness" but then he mysteriously doesn't answer questions put to him that shoot down the pet theories...

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Note, an important issue. You cannot say "did NOT produce any good works", since you clearly don't know what he did prior to the cross. His words on the cross are evidence that he DID produce good works - according to John's Gospel, believing in the Christ Whom God sent is a work! Do you deny that?

Secondly, strictly speaking, he didn't produce any faith.

Does not the Bible state explicitly that Faith alone does not save? Yes or No? :p

You are so enamoured with bumper sticker theology cliches that you don't realize that faith alone does not save, either. Nothing "alone" saves but God's grace. Without that, you cannot be saved, even if you manufacture all the faith to move mountains.

Regards

Francis, let me say unequivocally, I REJECT your gospel that includes HUMAN EFFORT AND WORKS as part of the salvation process. I reject it and do not accept it ever!

Instead, I accept the Bible gospel which teaches me that I am saved by faith + grace alone and not works or human effort!

 

[Free]

Now you back-flipped again.

Now you are indicating that the thief and deathbed salvation results from a DIFFERENT gospel to the one we are saved by..so in reality you are teaching MULTIPLE AND DIFFERENT GOSPELS and that means you are a FALSE TEACHER!

Whatever. I didn't "back-flip" at all. I have never said there is another gospel by which one is saved. Please read what has been written by yourself and my responses.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

TruthSeeker--

Here is the proposition for your approval:

THE SCRIPTURES TEACH THAT THE ALIEN SINNER TODAY IS SAVED LIKE THE THIEF ON THE CROSS

Affirm: TruthSeeker 2012
Deny: Webb

If this doesn't meet your approval submit one that does for me to consider

My reply is.. that the exact same gospel which saved the thief is the exact same gospel that saves me and the rest of the redeemed throughout history!

 

[francisdesales]

Francis, let me say unequivocally, I REJECT your gospel that includes HUMAN EFFORT AND WORKS as part of the salvation process. I reject it and do not accept it ever!

Whatever. You reject the Scriptures as well, as already pointed out. In addition, upon closer inspection, you DO rely on your own efforts. You call it "faith alone". Your faith and God's grace.

Instead, I accept the Bible gospel which teaches me that I am saved by faith + grace alone and not works or human effort!

Don't bear false witness again.

The bible states explicitly that you are NOT saved by faith alone. Yes or no?

Regards

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Whatever. I didn't "back-flip" at all. I have never said there is another gospel by which one is saved. Please read what has been written by yourself and my responses.

Let's see if you really mean that by asking you a question:

Do you believe a Christian today can be saved by faith + grace alone and no works whatsoever? yes or no?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Whatever. You reject the Scriptures as well, as already pointed out. In addition, upon closer inspection, you DO rely on your own efforts. You call it "faith alone". Your faith and God's grace.



Don't bear false witness again.

The bible states explicitly that you are NOT saved by faith alone. Yes or no?

Regards

I completely disagree with your comments!

1. Just because I teach the true gospel of faith + grace alone, you claim that I reject Scripture, but the reality is that I am rejecting the Catholic gospel, not Scripture, and the 2 contradict each other.

2. I have been told by other Catholics in the past that I bear false witness when I teach the true gospel and the reason is that Catholics believe and follow a false gospel taught by the Pope and other RCC leaders and not Scripture nor Jesus.

3. No! The Bible says we are saved by faith alone:

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

 

[Webb]

TruthSeeker--Is your post # 106 the proposition you will affirm in the debate forum? If so I will oblige. Your proposition is then as follows:

''THE EXACT SAME GOSPEL WHICH SAVED THE THIEF IS THE EXACT SAME GOSPEL THAT SAVES ME AND THE REST OF THE REDEEMED THROUGHOUT HISTORY!"

To be affirmed by TruthSeeker2012
To be denied by Webb

I present this for your approval

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

TruthSeeker--Is your post # 106 the proposition you will affirm in the debate forum? If so I will oblige. Your proposition is then as follows:

''THE EXACT SAME GOSPEL WHICH SAVED THE THIEF IS THE EXACT SAME GOSPEL THAT SAVES ME AND THE REST OF THE REDEEMED THROUGHOUT HISTORY!"

To be affirmed by TruthSeeker2012
To be denied by Webb

I present this for your approval

Approved! If it's not, then that means there exists DIFFERENT gospels!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Indeed, and pray tell, where does that faith come from? You yourself? This is why Paul wrote to the Ephesians that men CANNOT boast - to include about their faith.

Faith itself is a gift. We are dealing with mystery here, let us tread carefully.

Faith does not earn salvation. Why? Because it is a gift, and we can do nothing salvific without God, to include having faith in Him.

Strictly speaking, faith alone does not save, because THAT is ALSO from God! Nothing can save us of our own manufacture.

My signature line says it all. WHATEVER is good in you. This is nothing new.

Regards

God has given each human being, that's born into this world, an ability (free will) to choose where they want to apply their faith. Some choose riches, some choose Atheism, occultism, false cults, Science, the list goes on and on. But God has given ALL men the ability to choose where they place their faith. The kind of faith that saves, is the faith placed in the Atonement of Christ (The ultimate sacrifice) that takes away all sin. The Bible states, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God..." The Bible also states, " One Lord one faith one Baptism (Baptism by the Spirit) Romans 10:17 & Ephesians 4:5

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So according to Ephesians, we are saved by grace--through the placement of our faith--and not by our own works---for it is a gift of God. What is the gift of God in this verse---The answer is, GRACE...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

My reply is.. that the exact same gospel which saved the thief is the exact same gospel that saves me and the rest of the redeemed throughout history!

AMEN...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Whatever. You reject the Scriptures as well, as already pointed out. In addition, upon closer inspection, you DO rely on your own efforts. You call it "faith alone". Your faith and God's grace.



Don't bear false witness again.

The bible states explicitly that you are NOT saved by faith alone. Yes or no?

Regards

Those who are "saved" are those who have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ who died on the cross to shed His blood for the sins of the world. Salvation is not of man, it is by the Grace of God. Jesus paid it ALL. Salvation is offered to ALL of mankind, some will receive it, but unfortunately some will not. No man will spend eternity in Hell because of his sins, but because he has rejected God's plan of forgiveness and Salvation...We ALL have free will, as did Adam and Eve. And they choose to sin. We have a choice to receive God's gift or reject it. Salvation is completely of God's design and He's given us the ability to place our faith in Christ and Him crucified or in something else. Jesus still did ALL the work necessary for anyone to receive God's great gift... Only after we are saved and indwelt/sealed by the Holy Spirit will we bring forth fruits and good works. We cannot earn (through our own works) God's forgiveness and Salvation. Our good works are created by the Holy Spirit within us.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Another important issue is that the thief, and other similar deathbed confessions, are the exception, not the rule. It really doesn't do much for your position to be continually using the example of the thief as though it proves without a doubt that faith alone saves.

Faith is not what saves. We are saved through the finished work of Christ on the cross. The Calvinist believes that man has no free will, and that God, before the foundation of the world, "choose" whom He would save, and the rest,would go into eternal damnation. This is not what the Bible teaches (it is heresy) Therefore we must conclude, that man (according to the Bible) has a free will to choose what he will put his faith in. You cannot have it both ways. Either man has free will or he does not. In the Old Testament and the New Testament, it's FAITH that God accounts for righteousness. What kind of faith, mans faith. (That's what God created within man, in order for him to choose who or what he would believe...) Man was not created a robot, he was created to have fellowship with God. Not forced to have a relationship...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

ha ha, give me a break.

What I am, is a very concise reader. In your question, you made no mention of this man turning to God, or showing any type of righteousness, nor any type of confession. According to your own words, the last thing that man did was stole.

I am posting again, just so you can read your own words once again.

Can a thief living in the year 2011, whos last works were stealing, be saved on his deathbed in the year 2011 under the NEW COVENANT with 5 minutes to live and no opportunity to produce any good works for God?

Yes or No?

As long as there is breath in the lungs and blood surging through the body, a man can be saved one minute before he dies. Christs Atonement covers ALL sins...


What was the last thing the second man on the cross did? Did Christ say that both thieves were going to be in paradise, or just the one.

Now then, let me give you a very firm warning. If I ever hear you make that accusation against one of our members, I will have your account suspended immediately for a gross violation of our TOS. As it stands, I have thick skin, so lets put this behind us and move on ok? Fair?

You asked a few questions, and I answered. Now, please show me the same courtesy and answer the questions I have asked you.

Grace and Peace,
Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

As long as there is breath in the lungs and blood surging through the body, a person can be saved within a matter of seconds before death. Christ's Atonement covers ALL sins. God's gift of Grace is offered any time a person places their faith in Christ. Salvation is not earned by the good works of man, but is a gift of God's Grace. Good works only follow AFTER one has become a child of God, not before...

 

[patience7]

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I would place what you have stated above, more in line with confession and pronouncing what is true through repentance. What this man did, was good, not evil and as such, spoke the truth boldly, but also in humility.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

The above sounds more like hope.

Patience,
My point was more about discernment as our fruits are known by not only what we say, but what we do. It would be easy to compare and contrast both thieves against Galatians 5 to see where their fruits originated from.

Honestly, I fear that we are becoming a society filled with dogma where doctrines are outweighing the totality of Scripture and we are loosing our ability to discern.

Hebrews 5:14 (NIV) But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

The fruits of the Spirit do not save us. They are the result of our spiritual growth. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is what saves us.

 

[Levi]

I'm sorry if you do not understand my point. Please do not be so quick to judge based upon a few words. This is why I dislike discussing theology and being forced to make one word statements...

Our response does not earn something. The gift is freely given. However, we can reject it by not responding to grace.

Once again your statement is an oxymoron. I would ask that you consider what it is you are saying.

If you can reject it and disqualify yourself on that basis, then how can you say that accepting it is not qualifying yourself?

Its an oxymoron!

You cant have a dollar each way on this one!

Faith or belief does not "qualify" you for anything, since it is not your own. Faith alone does not save, either. Do you think "faith" earns anything from God? Only God saves!

Let me make this clear. This is a complex issue

If you don't believe (have faith) then you are disqualified! therefore if you do believe you are qualified.

The rest of my statements where not irrelevant they dealt with the issue that faith is of God and it is in fact the catalyst of salvation.

This is a simple matter, it is man that complicates the truth and this reminds me of a simple piece of truth:

"in many words there is sin"

 

[francisdesales]

I completely disagree with your comments!

1. Just because I teach the true gospel of faith + grace alone, you claim that I reject Scripture, but the reality is that I am rejecting the Catholic gospel, not Scripture, and the 2 contradict each other.

I completely disagree with your comments.

The Bible nowhere says we are saved by faith alone. It states that we are NOT saved by faith alone. YOU contradict the Bible, my friend...

2. I have been told by other Catholics in the past that I bear false witness when I teach the true gospel and the reason is that Catholics believe and follow a false gospel taught by the Pope and other RCC leaders and not Scripture nor Jesus.

Well, those other Catholics are correct, you do bear false witness and teach a false gospel. You preach something that the Scriptures EXPLICITLY DENY!!!

As to what the Pope and other "RCC" leaders teach, you have no clue. That is clear by your attempt to associate a 'works related' idea of salvation to Catholics.

Again bearing false witness. You need to repent. If you can show me ONE SENTENCE in the Catechism that states what you imply, then you would be correct. Otherwise, you are shown to be just another arrogant and clueless Fundamentalist that pops up on this forum from time to time, speaking nice sounding-words that lead to perdition...

The insistence on one word answers was a good clue of this aspect of your ministry of bearing false witness against other Christians.

3. No! The Bible says we are saved by faith alone:

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Where does the word "alone" appear in that sentence? Could you give me one Bible translation that says "your faith ALONE saved you"?

Grammar does not require that this means "alone". Jesus could (and DID) mean that other things were involved, such as the action of the woman to touch the hem of Jesus. To risk being embarrassed or chastised by admitting it was she who did it. The ACT itself also "saved" her, since it describes the depth of her faith. Without the act, that faith does not save.

Or did you forget that James and a number of Paul's letters are part of Sacred Scriptures?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Once again your statement is an oxymoron. I would ask that you consider what it is you are saying.

Not at all. The issue is not a contradiction. It is a paradox, as many articles of the Christian faith happen to be. I have included a simple analogy that explains my point of view. I would ask that you re-read it and apply it, if you are really interested in figuring this out...

You cant have a dollar each way on this one!

I don't. You simply do not understand my point.

If you don't believe (have faith) then you are disqualified! therefore if you do believe you are qualified.

That is poor logic. There is a difference between ignorance and outright rejection. It is the later who will be condemned, as per John 3. Only those who reject the Gospel are disqualified. Those ignorant are in the hands of God, only He can judge whether they are "qualified" or not.

The rest of my statements where not irrelevant they dealt with the issue that faith is of God and it is in fact the catalyst of salvation.

I'm sorry, they are irrelevant to our discussion and area of disagreement.

Regards